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Thomas Dai

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2013, 01:22:20 PM »
"..be careful what you wish for with wanting an irrigation system. I have yet to see a golf course which doesn't over use its new toy to the point of ruining the course when getting a new irrigation system." Although I am unable to comment specially about the course at MdPCC, in general terms this is a very apt and preceptive statement from Jon.

All the best

Randy Thompson

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2013, 07:41:26 PM »
Randy,

No extreme is good and we should stress to keep the course as natural as possible but at the same time playable. That is why I would like to get rid of the trees.



Randy,

you seem to be suggesting that the course is unplayable. Can you explain how it is unplayable. Also, be careful what you wish for with wanting an irrigation system. I have yet to see a golf course which doesn't over use its new toy to the point of ruining the course when getting a new irrigation system. I would point out that the club has managed just fine without till now.

Jon
Jon,
You should have addressed this to Ricardo not me, I am against the instalation of the irrigation system and agree with your where your coming from but understand his point of view. which is that sometimes during the high season it is less playable and the overall experience suffers. I believe more tan half there membership uses the course only during summer and live some 500 kilometers from the club.

Ricardo,
!00 percent with you on the tree´s. Last time I was there, god was working on this and was doing a great job. I rememeber Sergio asking me about the dead one on ten I believe it was and i said, yes either cut it down or paint it Green and glue some leaves on it to make it at least look a live!!

Tom_Doak

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2013, 04:17:27 AM »
Our superintendent at the new project in New Zealand, who surfs, asked me if there was another fescue course in the world where the ocean was warm enough to go swimming after golf [without a wet suit].  I couldn't think of one, but I didn't know that Mar del Plata was fescue, so maybe it's the answer to his question.

Ben Jarvis

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2013, 04:32:02 AM »
Our superintendent at the new project in New Zealand, who surfs, asked me if there was another fescue course in the world where the ocean was warm enough to go swimming after golf [without a wet suit].  I couldn't think of one, but I didn't know that Mar del Plata was fescue, so maybe it's the answer to his question.

Tom

The Beach Course at Thirteenth Beach (Barwon Heads, Victoria, Australia) has predominantly fescue fairways.

The ocean adjacent to the golf course is definitely warm enough (in Summer at least) to swim without a wetsuit.
Twitter: @BennyJarvis
Instagram: @bennyj08

Jon Wiggett

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2013, 07:26:07 AM »
Our superintendent at the new project in New Zealand, who surfs, asked me if there was another fescue course in the world where the ocean was warm enough to go swimming after golf [without a wet suit].  I couldn't think of one, but I didn't know that Mar del Plata was fescue, so maybe it's the answer to his question.

Tom,

heat is not a decisive problem with fescue if ground is free draining in my experience but I do not know about humidity.

Jon

Steve Okula

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2013, 09:24:40 AM »
Our superintendent at the new project in New Zealand, who surfs, asked me if there was another fescue course in the world where the ocean was warm enough to go swimming after golf [without a wet suit].  I couldn't think of one, but I didn't know that Mar del Plata was fescue, so maybe it's the answer to his question.

Tom,

heat is not a decisive problem with fescue if ground is free draining in my experience but I do not know about humidity.

Jon

Sr. Calvo said:

"we've had times of terrible droughts (3 months without a drop), with very high temperatures (40 degrees celsius)"

Fescue simply won't survive that without water, even with water I'm sure it would be stressed to the point of death. Maybe you don't aprove of automatic irrigation, but I pity the man responsible for keeping 18 holes of fescue alive in those conditions  with a hose and plug in sprinklers. It might be an intersting study to see who succumbed first, the grass or the man. Is there anyone reading this who has managed fescue through three months of drought with 40°C + températures who could relate their experience?
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Jon Wiggett

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2013, 11:55:23 AM »
Our superintendent at the new project in New Zealand, who surfs, asked me if there was another fescue course in the world where the ocean was warm enough to go swimming after golf [without a wet suit].  I couldn't think of one, but I didn't know that Mar del Plata was fescue, so maybe it's the answer to his question.

