Softening green contours when switching from bent to ultradwarf?

[Ed Oden]

I think it will be really interesting w the bermuda.  Greens will have to be significantly tempered.

This statement from John Shimp regarding Quail Hollow nudged me to start a thread that I've procrastinated on for awhile now.  To what degree have courses that switched from bent to one of the ultradwarfs had to recontour their greens?  If the greens at your course needed to be "significantly tempered" in order to handle the increased speeds that can be produced by the new Bermuda grasses, is that a trade off you would be willing to make?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ed,

Are you presuming the bent had to be kept soggy to stay alive?  If not, bent is still as fast as any bermuda, if maintained the same.  

So, net, net, I have not experienced softening green contours with a turf switch, but I have softened greens just to work in the +10 green speeds so common now, vs. the original design anticipated 7-9.

This reminds me of what TePaul used to say around here - on an existing course, go out and measure the slope of the steepest puttable area, and then make the new contours just a shade under that.  Also, measure the worst areas to see what, at your green speeds, the field measurements tell you is too much % of slope.  If a borderline green area shows sloping at 2.7%, then max out at 2.6%, or maybe 2.5% to allow for a little construction error, etc.

[Greg Holland]

A few courses in the Triad have gone to ultradwarf bermuda, and I am pretty sure that green contours were "tempered" for the new grass.  I do not know how much in terms of grade -- and the new greens still can wreak havoc, but I was told they were softened. 

I know Kris Spence and others that post on here have made some of these changes, so maybe they can tell us what happens in the field.

[BCrosby]

At our club in ATL we have 36 holes. We have converted one course to u/d with minimal changes in green contours, though in hindsight there are a couple we probably should have softened.

We are looking to convert the other course in a couple of years. Members love the u/d and play is getting unbalanced between the two courses in favor of the converted 18. Plus, conversion just makes sense long term. (See Quail Hollow, East Lake, AAC, etc.) We plan to soften contours on 6 or 7 greens on the 18 yet to be converted.

Bob

[Randy Thompson]

I agree with Jeff!

[Kris Spence]

Ed, we are currently working on several and have completed 8 or 10 over the last three years.  Bent to UD conversion has really gained traction in NC, SC and southeastern VA and I think we are going to see the UD greens takeover the region unless something crazy happens in the winter soon.

Most all of the bent green I have designed and built over the last 15 years are suitable to convert without any slope modifications.  As a general rule, we range our hole locations between 1% and 3.5% depending on the section of green they are located in.  I want at least 1% to make sure the surface drainage keeps moving off the surface and 3.5% is getting up there if the green is running near 12.  You also have to factor in cross slopes, so if back to front is 3% the side slope would need to be 1.5% or so, every green is different depending on design characteristics.

We are currently converting Rock Hill CC in SC, the front 9 holes are original Tillinghast and the back 9 Porter Gibson.  On the Tilly 9 the existing slopes range 0 to 4% as a general rule, the flat areas are our biggest concern. Most of the Tilly features will go back in just as they are with considerable work along the edges and just off the greens to restore surface drainage and integration from green onto the surrounds.

 I have been working with Memphis CC for several years now, they run their Champion greens between 12 and 13 on a daily basis during the growing season.  There are hole locations used regularly there in the 3.5 to 4.2% range.  I did a test with a green running 13 and the ball would roll up a slope and not turn around and come back at 4.2, anything above that the ball would retreat back to some degree.  Putting from above the hole at those slopes was damn near impossible to stop within 6 to 10 feet if you hit it at all.

At Camden we changed from Tifeagle to Mini Verde.  There were large sections of those green clearly intended for hole locations that exceeded 7% and some as high as 10%.  Several green over 70% of the green would not retain a ball if running over 10 stimp.  We softened them considerably but kept most of the green in the highest range we felt comfortable with.  I would say most of the cupping areas there are between 2.5 and 4.2%.  The CGA just completed the 4 ball tournament last week there and the players gave the green high marks.  The scores were the highest in the history of the tournament which I attribute to increased firmness and the use of reclaimed hole locations near bunkers and fill slopes.

