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Alex Miller

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I understand that it's more expensive to maintain and that with an absence of hazards strategy is lost. Please disregard that.

All other things equal, can a fairway be too wide?

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2013, 07:34:08 PM »
Not if the greens are well designed


Why would there be no hazards?

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2013, 07:35:07 PM »
Great question.  I don't have an answer, as I need more rounds on these two courses to know for sure.  But if there are two fairways that might be too wide they be the 1st (18th) at The Old Course and the 1st at Askernish.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2013, 07:38:37 PM »
You're kidding, right?

Alex Miller

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Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2013, 07:46:12 PM »
Not if the greens are well designed


Why would there be no hazards?

Cheers

No, it's not that there are no hazards, but that these theoretical hazards do not move based on fairway width. All else is equal save mowing lines.

David Ober

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Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2013, 07:47:54 PM »
I understand that it's more expensive to maintain and that with an absence of hazards strategy is lost. Please disregard that.

All other things equal, can a fairway be too wide?

The first fairway at Rustic Canyon is too wide. It's so wide that it feels narrow, if you get my meaning. I have a difficult time picking a target there.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2013, 07:56:27 PM »
I have a difficult time picking a target there.

Now this, to me, is a great comment.

An architect I know said that you can frustrate the better players by not giving them anything to aim at.  He said, the weaker players can embrace wide open spaces as they are free to spray the ball.  But better players like to focus in on really small targets.  Eliminate those targets and the better play usually has a bit of a tough time dealing with the lack of fine aiming points.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2013, 08:10:37 PM »
I have a difficult time picking a target there.

Now this, to me, is a great comment.

An architect I know said that you can frustrate the better players by not giving them anything to aim at.  He said, the weaker players can embrace wide open spaces as they are free to spray the ball.  But better players like to focus in on really small targets.  Eliminate those targets and the better play usually has a bit of a tough time dealing with the lack of fine aiming points.

This line of thought was touched upon in the Westward Ho thread. Flat featureless ground with long views make it tough for me. A wide fairway that lacks the long views might not be as disconcerting.

astavrides

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Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2013, 09:46:13 PM »
I understand that it's more expensive to maintain and that with an absence of hazards strategy is lost. Please disregard that.

All other things equal, can a fairway be too wide?

The first fairway at Rustic Canyon is too wide. It's so wide that it feels narrow, if you get my meaning. I have a difficult time picking a target there.

For the first hole of a round, and for one that I try to swing extra hard so that I have a chance to get home in 2, that fairway is not too wide.  I'm not the straightest hitter in the world, but I've probably missed that fairway as often as I've hit it.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2013, 10:54:05 PM »
I have a difficult time picking a target there.

Now this, to me, is a great comment.

An architect I know said that you can frustrate the better players by not giving them anything to aim at.  He said, the weaker players can embrace wide open spaces as they are free to spray the ball.  But better players like to focus in on really small targets.  Eliminate those targets and the better play usually has a bit of a tough time dealing with the lack of fine aiming points.

It frustrates the lesser golfer too, Mac -- at least it does me. I've mentioned here before one of the lesser-commented-on qualities of naturalism, i.e. while I really enjoy on an aesthetic and sporting levels the sense of space and the lack of signifiers/directional aids, I am more often than not left a bit anxious and confused on a golfing level, not specifically because there are too many options/choices, but simply because the the space itself plays tricks on me/my skills. It seems that I have to HAVE a barn door ion order to be able to HIT a barn door.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 10:56:29 PM by PPallotta »

Jason Topp

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Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2013, 11:04:37 PM »
I think the width at We Ko Pa Saguaro detracts from its interest as a course.  A centerline bunker does not mean much if there are 50 yards of fairway on both sides.

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2013, 01:28:33 AM »
Yes.

With todays aerial approach shots, even well designed greens can be hit and held from a less than ideal angle.  So having 14 fairways to just flail away at can get get a little boring.


MacKenzie's (SHOCK HORROR :o) Teignmouth falls into this category.


I also felt this about Waterville the first time I played there. The second time had more wind and I didn't feel it quite so badly, but I'm not entirely convinced and at their prices there's unlikely to be a third.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Sean_A

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Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2013, 01:53:38 AM »
In theory, I certainly think fairways can be too wide.  Its just that I haven't found many yet so I am not worrying too much about this being a problem.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2013, 04:14:42 AM »
I have a difficult time picking a target there.

Now this, to me, is a great comment.

An architect I know said that you can frustrate the better players by not giving them anything to aim at.  He said, the weaker players can embrace wide open spaces as they are free to spray the ball.  But better players like to focus in on really small targets.  Eliminate those targets and the better play usually has a bit of a tough time dealing with the lack of fine aiming points.

Tom Simpson called these aiming points "lighthouses for the better player".

Even with good / great green design these days, wide open spaces would need a plethora of well placed hazards to have a good effect.... So if the hazard placement isn't there then I agree that fairways can be too wide. If there is goo hazad placement and good greens then no - an open field is good. Maybe why Wolf Point looks so appetising.