Tom,

heat is not a decisive problem with fescue if ground is free draining in my experience but I do not know about humidity.

Jon

Sr. Calvo said:

"we've had times of terrible droughts (3 months without a drop), with very high temperatures (40 degrees celsius)"

Fescue simply won't survive that without water, even with water I'm sure it would be stressed to the point of death. Maybe you don't aprove of automatic irrigation, but I pity the man responsible for keeping 18 holes of fescue alive in those conditions  with a hose and plug in sprinklers. It might be an intersting study to see who succumbed first, the grass or the man. Is there anyone reading this who has managed fescue through three months of drought with 40°C + températures who could relate their experience?

Steve,

and yet they still have fescue through the green and no irrigation! Sorry to be blunt but I know you to be wrong from personal experience. Not quite 3 months, just 9 weeks of 40+ but also fairly constant warm wind through much of this time. Do you have much experience of dealing with fescue in arid conditions?
Jon

Jon Wiggett

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2013, 11:56:57 AM »
Randy,

No extreme is good and we should stress to keep the course as natural as possible but at the same time playable. That is why I would like to get rid of the trees.



Randy,

you seem to be suggesting that the course is unplayable. Can you explain how it is unplayable. Also, be careful what you wish for with wanting an irrigation system. I have yet to see a golf course which doesn't over use its new toy to the point of ruining the course when getting a new irrigation system. I would point out that the club has managed just fine without till now.

Jon
Jon,
You should have addressed this to Ricardo not me, I am against the instalation of the irrigation system and agree with your where your coming from but understand his point of view. which is that sometimes during the high season it is less playable and the overall experience suffers. I believe more tan half there membership uses the course only during summer and live some 500 kilometers from the club.

Ricardo,
!00 percent with you on the tree´s. Last time I was there, god was working on this and was doing a great job. I rememeber Sergio asking me about the dead one on ten I believe it was and i said, yes either cut it down or paint it Green and glue some leaves on it to make it at least look a live!!


Sorry for the mix up Randy,


I hope that Ricardo might comment on this then

Steve Okula

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2013, 01:09:11 PM »
Our superintendent at the new project in New Zealand, who surfs, asked me if there was another fescue course in the world where the ocean was warm enough to go swimming after golf [without a wet suit].  I couldn't think of one, but I didn't know that Mar del Plata was fescue, so maybe it's the answer to his question.

Tom,

heat is not a decisive problem with fescue if ground is free draining in my experience but I do not know about humidity.

Jon

Sr. Calvo said:

"we've had times of terrible droughts (3 months without a drop), with very high temperatures (40 degrees celsius)"

Fescue simply won't survive that without water, even with water I'm sure it would be stressed to the point of death. Maybe you don't aprove of automatic irrigation, but I pity the man responsible for keeping 18 holes of fescue alive in those conditions  with a hose and plug in sprinklers. It might be an intersting study to see who succumbed first, the grass or the man. Is there anyone reading this who has managed fescue through three months of drought with 40°C + températures who could relate their experience?

Steve,

and yet they still have fescue through the green and no irrigation! Sorry to be blunt but I know you to be wrong from personal experience. Not quite 3 months, just 9 weeks of 40+ but also fairly constant warm wind through much of this time. Do you have much experience of dealing with fescue in arid conditions?
Jon

With fescue in those conditions? No. But I've managed bermudagrass and bentgrass in those conditions, both in Andalucia Spain and Antalya Turkey, and I know for a fact that even the bermudagrass wouldn't survive nine weeks of 40° plus conditions with no rain and no irrigation, so I'm sure fescue wouldn' either.

I'd be interested to learn where in the world you managed fescue fairways at 40°C + for nine weeks with no rain or irrigation.

Perhaps Sr; Calvo could elaborate on summer conditons in Buenos Aires, but he did say the following:

You never ever get a nice lie in the Old Course of MPGC.