In case your wondering, you could "no till" Carolina without any changes in my opinion!!

[Lou_Duran]

Ed,

Are you guys contemplating a conversion?  Unless it is agronomically impossible to maintain the fine bent greens I played during my visit for most of the year, RESIST!

I've played on many conversions including Jeff's redo of his redo at Great Southwest, and UDs, Champions in this case, are no panacea.  The claim that they putt "like near-bent" is only true if $$$$ are spent in maintenance.  To date, I've seen only a couple courses that have delivered on the promise, and only for part of the year.  Most courses do bank on the second promise- that they are cheaper to maintain than bent- and the results show it.  I know that some of the experts here believe that grain is inherent in all the grasses and that UDs can minimize its effect while still saving money, I just haven't seen it.

More to your question, holding everything equal, I think the chipping and pitching is also more difficult on UDs, particularly when the grain and thatch are problems.  I think that reading the contours correctly (speed is more of an issue, particularly into or across the grain) is more difficult.

I've talked to some members at Mira Vista in Fort Worth and they opine that their conversion (contours were not touched) made the course 2-3+ strokes more difficult.  I wonder if there is any data from course ratings that speak to this.

[Chris Cupit]

At our club in ATL we have 36 holes. We have converted one course to u/d with minimal changes in green contours, though in hindsight there are a couple we probably should have softened.

We are looking to convert the other course in a couple of years. Members love the u/d and play is getting unbalanced between the two courses in favor of the converted 18. Plus, conversion just makes sense long term. (See Quail Hollow, East Lake, AAC, etc.) We plan to soften contours on 6 or 7 greens on the 18 yet to be converted.

Bob

Not to be argumenative  but wasn't play pretty unbalanced prior to the change already?  I always assumed the north course got a lot more play.  At AAC they have the opposite problem--way unbalanced on the Riverside course (the bent).  Their issue is that Highlands is just too hard especially with the ud greens now.  I assume play will stay unbalanced over there as members will still prefer Riverside to Highlands.

Which greens on the north would you soften if you could?

For others, we are talking about Atlanta courses and ultradwarfs are certainly firmer and faster most of the year (if not close to all the time) than bent in our area. 

I like the bermudas OK but I love my contours more and would hate to lose them   I also don't buy the notion that one can "bake the cake" to a certain degree and slow down the ultradwarfs enough to retain significant contours.

I do envy the notion that you are getting ready for the summer and awesome growing conditions and I'm hoping for continued cool weather and unfortunately 90 days of many sleepless nights!

[BCrosby]

Chris -

We went from a North/South play ratio of 52/48 to about 59/41 over the last couple of years. It would have skewed more to North if there were available tee times there.

Greens I wish we had softened on North? - The 6th, 14th and 15th. We might have reduced the back to front tilt a little on those greens.

One of the ironies of u/d's is that because you can maintain them at very, very fast speeds virtually year round, they are maintained at very fast speeds year round. You do it because you can... or something. The temptation appears to be irresistable. My suggestions that we slow them down for regular play has not gained much traction. 

Bob

 

[Ed Oden]

Kris and Lou, my question was a general one and not specific to Carolina.  We have no plans to switch from bent to an ultradwarf.  Our greens have been as good as anywhere in the area for the last few years, which is a real tribute to our Super, Matthew Wharton (who occasionally posts here), and his staff.  That being said, I think it would be foolish for any club, even those like ours that are doing well with bent, not to keep up with what is going on in the ultradwarf world just in case we are not so fortunate in the future. 

[Mike_Young]

I have found that most courses that are concerned with softer contours due to ultradwarfs are doing so for the dormant months when ultradwarfs speed can run exceedingly high.  Just don't put the pins there...

