What am I missing about Quail Hollow?

[Jay Flemma]

I haven't been there in person.  I've only seen it on TV.  But my visceral reaction from that limited view point is that I just don't get some of the holes anywhere near as much as the broadcast and the players seem to.  Is Quail really all they say it is?  All I hear all broadcast is it's worthy of a major, they treat the players really well, and Green Mile, Green Mile, Green Mile.  It looks to me a lot like Atlanta Athletic Club, too much water, too long, too many trees, and too penal.  It doesn't seem to have a lot of character.  And I can't stand looking at the 18th hole, it seems an eyesore to me, with that muddy creek running perpendicularly down the center.  15 does nothing for me either. It doesn't look like anything I haven't seen before, except 18 which I hope to never see again!  

Is Quail over-rated?  If so, is it over-rated for the worst of reasons - i.e. because they really bend over backwards to provide swag bags of ridiculous size to the players?  (like BMW rental cars and expensive wine gift bags?)  

I don't know much about George Cobb's architecture, but I do know we don't talk much about him on GCA.com.  What other courses of significance has he designed?  We don't seem to have many threads about Quail.  We don't even have one going now other than the conditioning one...Are there good strategic holes at Quail?  What holes are the really good holes?  

[Brent Hutto]

My guess, without having seen the course, is that it probably stacks up well in the opinion of Tour players because

a) It remains a tough course even for those who hit the ball a long, long way but

b) You do have to hit it a long way

I'd imgaine there's a pretty fine line between a golf course that requires length and requires no subtlety if you're long enough and one that seem "short' by Tour player standards. Harbor Town seems to suit a lot of the player really well. Maybe Quail Hollow is a like a scaled up Harbor Town with no ocean views and a bit larger greens.

Just speculation though. Like Jay I have not been there although although unlike Jay I live about two hours away. Go figure.

[Carl Johnson]

. . . And I can't stand looking at the 18th hole, it seems an eyesore to me, with that muddy creek running perpendicularly down the center.

That creek isn't really a creek, and it isn't muddy.  It is a lengthy water feature that was relatively recently created.  Water flows from the top, behind the 18th green, to the bottom, and then is pumped up to the top to circulate again.  It's like a fountain someone might have in his back yard, only larger.  The water is very clear.  Now, this is not to defend 18 - just to explain the "muddy creek."

I don't know much about George Cobb's architecture . . .

Link to George Cobb on wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cobb_(golf).  The course today is less George Cobb and more Tom Fazio.  Again, from wikipedia, a quote: "The course was originally designed by golf course architect George Cobb in 1961 . . . . In the intervening years, the course underwent a series of improvements, including modifications of several holes by Arnold Palmer in 1986, and a redesign by Tom Fazio in 1997 and 2003."  Again, not to defend the architecture, but rather to explain some of the history.  For the redesign work by Fazio and Blake Bickford to start Monday, after the tournament, see: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/05/04/4023034/after-competition-is-over-the.html

Carl  [P.S. - I may come back with some additional comments later.  As a Charlotte resident, I've visited Quail many times for tournaments, beginning with the Kemper Open in the 1970s, when in was a pure Cobb design.  My most recent visit was Thurs. for the first round of this year's tournament.  I've never played it, and have no strong desire to - it is not on my bucket list.]

[Jay Flemma]

Thank you, Carl.  I have played UMaryland...not one of my faves.  It seems like he has designed a lot of courses...how many of them are places GCA.com would really like? 

[Carl Johnson]

Thank you, Carl.  I have played UMaryland...not one of my faves.  It seems like he has designed a lot of courses...how many of them are places GCA.com would really like?  

I don't have enough experience to say anything helpful about Cobb, but again I would emphasize that today, I belive, Quail is more of a Tom Fazio course.  Beyond that, my sense is that GCA.com would not think favorably of Quail, but I could be wrong.  I do think it bears seeing in person, rather than just on TV, to evaluate.  It is a BIG course.  As I understand it, the design has been driven by Johnny Harris' (developer and de facto owner) desire to hold major professional tournaments.  He's finally landed "a major" - the PGA Championship in 2017.  I enjoy watching the pros play the course.  I cannot imagine that I would enjoy playing it myself.  It's essentially an "all aerial" course.

Number 15, a par five, would probably play as a par 7 for me, but many of the pros can reach it in two, with risk.  Number 5, another par five, is very similar to number 15, but without any water.  Both are left doglegs, down somewhat off the tee and then really up to the greens.  For my money, they are too similar.

Although not an island green, no. 17, a par three over water, seems to reference no. 17 at TPC Sawgrass.  If I played the course, I think I'd just skip it, but for potential disaster excitement the fans seem to like it.  No. 17 will be substantially redesigned beginning Monday.  I believe I have read what they are going to to it, but I have forgotten the details.  Except for 17, the other par threes seem similar to me, and not very interesting.

