Broadmoor CC (Indianapolis) Greens. Best in state?

[David Stewart]

I had the pleasure of playing 36 holes at Broadmoor CC in Indianapolis last Saturday. I had played it once before, but with two walks through this time I was able to really study the greens more closely. The variety of the greens and the interior contours make them a joy to play. If you find yourself out of position on or around the greens, it is like figuring out a puzzle to get the ball close to the hole (and very satisfying if you actually do it). If you just take holes 13-16 you get a sense of the variety and challenge you will face. 13 has a big dip at the back of the green separating plateaus, 14 has one of the largest back to front slopes you will find, 15 is surrounded by bunkers with back to front slope and a back tier that is very difficult to reach, and 16 has lovely interior contrours which make you think if you are off by a few yards. For having relatively flat property, Ross did an amazing job on these greens.

Although I haven't played every course in the state I have played a lot of good ones and would rank these greens as the best in Indiana. For those of you familiar with BCC and Indiana golf, is there another course in the state with better greens?

[Matthew Sander]

David,

Great post. I remember 3, 6, and 13 really standing out to me. I took several pictures during last fall's Mashie and I'll post later after reviewing them to jog my memory. They aren't of great quality, but I may post some just to help out the discussion.

[David Stewart]

Thanks Matthew. Some pictures would be great. That 3rd green is a doozy. The pin Saturday was in the low front left section of the green. In my first round I was on in two but almost all the way to the back edge. I proceeded to putt off the green, hit my chip too firm past the hole, then was too delicate with that putt and it couldn't hold its line. I made sure to be short in the second round...

[Tom_Doak]

It is a great set of greens, and it was a pleasure to be involved with helping the club for a few years.

Pete Dye told me that when he started Crooked Stick, he took a transit over to Broadmoor and measured the slopes in Ross's greens there, since it was the best set of greens around.  So if you are looking for a better set in Indiana, it would have to be from a modern course, if there is one.

[Howard Riefs]

A great set of greens. They were running fairly quick, even despite taking on a good amount of rain the day before when we were there for the Mashie.  

Some photos of the front nine ... before my battery died.






Hole #1 – 433 yards, Gold Tees /422 yards, Blue Tees




Hole #3 – 383/375






Hole #4 – 147/137




Hole #5 – 433/423




Hole #6 – 391/383




Hole #7 – 340/334




Hole #8




Hole #9 – 527/507

[Matthew Sander]

For a modern course, The Trophy Club has some awfully good greens. Numbers 6, 13, and 16 come to mind, but collectively they don't have the slope and contour of Broadmoor's greens.

[Ted Sturges]

I would also put up Tom's Quail Crossing as having a wonderful set of greens.  Favorites there are 4, 12, 14, 15, and 16.  But as a set...I can't think of a better group than what they have at Broadmoor within the state.  Crooked Stick's were right there with Broadmoor years ago, but the various renovations over the years have "dumbed them down".

TS

[Josh Tarble]

I fully agree that they are the best in state and perhaps some of the best in the country.  Not only is are the greens incredibly fun and challenging, they are all pretty unique from one another.  Most have significant back to front slopes, but no two are very similar at all.

My personal favorites:

#1 - really shows you what to expect, the knob in back plays havoc with back right and left pin positions
#5 - this is one of the more mild greens, but the knob in front right is a fun feature
#6 - one of the most difficult greens on the course
#9 & #18 - I love the joined green complex.  9 has a really cool thumbprint right in the middle of the green and 18 is one of the most crowned greens I've ever played
#11 - probably gets overlooked in the grand scheme of the course, but is really interesting and is really fun on a long par 3
#17 - I really enjoy this green with a tiny sliver of a finger that makes back right pin positions really challenging


As you can tell, you could really pick out any of the 18 greens and I would have no argument on it being the best green out there.  Just a tremendous variety and really fun to play every day.

Also, I have been planning on doing a photo tour of the course once the trees get a little bit greener.  I've been wanting to show how dramatic the difference is between when Ran profiled the course in 2002 and what it is today.  Tree clearing and reclaiming some of the mowing lines on fairways and greens has made a huge difference.

[Chris Clouser]

I didn't get a chance to see the greens at Broadmoor in the Mashie last year, but I would nominate the greens at Purgatory as some of the best I have seen in the state.  I know the course gets criticized for the number of bunkers (unfairly I think for the most part) and the name and the super long tees put in by the owner, but the greens are really good. 