Regarding irrigation, we've had times of terrible droughts (3 months without a drop), with very high temperatures (40 degrees celsius). And this in the high season when all the members that live far away go for vacation. You end up playing on concrete. I don't want the course to become a grass cushion, but at least it needs some grass, not rock. Irrigation should be used only scarcely, in these extreme situations. You may answer that we should accept those conditions, but when that means that 100% of the time that you use the club in the entire year or during 2 years, you have to play under those conditions, believe me: it's not nice at all.

It sounds to me like he is calling the conditions unacceptable, if you "never ever get a nice lie" in the fairways, even in the rainy season. Also he says "at least it needs some grass", from which I infer there is none, at least at certain times of the year.

If installing an automatic irrigation system results in making conditions worse, then that's the fault of the management, not the tool.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Jon Wiggett

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2013, 06:31:23 PM »
Post modified as there is just no point in going down this road

« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 06:17:11 AM by Jon Wiggett »

Randy Thompson

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2013, 08:20:20 PM »
There is fescue and a lot other grasses in those fairways. at least there was ten years ago. Forty degree celcius happens there but it´s not the norm,,one or two warm fronts per year can hit those temperaturas and its for a couple of days and then it changes. The nights are generally cool. Green bases are not fescue and Ricardo never stated that, but are mainly composed of a native paspalm. If I had to guess the average - high temps of the three month summer temperaturas it would be around 30 or less? If it really means a lot to you, somebody can look it up on the internet.

Randy Thompson

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2013, 08:31:36 PM »
ok I bit, from the ihternet:
The warm season lasts from December 11 to March 4 with an average daily high temperature above 24°C. The hottest day of the year is January 14, with an average high of 27°C and low of 15°C.
from Randy:
AVG temps for the three month period seem to be near 25 Celcius highs and 14 at night lows...I´ll take that with Fescue even with some hot spells thrown for three or four days a couple of times a year.

Steve Okula

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2013, 06:47:54 AM »
Randy,

Those are perfectly reasonable températures to be growing fescue, unlike torrid Switzerland.

I see that they get the most precipitation during the summer months, averaging around 100mm/mo from October through April and peaking in March. So it would seem that three dry months of 40° C would be unlikely.

The point I'd like to make is that automatic irrigation is a tool, in certain situations an indispensable one. I for one don't think of it as a "toy", and you can't blame the technology for people abusing it.

In 99% of the world, it's not enough just to seed fescue and let nature take its course.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Ricardo Ramirez Calvo

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2013, 02:10:48 PM »
Sorry folks for the delay in responding, but I had a wonderful golf weekend with friends (26 in total) and no wifes at Miramar, a few kilometers south of Mar del Plata.

I'll try to answer the different issues. When I said that the course becomes unplayable, I didn't mean it literally. We keep playing but the course turns hard as rock and you have the feeling of playing on a cart path. Imagine when you try to play a sandwedge over a bunker under those conditions. Even the rough, which is an essential part of the game, almost dissapears. You end up asking for the ball to go into the rough, because during those difficult years you get a more decent lie there than on the fairway.

Let me be clear on this: I don't want to have bermuda grasses at MPGC and I love difficult lies and linkslike playing conditions. But having played at Royal St. George's for the past 5 years at the end of the summer, the conditions I described on MPGC are completely different.

Regarding average temperatures, they are a bit misleading. It depends on the year and it has changed a lot. In the past, when I was young, you always had to wear a sweater at nights. That is no longer the case. To give you an example of the last difficult year, in January 2012 the average minimum temperature was 20.6 C and the highest average temperature was 31.7 C. The highest temperature in the month was 38.8 C and the lowest maximum temperature was 26.0 C. There were only 2 days in which there was no sun. Total precipitation during the month was 46 mm and the maximum amount of rain in one day was only 11 mm. There were 20 days in the month in which the temperature was equal or higher than 30 C, 6 of which had temperatures higher than 35 C and 4 higher than 37. Beautiful weather for the beach, but not so much to have good playing conditions. Also bear in mind that those torrid days the wind came from the North, which is a very warm and dry wind.

