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ward peyronnin

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Harry Colt Homewirk( for the Nehterlands)
« on: May 07, 2013, 09:55:17 PM »
This July the Buda Cup will lead many of us to focus on Colt courses situated in the lo countries. Many have been restored by Frank Pont and others

Frank will you and maybe the Yank and others recommend sources I could reference to cultivate a better working knowledge of Colt's design characteristic, background etc.

Thx
Wardo
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Mike Policano

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Re: Harry Colt Homewirk( for the Nehterlands)
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2013, 10:08:45 PM »
Check out the book, Creating Classics - The Golf Courses of Haryy Colt

Scott Warren

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Re: Harry Colt Homewirk( for the Nehterlands)
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2013, 10:21:41 PM »
Ward,

Re: Colt's background and life. Look no further than Tony Muldoon's fantastic IMO piece on this very website:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/hs-colt-of-east-hendred-by-tony-muldoon/

Tom MacWood's Arts & Crafts series also provides some worthwhile reading:
(this is part one of five) http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/arts-and-crafts-golf-pg-i/

David Davis

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Re: Harry Colt Homework( for the Nehterlands)
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2013, 08:26:24 AM »
Ward,

Mike's suggested book is a good one for certain. I think if we are nice to him, Frank would also be willing to tell us about Colt from an architectural perspective on Tuesday evening during the dinner at Royal Hague. Frank?

Just purely for verification purposes...who's the Yank?

David
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Adam Lawrence

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Re: Harry Colt Homewirk( for the Nehterlands)
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2013, 09:20:13 AM »
Creating Classics is pretty, but fairly shallow. Hawtree's Colt & Co is not a perfect Colt biography, but is very much worth reading. It will cost a packet to get your hands on a copy, though.

Those going to Royal Hague should be aware it was designed by Colt's partner, Hugh Alison. There is not a great deal of really good info on Alison about. The archives here have some excellent stuff. I hesitate to plug my own work, but I am rather proud of the profile I did on Alison a couple of years ago. It is available online at http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Hugh-Alison-the-sadistic-sidekick/2052/Default.aspx
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

David Davis

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Re: Harry Colt Homewirk( for the Nehterlands)
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2013, 09:45:26 AM »
Yes I should also add that the BUDA is not only being played at Colt courses, especially if you are not staying the entire week with us:

Noordwijkse - Frank Pennink: it might be my home course and certainly is the top course in NL although I'm not a fan of his architecture per se. We have been graced with an amazing location and topography to work with. I would love to see what would be made of the course if the same property would have been given to Colt or even a modern day architect like Tom Doak.

Royal Hague - as Adam suggests is entirely designed by Alison and anyone knowing Colt's work and characteristics will immediately see this is not from him. In fact, although he is often credited with the design my understanding is that he never even set foot on the site as he was getting on in age and rather sick at that time having pretty much put a stop to all of his foreign travels.

International - this is credited to Ian Woosnan but in fact was completely designed (except for one bunker on the 18th hole) by the Belgian Bruno Steensels who I believe did a very nice job.

Kennemer was designed by Pennink and Colt. My understanding is the A and B 9's by Pennink and the C by Colt which I do find confusing as I've seen an original sketch from Colt where he all but mapped out the A 9 which is the only 9 used in it's entirety by the KLM Open.

De Pan is a classic Colt Heathland design and arguably one of his best works. Although I've not personally played them all.

Eindhoven, for anyone playing that on the Sunday is of course also a classic Colt design.

Swinkelsche is designed by Frank.

I guess this all just means more studying....

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Frank Pont

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Re: Harry Colt Homewirk( for the Nehterlands)
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2013, 11:19:47 AM »
Ward, another good starting point would be my interview with Ran 5 years ago (already):

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/interviewpont/

It explains about the differences between R Hague and the other Colt courses in Holland and a bunch more subjects. It also talks a bit about Pennink versus Colt. What many do not know is that Pennink also was a very good golfer, he was the first Half dutch golfer to play in the Ryder Cup (before the war, he lost all his matches though).