No. 8 will also be changed - again.  It is a short part four, and it has always had (as I recall under the Fazio era) a very funky green.  This year is no exception.  Geoff Ogilvy suggests giving up on the hole as a par 4, and converting it to a par three with a new green where the par four landing area is now.  [See Charlotte Observer article by Ron Greene, Jr. linked to above.]  Seems like a good idea to me.  He then says, make no. 6, currently a par 3, into a short, drivable par four.  Apparently that would revert to original Cobb design, although I have no personal recollection of that.

Jay F: "Is Quail over-rated?  If so, is it over-rated for the worst of reasons - i.e. because they really bend over backwards to provide swag bags of ridiculous size to the players?  (like BMW rental cars and expensive wine gift bags?)"

Actually, Mercedes Benz (slap your mouth boy, as they would say in these parts ), not BMW.  Certainly, the personal attention paid to the players, their wives and their caddies does not hurt a bit.

[Jay Flemma]

It may not hurt to get the players, but it's no way to rate a golf course!

15 is also a pretty sharp dogleg...almost 90 degrees? Which Doak says rarely works...

[Ed Oden]

Jay, for what it's worth, I've played Quail a number of times and regularly go to the tournament, although not this year.  Overall, I think it is a very solid course.  Overrated?  Hard for me to see that since it isn't on Golf Digest's rankings and comes in at #54 on Golfweek's modern list.  Personally, I'd say that is about right.  Too much water?  If there isn't too much at Augusta then there isn't too much at Quail since they are about the same in that respect.  Water really only comes into play on 7, greenside on 14, at 17 and then the creek on 18.  Too many trees?  Perhaps, but  the corridors are generally wide.  Other than one or two holes, you don't feel cramped whether it be for member play or for the pros.  On the contrary, Quail's scale is grand.  The course has a bunch of half par holes, which tends to ratchet up the excitement.  It rewards aggressiveness play, but with big risks.  Play well and you can make a dramatic move up the leaderboard.  A small mistake and you can go the other way in a hurry.  Honestly, in terms of tournament golf vibe, it is closer to Augusta than just about anything else I have seen.  No doubt the players love this event because they are treated very well.  But they also love the course because it is more old style than modern, tests all parts of your game and generally plays like a championship course.  Take a look at the past champions when you get a chance.  It is an impressive list with a bunch of major champions and, with the possible exception of Sindelar, no flukes.  At the end of the day, the players and broadcasters talk about Quail as a course worthy of a major because it just feels that way.  Obviously, the PGA agrees.

[Carl Johnson]

It may not hurt to get the players, but it's no way to rate a golf course!  Agreed  See also:  http://www.wcnc.com/sports/golf/Local-greeters-make-golf-pros-feel-at-home-during-Wells-Fargo-205830861.html

15 is also a pretty sharp dogleg...almost 90 degrees? Which Doak says rarely works...  It plays as less than 90 degrees.  If your drive is in the right place (not where Mickelson's was yesterday), you cut the corner over water with your second.  Still, it is a "different" sort of hole.

Finally, I cannot disagree with any of Ed Oden's comments above.

Carl

[Jay Flemma]

It just seems like there are very few lines of vharm there and a lot of back and forth.  There isn't a lot of horizontal sweep to the course or a lot of really good angles.  It seems rudimentary architecture.

[Ed Oden]

It just seems like there are very few lines of vharm there and a lot of back and forth.  There isn't a lot of horizontal sweep to the course or a lot of really good angles.  It seems rudimentary architecture.

Quail has it's faults.  But, in my opinion, these aren't ANY of them.

[Carl Johnson]

Off the subject, but it is pouring rain in my part of Charlotte right now (11:45 a.m.).  I cannot imagine playing on the grassless greens under these conditions.  The last group has finished no. 9 - I haven't heard of a cancellation or postponement yet.

[Jay Flemma]

Ed, thanks for that.  Like I said, I only see it TV.  Can you point out what you think are the best holes architecturally/strategically.  I fully intend to keep an open mind, maybe you can show me something interesting they don't show on TV.

[Carl Johnson]

. . . Take a look at the past champions [at Quail] when you get a chance.  It is an impressive list with a bunch of major champions and, with the possible exception of Sindelar, no flukes. . . .  Until today?   Maybe not.  Time will tell.

[Brent Hutto]

. . . It is an impressive list with a bunch of major champions and, with the possible exception of Sindelar, no flukes. . . .  Until today?   Maybe not.  Time will tell.

Never underestimate the power of Lefty to ruin a wet dream...