Having said that and with the caveat that I am a lawyer and not a golf course superintendent or architect, I would only use an irrigation system to cope those extreme conditions which happen every 5 or 6 years. However, you should not worry about it, because: 1) I was outvoted at the board when I proposed it and 2) the club has no money to install an irrigation system (which can cost approximately USD 500.000, an amount completely out of the reach).

About trees, Sergio not only did not cut the big dead tree at the 9th, but he planted many more trees around the course. I hope life gives me the chance of cutting them down.

On Lou Duran's question about the Red course of the Jockey Club, it is simply called the Red. When you talk about the Red Course in Argentina, everybody knows you are talking about the Jockey Club. It is difficult to draw a comparison between the Red Course and the Old Course MPGC. They are very different. The Red Course is a product of man, a very well designed and strategic course, but not natural. It's a wonderful and very difficult test of golf. The Old Course is a natural course, much more similar to British course which arise from the terrain, rather than being carved out of it. That's why I hate trees being added to it, because they destroy its very essence. It's a very short course for today's standards, with only 6,082 yards from the championship tees. However, when the wind blows it can be quite brutal.

Although very traditional, Argentine golf has not grown very much in the last years. There are only 60,000 active players in the country, with approximately 380 courses. The great performance of Argentine players abroad (mainly Cabrera with 2 majors) has had little impact on the growth of the sport.

Ricardo

Ricardo

Jon Wiggett

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2013, 05:33:22 PM »
Ricardo,
Thanks for the answer and clarifying. I can understand why you might want an irrigation system but hope if you do get one you have a very strict limit on the water usage.

Steve,

The area of Wallis between Susten and Brig has a medetirainen climate. Back in 2003 most of Europe experienced a very hot and dry summer. From the middle of June that year until the end of August temperatures in the high 30’s each day and 40C on most. There was no rainfall at all during this time and very often a foehn wind which is a warm south wind that blows at a constant rate. There were several bad forest fires that year due to the drought and our irrigation water reached 27C.

The golf course was wall to wall fescue built on a sandy free draining soil. We had large areas of the fairways that were not irrigated and they received no water from the last rainfall in May till it rained in September. Although it went dormant , had the colour of straw and we did not have to mow it for the best part of 5 weeks after it rained these areas picked up no problem.

I am basing my statements on actually experience of the conditions discussed. You admit to having no personal experience of such situation and are basing your opinions on text books and a comparison with Bermuda which is a completely different season as far as I am aware and the much shorter rooting Bent which reacts totally differently to heat and drought stress.

Text books are the collective knowledge discovered through the experience of the contributors. Text books are theoretical information which is updated and corrected through experience and new discoveries. Experience however is practical is usually preferable.

I have often enjoyed your contributions to this website but to be frank your lack of open-mindedness over a theme in which you admit to having no practical experience does surprise me. Instead of calling those who do not agree with your opinion liars and making petty little remarks I would have expected an educated man to be interested in new topics. I wonder if you are capable of looking past your prejudices.

Jon

Andrew Lewis

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2013, 06:22:02 PM »

On Lou Duran's question about the Red course of the Jockey Club, it is simply called the Red. When you talk about the Red Course in Argentina, everybody knows you are talking about the Jockey Club. It is difficult to draw a comparison between the Red Course and the Old Course MPGC. They are very different. The Red Course is a product of man, a very well designed and strategic course, but not natural. It's a wonderful and very difficult test of golf. The Old Course is a natural course, much more similar to British course which arise from the terrain, rather than being carved out of it. That's why I hate trees being added to it, because they destroy its very essence. It's a very short course for today's standards, with only 6,082 yards from the championship tees. However, when the wind blows it can be quite brutal.