Niall Carlton would argue that Castle Stuart was too wide. I haven't yet been there.

Charlie Gallagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2013, 07:50:50 AM »
    Great Question.  Previous posters mentioned Wolf Point as a paradigm of the intelligent use of strategy through width. I will echo and expand a little. Again and again at WP you stand and look down the wide expanse of humps and hollows, sometimes not even certain that is the greeen you are supposed to be playing to, because there is sometimes another green that appears it might be in play. It is wonderfully disorienting. Distance gets distorted. Doubt replaces certainty and must be resolved.
     Someone previously made a point about the need for hazards to help make width more strategic and relevant and generally I agree, however a green topographically contoured to create favorable and unfavorable lines of play can enhance strategy greatly without hazards having to be introduced. Wolf point has about 22 bunkers (if memory serves) and several water hazards including a very large irrigation pond and a meandering stream. These are used to great effect to enhance strategy, however, green contour is also used again and again to test drive placement to create the right line for the approach.
     One example, and there are many others, occurs on the 1st hole. One quickly learns that if the hole is cut on the knob on the right side of the green, the approach needs to come in from over the cross bunkers that diagonally bisect the enormous fairway. This brings them into play, and also brings the giant pond  left into play as well, especially for the long hitter, who will be tempted to have a go to get on in one. This is an example of the most refined combination of great design elements, all complementing the disorientingly wide fairway. Wolf Point presents such challenges again and again.
   

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2013, 08:43:17 AM »
Charlie,

I agree that green design is of utmost importance to creating interest in the drive, with or without hazards.

But even the most clever (and severe) designs have less impact nowadays than they once would have had. Certainly, the greatest greens can utilise wider fairways and fewer hazards and still be very effective…. but it is pleasing to have some additional visual challenge provided from the tee.

90 yard fairways with no additional hazards become same old, same old even if you know that there is a good side and a bad side to hit.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2013, 12:17:23 PM »
Except for those hit into water hazards, I reckon most golf balls are lost from tee-shots, especially tee shots hit early on in a round. Indeed, point number 10 in Dr MacK's 13 points is "There should be a complete absence of the annoyance and irritation caused by the necessity of searching for lost balls." Now my general personal preference is for tight courses with loads of severe hazards. But that's just my personal preference. Many will no doubt disagree, they would like more space. I don't really mind more space off the tee, lots more space if land availability permits, and am content to play such a course if that's to be the case, but if it's a wide spaces for tee-shots kinda course I'd like to see the necessity to have to play pretty skilful approaches into the greens. In other words, hit it into the correct area from the tee or you'll have a tough next shot.

One of my favourite courses is Minchinhampton Old, the course on the common with cattle and horses etc. There is loads of space off the tee, masses of it, witness this photograph of the tee shot on the 1st hole, which is pretty indicative of the space available off the tee on the majority of the par-4's and par-5's.



But if you hit your tee shot to the wrong area of fairway, then at Minch' Old there are a multitude of greenside humps and mounds and hollows to avoid or play over, some of them very severe, so approach shots become far more difficult, especially as the greens are pretty small, contoured and very firm.

Here is an example of what awaits at the side of a green, this is the 7th hole, with the photo taken the from the front left side. The pit is very, very deep, time for a lob wedge with a open face and a near full swing, plus the green is narrow and more humps and hollows awaits on its far side.



And here is another example, photo taken from the right side of the 17th green. This photo has flattened out the contours a bit, but if you miss the green on the left side, the far side in the photo, you'd better be using a ball that will spin, have new clean grooves on your lob wedge and be playing into the wind or else you'll struggle to even stop the ball on the green.



I guess a summary of my Minch' Old example would be - easy tee shot, difficult approach, although I reckon modern equipment has negated this aspect now as the modern driver is easier to hit, hybrids have largely replaced long irons, the modern ball flies straighter and the grooves on irons and wedges perform better.

Just some thoughts.

All the best.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2013, 12:53:27 PM »
I also thought a little about Westwood Ho! Is it 17 where the fairway feels 1/2 mile wide?

1/18 TOC too wide, no way. Playing 18 going up the right gives a better line in whereas bailing out left leaves a shot through the slopes.
Cave Nil Vino

Niall C

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Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2013, 02:16:43 PM »
I have a difficult time picking a target there.

Now this, to me, is a great comment.

An architect I know said that you can frustrate the better players by not giving them anything to aim at.  He said, the weaker players can embrace wide open spaces as they are free to spray the ball.  But better players like to focus in on really small targets.  Eliminate those targets and the better play usually has a bit of a tough time dealing with the lack of fine aiming points.

Tom Simpson called these aiming points "lighthouses for the better player".

Even with good / great green design these days, wide open spaces would need a plethora of well placed hazards to have a good effect.... So if the hazard placement isn't there then I agree that fairways can be too wide. If there is goo hazad placement and good greens then no - an open field is good. Maybe why Wolf Point looks so appetising.