The original Course of Noordwijkse was designed by Colt, if you drive to the village from the current golf course you can still see some of the abandoned holes in the dunes. Supposedly it was quite a nice course....

David, Kennemer A holes are Pennink, B-C are Colt/Morisson. However holes a1 and a9 are also Colt/Morisson, and were built as a 3 loop practice course before the war ( the third hole a par 3 is now in use as a practice hole).

For most of the archies who have visited me over the years De Pan was their favorite course in Holland, due to great routing on small piece of land (only 125 acres) and intricate detailing. Eindhoven is somewhat of a sleeper, laid out over 250 acres it is expansive, but its bunkering is less sofisticated because Colt was not there to supervise it ( he had a disagreement on finances with Dr Philips ). For the record I am a member at both Pan and Eindhoven, so am biased......

I will give a good overview of Colt's ideas during our my talk at R Hague, using a lot of the material that Paul Turner and I presented last year in out first full day Colt seminar at Tandridge for the Colt clubs of GBI. ( plan is for Paul and me to do a similar Colt seminar for the US/Canadian Colt clubs later this year in the USA).

ward peyronnin

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Re: Harry Colt Homewirk( for the Nehterlands)
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2013, 02:43:22 PM »
Very much appreciated fellow pilgrims

I am starting this epic quest at Le Touquet and Hardelot and working up the coast so I envision a sort of Colt/Simpson fest if memory serves before I would have a chance to hear Frank so I crave prior knowledge to frame the journey properly.

The Yank is our own Sean Arble who is himself  a Colt affecianado ; witness our tour of Cline and Pennard at our Wales swing

Excitement builds
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Bill_McBride

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Re: Harry Colt Homewirk( for the Nehterlands)
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2013, 07:36:52 PM »
Very much appreciated fellow pilgrims

I am starting this epic quest at Le Touquet and Hardelot and working up the coast so I envision a sort of Colt/Simpson fest if memory serves before I would have a chance to hear Frank so I crave prior knowledge to frame the journey properly.

The Yank is our own Sean Arble who is himself  a Colt affecianado ; witness our tour of Cline and Pennard at our Wales swing

Excitement builds

I thought Pennard was Braid. 

ward peyronnin

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Re: Harry Colt Homewirk( for the Nehterlands)
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2013, 10:11:09 PM »
I stand corrected

Seems we played more than one Colt course that trip but I may be confusing then with the trip Ran, ted , and i made when we played Portrush, Delamere Forest, and others
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

ward peyronnin

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Re: Harry Colt Homewirk( for the Nehterlands)
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2013, 10:44:24 PM »
Re cheked rota
Colt
Le touquet
Zoute
dePans
Hague(nominally)
Seymour Dunne
Ostend
Hutchinson
Touquet
Thereafter
Buda lineup ======= Great Golgf
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

David Davis

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Re: Harry Colt Homewirk( for the Nehterlands)
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2013, 12:48:49 PM »
Ward,

That's a pretty good sampling. By the time you get to me at NGC you will be the expert on Colt. Please take lots of notes and when Frank is finished with his presentation you can tell us the truth... (ok, I'm kidding for the record. Frank's an expert on Colt and will happily fill in the blanks for us and more)

It's gonna be great!

For the record I really love the top 5 courses in NL but for me Noordwijkse is by far the best and the course that I held out for for years to become a member of when I knew them all. The two other courses that have grown on me the most over the years are Kennemer (KLM Open routing) and De Pan. If I could ever be a member of another course in NL it would be De Pan. It's not that far from my home for one but secondly it is architecturally one of the best in NL for sure and being a member of a great heathland and a great links would be my ultimate golf dream! Well outside of being a member of the R&A of course. That's only 3 memberships, not much to ask in the life of a golfer...will be curious what everyone thinks!