Although very traditional, Argentine golf has not grown very much in the last years. There are only 60,000 active players in the country, with approximately 380 courses. The great performance of Argentine players abroad (mainly Cabrera with 2 majors) has had little impact on the growth of the sport.

Ricardo


Dear Ricardo -

If my maths and population assumptions are correct, golfers in Argentina stand at something like one or two tenths of a percent of the population, whereas the US that number is somewhere around 8 percent. 

Beyond the courses and the land, I would be interested in additional thoughts from you on the comparison/contrast between MPGC and Jockey -- and other prominent clubs, for that matter -- in relation to their respective visions and aspirations for growing the game of golf in the country.  Do they play active roles at the national level?  If so, does the nature, type and level of involvement differ by club?

This is of interest due to the recently increased collaboration amongst Augusta National, the USGA and PGA on a grow the game effort here in the US.

Separately, I must say that the afternoon I spent on the Red a couple years ago was one of my favorite all-time golf experiences!  I played with a couple past club champions and one of their friends and, as enjoyable as I found the course and their company, perhaps the most memorable aspect of the visit was discovering the drink "Quianti" after the round.

Please do continue to post more comments and pictures on the clubs of Argentina, as your perspective is a real treasure.

Cheers, Andrew

Lou_Duran

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2013, 06:23:08 PM »
Although very traditional, Argentine golf has not grown very much in the last years. There are only 60,000 active players in the country, with approximately 380 courses. The great performance of Argentine players abroad (mainly Cabrera with 2 majors) has had little impact on the growth of the sport.

Thanks for your reply.  I am surprised; 158 active players per course.  I suspect that the figure for the U.S. is 10 times that.  To what do you attribute the paltry participation rate?  Economics or culture?  I would be curious to know the numbers pre-Peron.  Is there a movement within the golfing community to grow the game?

During my only visit to the Jockey Club, I was surprised at the overall condition of the facility.  The economic distress of the country didn't seem to spare this great club.  Here's hoping for better things in the future.

Ricardo Ramirez Calvo

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2013, 06:32:08 PM »
It's difficult to tell. It might be a mixture of different reasons. Golf has always been viewed as an elitist sport but, more important, as a sport for old people. My friends at school looked at me as some kind of freak for playing golf during my adolescence. Economy also plays its part but I wouldn't say it's the main factor. The Argentine Golf Association is trying to promote the game. Right now, they are exploring the possibility of signing agreements with universities, to promote golf among the students.
Ricardo

Bill_McBride

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2013, 07:54:57 PM »
Although very traditional, Argentine golf has not grown very much in the last years. There are only 60,000 active players in the country, with approximately 380 courses. The great performance of Argentine players abroad (mainly Cabrera with 2 majors) has had little impact on the growth of the sport.

Thanks for your reply.  I am surprised; 158 active players per course.  I suspect that the figure for the U.S. is 10 times that.  To what do you attribute the paltry participation rate?  Economics or culture?  I would be curious to know the numbers pre-Peron.  Is there a movement within the golfing community to grow the game?

During my only visit to the Jockey Club, I was surprised at the overall condition of the facility.  The economic distress of the country didn't seem to spare this great club.  Here's hoping for better things in the future.

I suspect Mexico and the South American countries have similar participation rates.   Golf has always been a game for the upper classes in those countries with income inequality as A fact of life.   Lou, this is not a political statement, just an observation. 

Like Spain with Seve and Argentina with Cabrera, the top players generally came out of the caddy ranks rather than the club memberships. 

Ricardo Ramirez Calvo

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2013, 07:55:41 PM »
Some pics of Miramar Links, some 500 km South of Buenos Aires. No trees in the course only a few bushes. Those visible as out of bounds.

The Clubhouse. In the second pic the Ocean can be seen on the right.





Looking back from the first green.



The ninth. The green is between the bunkers and the fence on the right. It runs parallel to the Ocean.



The ninth green, full of movement.



The green at the 14th.



The 17th green.



Another view of the same green, taken from the front. The wind hut in the back.



The same green with a different pin location on Sunday (yes, that's my ball for birdie).