3 - a great Redan style green
8 - the lower second half of the green makes for a premium on any shots to a front hole location
6 and 14 were also excellent
several others have something of significance in them from a contouring perspective

[Steve_ Shaffer]

From the pictures, it appears that Broadmoor needs some tree work. Am I correct?

[Chris DeToro]

I've never been to Broadmoor so I can't comment, but I remember the greens at the Ross course at French Lick being really good

[Tom_Doak]

From the pictures, it appears that Broadmoor needs some tree work. Am I correct?

Yes.  But they aren't embracing that part of our recommendations so far.  We did cut down quite a few trees, but only a fraction of what we would have done if given a free hand.

[Matthew Sander]

From the pictures, it appears that Broadmoor needs some tree work. Am I correct?

Yes.  But they aren't embracing that part of our recommendations so far.  We did cut down quite a few trees, but only a fraction of what we would have done if given a free hand.

While I would say there are plenty of trees that could still come down, very few hole corridors felt choked (in my opinion). Now if you stray several yards off the fairway, you're going to hit your recovery around, under, or over trees. It Didn't feel claustrophobic from the tee though. Below is a link to a satellite overhead. Again, there are plenty of trees, many of which could come down, but there are well regarded courses with quite a few more.

http://binged.it/YmCqQr

The tree removal that was done though was really needed and brought ideal playing lines back in to play. I think tree removal also helped to expose many of the cluster bunkers that Ross constructed.

[Matthew Sander]

Deleted - duplicate post

[Josh Tarble]

Chris,
The greens at French Lick are also very good, but I think they lack the total variety of Broadmoor.  I have heard before that its been thought Ross used the same shaping crew at both courses, so there are a lot of similarities.


I will also echo Matt's statement in that more trees could come down, but I think that it is nice and playable now.  Only a few holes are excessively narrow and only on a few certain shots do trees encroach on lines of play. 

[David Stewart]

From the pictures, it appears that Broadmoor needs some tree work. Am I correct?

If you go look at Ran's profile of the course you can see how bad the trees used to be. It is significantly better now.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Hopefully, the board will fully back Doak’s Master Plan, which will undoubtedly call for the return to wide playing corridors.

The club must have a lot of "tree huggers. " See TD's comment above.

While there may be significant progress, more tree  work remains.

[Mike Hendren]

Having just returned from Indianapolis this weekend, I was pleasantly surprised how interesting Dye's greens at Brickyard Crossing were. 

Bogey

[Josh Tarble]

Another course I was just thinking about was Sagamore.  A Jack Nicklaus signature design in Noblesville.  The greens are pretty heavily contoured and quite varied.

They are definitely more of a "modern" type green, presented with significant run-out, are fun and challenging but I still don't think they are at the level of Broadmoor's

[Ted Sturges]

I was a member of the Green Committee when Renaissance was hired and throughout the course of the work that they did.  They did a great job, improved the course greatly, but yes, the tree plan was not fully embraced by the rest of the committee.  As it always is, removing trees becomes an emotional topic among the membership.  I would say we cut down approximately 200 trees, and you all would have laughed your #%& off if you saw some of the trees that were among those 200.  For example on #14 the tee shot had to be hit within about an 8 yard area to have a shot at the green, and that shot would only be to the front of the green and the far right side of the green due to 2 huge trees left of that green.  It was truly laughable.  As well, there was a huge tree basically on the right fringe of #11, so that you had to play to the left half of that green.  Those two holes probably improved more than any other after the Renaissance firm's work. 

I agree with Matt S. above that the worst offenders have been felled.  Some of what was done was also due to money, as cutting down trees is expensive and Broadmoor always struggles financially due to being built in the 1920's in what was then the best part of town, and is now 20-30 minutes from the northside suberbs where tons of potential members live.  I would think you could easily cut down another 300 and still not get to all of what would be done in an ideal tree plan...but the course plays pretty well now and the work Tom's firm did (cudos to Bruce Hepner) recapturing the lost "outskirts" of the greens, recontouring the fairway mow lines, and moving a few bunkers has really improved this great old Ross course.  The greens are indeed amazing!

TS

[Terry Lavin]

I've heard great things. Having never been there, I can't comment except to note that it's a bit of a wonder that grass can grow with all of those trees.