David
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

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www.lockharttravelclub.com

Paul_Turner

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Re: Harry Colt Homewirk( for the Nehterlands)
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2013, 03:32:32 PM »
Haven't got a lot to add other than that Frank uncovered an article that states that John Morrison routed Hague.  I've found some ads that have Alison credited as designer.  So I'm pretty sure it's a dual effort.

A walk through the abandoned Colt holes at Noordwijske was quite a puzzle.  There must have been some spectacular holes there and it's now mostly sandy waste,  blown out dunes with some hole corridors evident.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

David Davis

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Re: Harry Colt Homewirk( for the Nehterlands)
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2013, 03:37:47 PM »
Haven't got a lot to add other than that Frank uncovered an article that states that John Morrison routed Hague.  I've found some ads that have Alison credited as designer.  So I'm pretty sure it's a dual effort.

A walk through the abandoned Colt holes at Noordwijske was quite a puzzle.  There must have been some spectacular holes there and it's now mostly sandy waste,  blown out dunes with some hole corridors evident.

Paul, you must mean Kennemer right? To my knowledge Colt was never at Noordwijkse. As I mentioned he sketched out most of the A routing, Frank confirmed that too but I've also seen the original sketch which I found fascinating since those holes are accredited to Pennink I thought.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

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Frank Pont

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Re: Harry Colt Homewirk( for the Nehterlands)
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2013, 05:18:54 PM »
David,

Colt did the old course at Noordwijk, now abandoned, where the club played before they moved to the new course in the 70's. I think it might have been quite an exciting layout.

At Kennemer Colt did B+C, and Pennink did A. The A holes are two notches below the quality of B and C, the only reason they are used in the KLM routing is because of length and logistical reasons. I strongly urge the BUDA participants to play BC and only if time permits A as well !!

Frank Pont

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Re: Harry Colt Homewirk( for the Nehterlands)
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2013, 05:29:06 PM »
For the record I really love the top 5 courses in NL but for me Noordwijkse is by far the best and the course that I held out for for years to become a member of when I knew them all. The two other courses that have grown on me the most over the years are Kennemer (KLM Open routing) and De Pan. If I could ever be a member of another course in NL it would be De Pan. It's not that far from my home for one but secondly it is architecturally one of the best in NL for sure and being a member of a great heathland and a great links would be my ultimate golf dream!
David

Don't believe everything David says about Noordwijkse  :)

Most of the archies I have shown it have characterised it as a missed chance. Its in great terrain for sure, but in my view the routing is not very strong, three of the par 3's are average to poor (to be fair the fourth par 3 ( the 17th) is world class) and the greens lack variety ( all false fronts). It is still a very good course, but in my opinion not nearly as good as Royal Hague ( if you do not believe me read what Ran, Mike Clayton and Adam Lawrence had to say about RH) . Most of the love N gets in Holland is from good players because its tough. In the last Dutch polls it has been trading the first spot with R Hague on and off, with Kennemer as a distant third and Pan as a close fourth.

It will be interesting to see what the BUDA participants think of all these courses!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 08:12:29 PM by Frank Pont »

David Davis

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Re: Harry Colt Homewirk( for the Nehterlands)
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2013, 06:43:21 PM »
David,

Colt did the old course at Noordwijk, now abandoned, where the club played before they moved to the new course in the 70's. I think it might have been quite an exciting layout.

At Kennemer Colt did B+C, and Pennink did A. The A holes are two notches below the quality of B and C, the only reason they are used in the KLM routing is because of length and logistical reasons. I strongly urge the BUDA participants to play BC and only if time permits A as well !!

Frank,

Next time we are at Kennemer I'll show you the sketched routing Colt made (it's an original) for the A course. It might be Pennink that put his name on it but Colt sketched out most of the holes before Pennink was born. Only the weakest hole #6 was a result of Pennink if I'm not mistaken.