[Kris Spence]

Ed, I certainly wasn't suggesting UD at Carolina, just that the contours are in place.  I find myself on the fence most of the time as to whether Bent or UD is the right choice.  I'm working on a new course project in NC at the moment and I go back and forth as to which surface to plant.  I'm watching the ones that have already converted closely to see how they perform several years down the road.  I can tell you this, most of the guys I know that have converted, have told me they underestimated the commitment required with the verticutting, topdressing and aggressive mowing to keep them under control and performing at a high level.  UD's are not for every course and every budget!!! 

[Chris Cupit]

I have found that most courses that are concerned with softer contours due to ultradwarfs are doing so for the dormant months when ultradwarfs speed can run exceedingly high.  Just don't put the pins there...

If you can't pin some of the best locations.......

[jeffwarne]

I have found that most courses that are concerned with softer contours due to ultradwarfs are doing so for the dormant months when ultradwarfs speed can run exceedingly high.  Just don't put the pins there...

This whole thread makes me sad.........because most on this forum are the voices of reason in the silly, ego driven quest for higher speeds, bigger dicks, and more boring golf

Reducing tilt to accomodate speeds because "you can" may keep the putting challenge the same,
(although I would argue it takes far more skill to judge an uphill putt on a 4% slope stimping at 9 and then turn around and have the same putt downhill, than it does to judge the same putt on a 2% slope at 12+.
Uphill and downhill become almost the same  )

but reducing slope definitely negates angles for approach and the effect of shortsiding oneself where the green runs away.
I will grant that at least the bermuda replacing the bent is usually firmer so some of the tiltbounce loss is negated.

Why not accelerate the race to the bottom and just use polished concrete and 0% slope?
Stimp 'em at 40 and astroturf those fairways too

[Ed Oden]

Kris, I understand and know that you weren't suggesting we switch at Carolina.  I just included you in my reply to Lou since you had mentioned Carolina in your earlier post.

[Carson Pilcher]

At our club in ATL we have 36 holes. We have converted one course to u/d with minimal changes in green contours, though in hindsight there are a couple we probably should have softened.

We are looking to convert the other course in a couple of years. Members love the u/d and play is getting unbalanced between the two courses in favor of the converted 18. Plus, conversion just makes sense long term. (See Quail Hollow, East Lake, AAC, etc.) We plan to soften contours on 6 or 7 greens on the 18 yet to be converted.

Bob

Not to be argumenative  but wasn't play pretty unbalanced prior to the change already?  I always assumed the north course got a lot more play.  At AAC they have the opposite problem--way unbalanced on the Riverside course (the bent).  Their issue is that Highlands is just too hard especially with the ud greens now.  I assume play will stay unbalanced over there as members will still prefer Riverside to Highlands.

Which greens on the north would you soften if you could?

For others, we are talking about Atlanta courses and ultradwarfs are certainly firmer and faster most of the year (if not close to all the time) than bent in our area. 

I like the bermudas OK but I love my contours more and would hate to lose them   I also don't buy the notion that one can "bake the cake" to a certain degree and slow down the ultradwarfs enough to retain significant contours.

I do envy the notion that you are getting ready for the summer and awesome growing conditions and I'm hoping for continued cool weather and unfortunately 90 days of many sleepless nights!

Just an FYI....AAC is converting Riverside to Champion this Summer.

We converted Settindown to Champions at the end of last Summer.  As they were doing it, they thought about softening some of the contours on 1,10,16 and 17.  Thankfully, they decided to wait and see how they played before altering the contours.  I am glad they waited, but I have already putted one off the front of 16. 

[Chris Cupit]

I have found that most courses that are concerned with softer contours due to ultradwarfs are doing so for the dormant months when ultradwarfs speed can run exceedingly high.  Just don't put the pins there...

This whole thread makes me sad.........because most on this forum are the voices of reason in the silly, ego driven quest for higher speeds, bigger dicks, and more boring golf

Reducing tilt to accomodate speeds because "you can" may keep the putting challenge the same,
(although I would argue it takes far more skill to judge an uphill putt on a 4% slope stimping at 9 and then turn around and have the same putt downhill, than it does to judge the same putt on a 2% slope at 12+.
Uphill and downhill become almost the same  )

but reducing slope definitely negates angles for approach and the effect of shortsiding oneself where the green runs away.
I will grant that at least the bermuda replacing the bent is usually firmer so some of the tiltbounce loss is negated.