[John Shimp]

Two other points to add mostly to what Ed Oden said which is good comment are:  (1)its a really great hilly piece of property which may not come across on tv.  Angc in real life is so much hillier than on tv.  15 is an example of a hole that really uses the hills well.  You get paid or hitting a long drive tight to the left. Equally better ball strikers that can hit a long, high ball off a down hill get rewarded there.  (2) the greens are good.  Generally pitched back to front.  Being long is no good.  Some greens are too severe in places like 12, 18, and 13. 

Its a real good course and is fun to play.  I think it will be really interesting w the bermuda.  Greens will have to be significantly tempered.

[Ed Oden]

. . . Take a look at the past champions [at Quail] when you get a chance.  It is an impressive list with a bunch of major champions and, with the possible exception of Sindelar, no flukes. . . .  Until today?   Maybe not.  Time will tell.

Ha!  Usually it takes more than an hour for my words to look so foolish!  Despite today's results, I still  believe that Quail claims an outstanding list of past champions.

Jay, it is comforting to know that you are willing to keep an open mind about a course you haven't seen!  As for the best holes, 14-18 is a top notch stretch in my opinion.  Generally strategic, nice variety, lots or risk/reward, strong mix of long and short.  If that doesn't come through on TV then I doubt seeing it in person would alter your view.

[Jay Flemma]

Two other points to add mostly to what Ed Oden said which is good comment are:  (1)its a really great hilly piece of property which may not come across on tv.  Angc in real life is so much hillier than on tv.  15 is an example of a hole that really uses the hills well.  You get paid or hitting a long drive tight to the left. Equally better ball strikers that can hit a long, high ball off a down hill get rewarded there.  (2) the greens are good.  Generally pitched back to front.  Being long is no good.  Some greens are too severe in places like 12, 18, and 13. 

Its a real good course and is fun to play.  I think it will be really interesting w the bermuda.  Greens will have to be significantly tempered.

That could very well be true.  I was much much much more impressed with Oakland Hills when I saw it, and I really like Olympic Club even though it's completely different from your normal GCA.com-friendly course.  I really like both of those. Who knows?  Maybe when I get down there, I'll like it a lot more when I see it.

[Matthew Rose]

I'd play it.

[BHoover]

Compared to many of the courses played on Tour, QH is spectacular. It may not be every GCA-er's cup of tea, but I think it's just fine. I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to avoid playing it.

[Andy Troeger]

From a TV spectator perspective, I think #18 is one of the best finishers on tour. I expect if I played it that I'd think it was one of the better finishing holes that I've played. I think somebody mentioned that the course has a lot of half-par holes for the pros, and that usually makes for interesting golf as well.  I've seen most of the tour courses that look interesting to me, but Quail might be the best of the regular (non-Augusta!) stops that I haven't gotten to in person.

[Ed Oden]

Not sure why, but I pulled up some old aerials of Quail.  I doubt anyone will be interested, but here is what the site looked like in 1948 before Quail was built...



This aerial is interesting for two reasons.  First, it shows that the site was more farmland than forest.  Second, the lake is man made.


Next, here is the course in 1965, a few years after opening...



The course was originally remarkably open, especially on the front side. 


Finally, here is an image of the course from last year...



The biggest changes are to holes 6-9.  But more of Cobb's routing remains than I expected

[Jay Flemma]

Brian and Andy, those could both be true.  The rverse of the coin is would you go out of your way to play it?  If you were on 5 day golf bender in Carolina would you make a point of adding it to the itinerary?

Do you think they at least could do with some tree clearing?  How are the airway undulations?  Is there a lot of vertical movement in the Earth

[Carl Johnson]

Ed comments on how open (treeless) the course was in 1965 - photo above.  I recall from the 1970s that it was still quite open then.   I have not counted, but I'd say the majority of the trees on the course today are fast-growing (now pretty much grown) pines and willow oaks.

[John Shimp]

I would say it is over tree'd.  12 is a straight hole that plays like a dog leg virtually due to trees.  4 used to be the same way until the tee was moved left.  Then there are odd trees like the one on the right side of 14 that hangs down and causes pros to hit a low ball to avoid it.  I suspect a few fewer players go for that green due to the tree.

I think they are going to do some real tree work here over the next few months.  I haven't heard them say they want to open up some of the tighter corridors.  Overall its not an overly tight course just a few holes.  Will be interesting to see what they do with Quail. 

[Andy Troeger]

Jay,
A lot of your comments make it sound like Quail is a top 20 course that doesn't belong. The only list it makes is the Top 100 Modern, and it certainly looks like it qualifies for that. I've been to NC twice in the last few years without playing it, but I'm not aware that I could just call them up and make the tee time either.  It also would have required extra driving from Raleigh/Pinehurst/Wilmington or Cashiers/Linville. It most certainly is a pro-style course and I think they host a great tournament.

But then again I wasn't one of the ones on here bashing Atlanta Athletic Club either...even though I've been to Atlanta too and didn't play it either!