A view from the tee at the 18th.



Ricardo

Ricardo Ramirez Calvo

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2013, 07:59:23 PM »
I suspect Mexico and the South American countries have similar participation rates.   Golf has always been a game for the upper classes in those countries with income inequality as A fact of life.   Lou, this is not a political statement, just an observation. 

Like Spain with Seve and Argentina with Cabrera, the top players generally came out of the caddy ranks rather than the club memberships. 

Bill,

Golf in Argentina is a bit more popular than in the rest of Latin America. In addition, in Argentina, unlike the rest of Latin America, there is a huge middle class. Income inequality is not as acute.
Ricardo

Bill_McBride

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2013, 08:08:39 PM »
I suspect Mexico and the South American countries have similar participation rates.   Golf has always been a game for the upper classes in those countries with income inequality as A fact of life.   Lou, this is not a political statement, just an observation. 

Like Spain with Seve and Argentina with Cabrera, the top players generally came out of the caddy ranks rather than the club memberships. 

Bill,

Golf in Argentina is a bit more popular than in the rest of Latin America. In addition, in Argentina, unlike the rest of Latin America, there is a huge middle class. Income inequality is not as acute.

Thanks for that.  Did I tell you what a wonderful week my wife and I spent in Buenos Aires?   We unwound every afternoon with a cocktail at Cafe Tortoni.   ;D

Lou_Duran

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2013, 09:30:09 PM »
I suspect Mexico and the South American countries have similar participation rates.   Golf has always been a game for the upper classes in those countries with income inequality as A fact of life.   Lou, this is not a political statement, just an observation. 

Like Spain with Seve and Argentina with Cabrera, the top players generally came out of the caddy ranks rather than the club memberships. 

You know Bill, with me everything is political.   :D

Income inequality, as your side would have it, is only a function of political choices and lucky sperm- the motivated, able, and privileged unwilling to "share" with the rest of us.  It just so happens that during the first half of the 20th century, before the populist Peron, Argentina had among the highest per capita income in the world (top 10 for sure).  Now that the wealth has been spread around, it ranks somewhere in the second 50.

If my understanding of history is correct, the roots of our game did not take hold in an egalitarian society.  I suspect that income inequality was very pronounced in the UK, as it was here during the Golden Era.  Its growth may have been aided by a growing middle class, but I am not sure that this is where its future lies.   

As a Hispanic, I find it perplexing that more of us have not fallen for the game.  Perhaps our temperament is not ideal for golf- reference the very talented but self-destructive Sergio Garcia.  I was hoping that Ricardo had some insights in this area of interest to me.  Comprende, amigo?


Jon Wiggett

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2013, 05:48:58 AM »
Great photos of the course Ricardo.

I guess on the point of being rock hard and its affect on playability it must have more to do with if the course design and maintenance regime are suited to having hard ground conditions rather than the hardness of the ground.

Jon

Ricardo Ramirez Calvo

Re: Golf clubs in Argentina
« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2013, 11:54:51 AM »
Bill,

I'm glad to hear that. I hope next time you come down we'll have already got rid of the thugs that currently govern us. Don't forget to tell me before you or any of your friends come.

Lou,

I can't agree more with your views of Argentine politics. All the constructions that make Buenos Aires such a wonderful city are the product of the a generation of leaders that you would call aristocratic (although in the strict sense of the word we have no aristocracy). Did you know that the Jockey Club was founded by Carlos Pellegrini, who was Vice President of the Republic from 1886 until 1890 and President from 1890 until 1892? Great man.


Jon,

I don't know if I follow you on that. The ground is generally sandy (linksland). The course never gets flooded even with the worst pourings and fast firm conditions are the rule. Never ever golf is played with winter rules at the Old Course. Although firm conditions must be the rule, in those extreme cases it's more than firmness. Please bear in mind that my opinion is the opinion of a member who lives 500 km away from the course and plays it when dry conditions are at a peak.

Ricardo

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