Not 100% sure about the old property NGC housed, never seen it myself.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

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www.lockharttravelclub.com

David Davis

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Re: Harry Colt Homewirk( for the Nehterlands)
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2013, 06:57:50 PM »
For the record I really love the top 5 courses in NL but for me Noordwijkse is by far the best and the course that I held out for for years to become a member of when I knew them all. The two other courses that have grown on me the most over the years are Kennemer (KLM Open routing) and De Pan. If I could ever be a member of another course in NL it would be De Pan. It's not that far from my home for one but secondly it is architecturally one of the best in NL for sure and being a member of a great heathland and a great links would be my ultimate golf dream!
David

Don't believe everything David says about Noordwijkse  :)

Most of the archies I have shown it have characterised it as a missed chance. Its in great terrain for sure, but in my view the routing is not very strong, three of the par 3's are average to poor (to be fair the fourth par 3 ( the 17th) is world class) and the greens lack variety ( all false fronts). It is still a very good course, but in my opinion not nearly as good as Royal Hague ( if you do not believe me read what Ran, Mike Clayton and Adam Lawrence had to say about it) . Most of the love it gets in Holland is from good players because its tough, in the last Dutch polls it was been trading the first spot with R Hague on and off, with Kennemer as a distant third and Pan as a close fourth.

It will be interesting to see what the BUDA participants think of all these courses!

Ha ha, I'm tempted to enter this debate but I will refrain as I want the gentlemen to come up with their own unbiased opinions. However, you better go back and read what Mr. Doak wrote about my photo tour on NGC. It suggests something slightly different than the highly negative light you've painted above. As for Mr. Clayton and Mr. Lawrence I've heard no negative comments yet but I'm happy to entertain them all with an open mind as long as it's as we say straight from the horses mouthes.

I will say that if you find NGC's par 3's to be average to poor then you should get out and play some more top courses and come back and visit again as that's not an argument you can win and I don't buy that anyone or archie will agree with that statement. There can always be improvements but average to poor...no chance.

Also you should clearly state that you have been personally working on renovations at all the courses except Noordwijkse which slightly further taints your objectivity. ;-)

We shall see what the treehouse thinks and have some fun debates.

Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Frank Pont

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Re: Harry Colt Homewirk( for the Nehterlands)
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2013, 07:00:52 PM »
David,

I discovered the sketch you are talking about some 9 years ago together with the clubs historian Dolf Cox. Last I seen it was hanging downstairs in hall leading to the mens lockerrooms. The routing is very rough and has, other than hole 6, many differences with what is there now. Less bunkers than in BC, less sophisticated green complexes. Its a good example that a good routing is essential for a good course, but not a guarantee. To be frank Frank Pennink was a number of levels less talented than Colt et al, and it clearly shows on the A holes. Having worked on many of his courses in Holland I am very familiar with his qualities (see my interview with Ran if you want to learn more about that subject). The two best holes are both Morisson, and were already built before the war, namely a9 and a1 (a8 is also an exciting par 3 done by Pennink). It would be neat to sometime in my life get a chance to reroute and rebuild the A loop to the same quality as BC, but I'm not holding my breath  :) Have walked the property on seperate occaisions with Clayton, Doak and Schneider and the consensus seemed to be that its not easy but can be done a whole lot better than what is there now.

On the Noordwijk old course, ask some of the older members of Noordwijk to show you the site sometime, its a wild and fun walk I have been told by Paul Turner. Maybe fellow N me,ber Chris Veldkamp can get you some old Dutch Golf Magazine articles about it.