Niall Carlton would argue that Castle Stuart was too wide. I haven't yet been there.

Ally

And I was trying sooooo hard not to comment  ;D.

Yes, if I was being cantankerous I would say most of the fairways at Castle Stuart are too wide, if I was being generous I would say they are missing hazards to create strategy/interest which is why I'm totally in agreement with Tony. Its interesting that both Tony and I agree as we're both in that middle ground between being a good golfer and an absolute hacker. In other words, fairly average. And yet we both seem to contradict Mac's architect pal. Personally speaking I know I play better when my mind is engaged rather than just flaying away with no real aim.

Niall

Phil McDade

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Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2013, 02:56:08 PM »
In theory, I certainly think fairways can be too wide.  Its just that I haven't found many yet so I am not worrying too much about this being a problem.

Ciao

Sean:

Cleeve Cloud? Maybe the widest fairways I've seen shown here on GCA...

Jud_T

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Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2013, 03:05:56 PM »
Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?

Nope.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 03:19:27 PM by Jud T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2013, 03:07:58 PM »
Never.
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Charlie Gallagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2013, 03:17:32 PM »
Ally,
  Your point is solid. Remember Wolf Point has at least 22 bunkers, including the enormous inferno bunker on the 5th hole. There is also repeated artful use of the water, especially the cunning use of the stream on 6, 16,  and 17, and the huge reservoir which the course is centered around, so there is a goodly mix of hazard employment. But I also think that with the right terrain you can have a wide hole where the cunning contour of the green greatly dictates strategy, a point that may not reveal its self innitially. I can't think of a specific hole off hand, but my expectation is that a hole where blindness might punish a wayward drive would be the sort of ground feature I am thinking of, especially if as a result of the waywardness a lousy angle of attack resulted.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2013, 03:37:41 PM »
I have a difficult time picking a target there.

Now this, to me, is a great comment.

An architect I know said that you can frustrate the better players by not giving them anything to aim at.  He said, the weaker players can embrace wide open spaces as they are free to spray the ball.  But better players like to focus in on really small targets.  Eliminate those targets and the better play usually has a bit of a tough time dealing with the lack of fine aiming points.

Tom Simpson called these aiming points "lighthouses for the better player".

Even with good / great green design these days, wide open spaces would need a plethora of well placed hazards to have a good effect.... So if the hazard placement isn't there then I agree that fairways can be too wide. If there is goo hazad placement and good greens then no - an open field is good. Maybe why Wolf Point looks so appetising.

Niall Carlton would argue that Castle Stuart was too wide. I haven't yet been there.

Ally

And I was trying sooooo hard not to comment  ;D.

Yes, if I was being cantankerous I would say most of the fairways at Castle Stuart are too wide, if I was being generous I would say they are missing hazards to create strategy/interest which is why I'm totally in agreement with Tony. Its interesting that both Tony and I agree as we're both in that middle ground between being a good golfer and an absolute hacker. In other words, fairly average. And yet we both seem to contradict Mac's architect pal. Personally speaking I know I play better when my mind is engaged rather than just flaying away with no real aim.

Niall


Hey Brother how's tricks?


We have had a discussion along these lines and we do seem to be in agreement.  So we played Minchampton together (as a GCA 5some - great club) and now Thomas has put the cat amongst the pigeons, do we agree on that one?

I may edit this post later with more thought but...

Thomas I loved Minchampton and thought if only it had become the model for golf courses. It has been discussed on here before including I believe the fact that it was once considered to host the Open! (Someone please shoot me if my memory is now that bad that I made it up).  Whilst I agree that it does have many open fairways, and when we played it in March 2012 the rough was the definition of benign, it doesn’t overdo it.  I recall there are sloping fairways, a driveable par 4, roads and other hazards to consider.  As with all these features, the secret lies with using them judiciously.  So I can’t say I really had the same thoughts as I had at the two above.  Good call though.


(PS if Jeff Warne is reading this then Painswick/Minchampton/ Cleeve Cloud is your kind of weekend – and closer to Heathrow too.)


Phil Cleeve Cloud sort of evades the question too.  Those fairways slope so much that you really are always picking out a defined spot that you’d prefer to hit. Miss it and you’ll run a mile off line, so they don’t play wide if that makes sense..
Let's make GCA grate again!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever played a course with fairways that are too wide?
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2013, 03:56:16 PM »
In theory, I certainly think fairways can be too wide.  Its just that I haven't found many yet so I am not worrying too much about this being a problem.

Ciao

Sean:

Cleeve Cloud? Maybe the widest fairways I've seen shown here on GCA...

Phil

As Spangles suggests, the fairways aren't overly wide at Cleeve Cloud, but they are wisely generous.  I would rather see a few dozen well placed huge bunkers than see the fairways narrowed.  I would also say that the maintenance regime is more like very light rough (shaggy fairways?) throughout rather than fairway.  It works fine.

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 04:18:02 PM by Sean A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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