Why not accelerate the race to the bottom and just use polished concrete and 0% slope?
Stimp 'em at 40 and astroturf those fairways too

+100. 

[Rob Hallford]

Here in the Triangle, the switch is definitely on.  Hope Valley and Old Chatham have both switched and Duke is doing so this summer.  Talking to one of the pros at Duke yesterday, she said the green slopes "would not be touched".  Should be interesting as those greens do have quite a bit of slope, and as a public course, firmer/faster may lead to longer round times.

My experience playing Old Chatham last year was that front pins were inaccessible--the greens were too firm and fast and green surrounds were too soggy to allow a run-up shot (kind of like Bay Hill a few years ago).  As the greens continue to grow in, they seem to hold a bit better and the club has moved to improve drainage and firm up the green surrounds.  That in mind, the next year or two may be touch-and-go at Duke as the greens grow in; run-up shots are not an option on most holes out there  .

[jim_lewis]

I hope this thread stays on the first page a little longer. Good stuff.

[Ricardo Ramirez Calvo]

It's interesting to see the differences in views around the world. Here in Argentina, going from bent to ultradwarf greens would be seen as a downgrade. A club in the Buenos Aires area is making such move for cost reasons and there is a lot of resistance from the members. Bent is usually considered here as allowing faster greens than ultradwarf. For example,  it is considered impossible to switch from paspalum to bent on the Mackenzie greens of the Red course of the Jockey Club. Some 15 years ago, at another course with very good paspalum greens, they tried to change them to bent. Fortunately, the experiment failed. Those greens are prepared with Augusta speed for important tournaments with their natural paspalum grass, but they thought that changing them to bent would be an improvement.

[Bill_McBride]

Here in the Triangle, the switch is definitely on.  Hope Valley and Old Chatham have both switched and Duke is doing so this summer.  Talking to one of the pros at Duke yesterday, she said the green slopes "would not be touched".  Should be interesting as those greens do have quite a bit of slope, and as a public course, firmer/faster may lead to longer round times.

My experience playing Old Chatham last year was that front pins were inaccessible--the greens were too firm and fast and green surrounds were too soggy to allow a run-up shot (kind of like Bay Hill a few years ago).  As the greens continue to grow in, they seem to hold a bit better and the club has moved to improve drainage and firm up the green surrounds.  That in mind, the next year or two may be touch-and-go at Duke as the greens grow in; run-up shots are not an option on most holes out there  .

Hard greens and soggy surrounds, isn't that the worst possible combination in course maintenance?

[John Shimp]

I think Quail hollows specific situation may be a few large greens that tip pretty hard from back to front.  2, 4, maybe 7, 12, 13, 16 and maybe parts of 18 really drop and may be too steep for how the ultradwarf will be there (well maintained and fast like aac's were for the pga).

[Patrick_Mucci]

I have found that most courses that are concerned with softer contours due to ultradwarfs are doing so for the dormant months when ultradwarfs speed can run exceedingly high. 

Mike,

Can't that be controlled by higher mowing cuts ?

Just don't put the pins there...

[Mike_Young]

Pat,
Ask TN to be sure but I think once it goes dormant it just get faster and faster because there is nothing to cut and it gets thinner...

[Anthony_Nysse]

Once an dwarf or ultradwarf goes dormant, there is very little that can be done to slow the greens down until they start to grow again. Most Superintendents will start raising the heights before the first frost to protect the canopy for the winter months. It's not uncommon to mow at .150+ in the winter months and roll 12'+. Once they go dormant, any mow or roll is just making them quicker. If you're not careful, they can get out of control. Watering doesn't really do much but saturate the soil and make for a mess because it takes so long to dry that time of year.
  TPC Sawgrass softened several slopes in 2006 when they converted from tifdwarf to Mini Verde. Pete also came back and softened a few more in 2009.

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