Frank Pont

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Re: Harry Colt Homewirk( for the Nehterlands)
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2013, 07:17:09 PM »
For the record I really love the top 5 courses in NL but for me Noordwijkse is by far the best and the course that I held out for for years to become a member of when I knew them all. The two other courses that have grown on me the most over the years are Kennemer (KLM Open routing) and De Pan. If I could ever be a member of another course in NL it would be De Pan. It's not that far from my home for one but secondly it is architecturally one of the best in NL for sure and being a member of a great heathland and a great links would be my ultimate golf dream!
David

Don't believe everything David says about Noordwijkse  :)

Most of the archies I have shown it have characterised it as a missed chance. Its in great terrain for sure, but in my view the routing is not very strong, three of the par 3's are average to poor (to be fair the fourth par 3 ( the 17th) is world class) and the greens lack variety ( all false fronts). It is still a very good course, but in my opinion not nearly as good as Royal Hague ( if you do not believe me read what Ran, Mike Clayton and Adam Lawrence had to say about it) . Most of the love it gets in Holland is from good players because its tough, in the last Dutch polls it was been trading the first spot with R Hague on and off, with Kennemer as a distant third and Pan as a close fourth.

It will be interesting to see what the BUDA participants think of all these courses!

Ha ha, I'm tempted to enter this debate but I will refrain as I want the gentlemen to come up with their own unbiased opinions. However, you better go back and read what Mr. Doak wrote about my photo tour on NGC. It suggests something slightly different than the highly negative light you've painted above. As for Mr. Clayton and Mr. Lawrence I've heard no negative comments yet but I'm happy to entertain them all with an open mind as long as it's as we say straight from the horses mouthes.

I will say that if you find NGC's par 3's to be average to poor then you should get out and play some more top courses and come back and visit again as that's not an argument you can win and I don't buy that anyone or archie will agree with that statement. There can always be improvements but average to poor...no chance.

Also you should clearly state that you have been personally working on renovations at all the courses except Noordwijkse which slightly further taints your objectivity. ;-)

We shall see what the treehouse thinks and have some fun debates.



David,

Not negative on Noordwijk, as I stated in my earlier mail I think it is a very good course, just wanted to indicate that the course has weaknesses after your frequent postings here that it is by far the best course in Holland. On that point I politely disagree, and give the reasons why. You might not agree, that is OK, and why you are a happy member at Noordwijk.

With regard to Ran, Adam and Mike I was talking about them liking R Hague very much rather than disliking Noordwijk, with Adam and Mike stating on numerous occaisions that R Hague is their top pick in Europe with Morfontaine. Ran put it in his world top 50. I do not know what they think about Noordwijk, but I guess they do not rank it higher than R Hague.

On me working on R Hague, I thought that is common knowledge, but for those not aware of that I have been involved with the green, bunker and tee renovation works at Royal Hague, with the exception of green 18. I have also been working at De Pan, Eindhoven, Toxandria, De Dommel, Amsterdam Old, Kennemer (until 2012)  all Colt, and Hoge Kleij, Gelpenberg, Edese ( all Pennink). I have never worked on Noordwijk and Hilversum, where Martin Ebert and Kyle Philips are resident archies.

Like yourself I am very much looking forward to meeting all the BUDA participants and getting feedback on the courses being played!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 07:26:22 PM by Frank Pont »

Frank Pont

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Re: Harry Colt Homewirk( for the Nehterlands)
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2013, 08:20:36 PM »
This July the Buda Cup will lead many of us to focus on Colt courses situated in the lo countries. Many have been restored by Frank Pont and others

Frank will you and maybe the Yank and others recommend sources I could reference to cultivate a better working knowledge of Colt's design characteristic, background etc.

Thx
Wardo
Ward,

the discussion with David made me ask myself the question, would the BUDA participants like to see descriptions of the courses with pics and discussions on their strengths and weaknesses before they play them, or would they rather have a blank slate when they arrive?

If they would I could put together some tours with pics made in May/June (David could also chip in if he has the time).

David Davis

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Re: Harry Colt Homewirk( for the Nehterlands)
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2013, 03:50:24 PM »
I'd prefer to let people have a blank slate to be honest. I think it's more fun that way and to kind of have round table discussion later. We can do that at dinner on Monday and Tuesday night.

Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com