[Scott Sander]

Regarding the greens:

From a design perspective, no, nothing else I've played in Indiana comes very close.
-French Lick is more dramatic but at the expense of surprise.  You can read the FL greens from the tees - which is cool and encourages strategic play, but there's a lack of subtlety on arrival to the green that mutes a bit of the thrill.
-Langford left some remarkably bold strokes on the greens at places like Culver, Maxincukee, and Harrison Hills, but nothing consistent.
-I wish wish wish I'd played Crooked Stick before all the changes - if greens like #12, #13 and #15 are "after" versions, then the "before" must have been truly remarkable.
-I've not played -any- of the newer casino courses, so I cannot speak to their greens - but other noted moderns like Victoria National, Sycamore Hills, Sagamore, etc. are almost all contour and lavels but little or no tilt, so they are very challenging and interesting when you are standing over a putt, but they do not have the take-your-breath-away drama of either Broadmoor or French Lick.
-As seen at Trophy Club, Rock Hollow, a coupla of the new Harrison Hills holes, and I suspect much of what's on the ground at The Fort, Tim Liddy can cobble together some neat greens.  But after playing Broadmoor with him in the Mashie, I'd wager that even if he were to shed his modesty for a moment he'd still quickly bow and give way to Ross for 'best set' in Indiana.


Regarding trees:
If many of those are ash trees, the problem is by most accounts going to take care of itself.  Several courses around here are facing MASSIVE die-off from the ash borer.  (One of Dye's earliest -Sahm- is going to be left defenseless in many areas as soon as the city or private operator come up with the $$ to remove what's already dead, much less what's dying.  More trees than not are tagged for removal.)

Whether that species is as pervasive at Broadmoor as it is elsewhere, I wouldn't even guess without going back out there specifically to look.  Ted S. or someone on Tom's team may have a better idea if that's something he/they keep a record of.

.

[Jason Thurman]

I'd be surprised if there's a better set in Indiana. In fact, I consider them the best set I've played, ahead of courses like No. 2, Lawsonia, Idle Hour, Pine Needles, Pebble Beach, and Prairie Club - Dunes.

What sets them apart for me is, as others have alluded to, the balance of dramatic and subtle. There are some major slopes on a lot of them, but also plenty of subtle slope. The result is a lot of double-breakers and even the elusive uphill breaker. Playing a fourball match with Tim Liddy against the Sanders gentlemen last fall, I basically puked all over myself for three holes before hitting my tee shot at 4 to about 20 feet. I proceeded to block my putt about a foot right of my intended left-to-right line. I expected the ball to feed right a good three or four feet away from the hole, and watched happily as my read proved awful and it turned left into the middle of the cup.

Regarding the trees there's certainly room for a little more clearing. But Broadmoor has an elite superintendent who keeps their turf quality outstanding, and I don't find that they encroach too much. They certainly don't punish anything other than bad shots.

I'm looking forward to getting back out there soon...

[Mark Smolens]

Although my opinion may well be bolstered by the fact that I made so many putts against our opponents last fall, I agree completely with Jason's last comment that limiting the ranking of this set of greens to their state of origin may not be broad enough. Not only were they in phenomenal condition (especiall considering the deluge they received the prior day), they were varied in slope to the max, with some greens having small subtle breaks, with others being outrageously fun. My recollection from our dinner after the Mashie was a pretty broad consensus that these were a set of greens that one would certainly enjoy playing every day.

[Kevin Stark]

With the exception of the Dye course at French Lick, I've played everything of note in Indiana. There isn't an entire collection of 18 that are better in Indiana than at Broadmoor. Other courses in Indiana with greens that might be in the discussion include Wolf Run and South Bend Country Club, but in my opinion those aren't even close. There are a number of courses with "second-tier" status of green complexes like Elcona, Highland (in Indy), French Lick (Ross), Harrison Hills (the original 9), and a few others, but none that are in the same class as Broadmoor.

#3 at Broadmoor is the only truly horrifying tree infestation left. The fairway needs to be about twice as wide as it is and all of the trees around the green need to go. Mr. Ross intended different lines of play for different hole locations on one of the best greens on the property and those trees take those lines of play away. There are a number of holes, as others have mentioned, where straying from the fairways results in hitting recovery shots around trees. That said, many of those corridors are significantly wider than they used to be with wider fairways, courtesy of the master plan from RD.