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Ted Sturges

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golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« on: April 29, 2013, 01:07:59 PM »
When this site opened for business more than a decade ago, I was something like customer #5.  It was a fresh idea.  It was fun.  Ran had great ideas for how to improve it, and he did.  He added the feature interview section.  He added the "in my opinion" link.  Then he added the architecture timeline (a terrific learning tool).  The site grew.  Ran's immense mug (ever try to buy Ran a hat?) graced the pages of Sports Illustrated. And more people came to play...and more...and more.

Then it got a little nasty.  Green bold type appeared on the scene.  And it got uglier...  Some antagonists were shown the door.  Others should have.

About that time (something like 06 or 07), I just got bored with the site and left.  What had at one time been a great place to discuss architecture, learn, create interesting topics and chime in on topics created by other site visitors, became a place for put downs, superiority, elitism, bad manners, people taking themselves too seriously...and a lot less "learning" (less fun as well).  So, I left.  I didn't leave mad, I just left.  It just got stale and boring to be honest.

About a year and a half ago, I came back.  I have 2 nephews who are relatively new to the game who got hooked on the site and were talking about it, so I came back.  And it was fun...for awhile.

A fine wine gets better with age.  Not so much with golfclubatlas.com.  Why is that?  Too many people?  Too many "mean" people?  Some of the recent rants about girlfriends as caddies, and playing angles to Augusta greens are just downright ridiculous. 

Why does this site not evolve "better"?  Why can't it continue to "improve"?  As a resource for a young person wishing to study golf architecture, this site is an amazing resource.  As a case study in poor manners/saying things in cyberspace that one would never say to another person's face, it is fairly embarrassing. 

TS

PS:  And I too recall Ran telling me that he had banned the anonymous posters a few years back.  In the early days it was fun, but it was the wild west.  People had several different posting names and used those aliases to post things they wouldn't post under their real name.  I would like to see Ran enforce the no alias rule, as he made that change for a reason and I don't think that reason has changed.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2013, 01:10:50 PM »
I was wondering when the annual "GCA.com has jumped the shark" thread was going to be started...
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

noonan

Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2013, 01:11:31 PM »
Society is denigrating - this site is just following the rest of the world

The green type is uncalled for

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2013, 01:28:36 PM »
Society is denigrating - this site is just following the rest of the world

The green type is uncalled for

But society isn't denigrating. Figure after figure after figure will tell you are now safer in the western world than ever before. We have a bigger, more sensationalist media than ever before. Sleep well.

But enough about that......

I for one, being relatively new to GCA, have recently found myself less inclined to get involved. At first I found myself leaping on any topic, ecstatic that I had found a golf site where intellectual discussion could take place. But after a while it became apparent that there were certain forms of play which were just frequently repeated. It was fun for a while to throw the dog a bone but playing with a dog can get boring quite quickly.

I still feel it's an excellent educational tool and have directed new students of the game in its direction, but personally I make a point of never posting anything which I wouldn't be prepared to say to someone's face. It's clear that isn't a policy followed by all.


In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2013, 01:38:55 PM »
A fine wine gets better with age.  Not so much with golfclubatlas.com.  Why is that?  Too many people?  Too many "mean" people? 

I've been on here for a long time, and while perhaps the topics aren't quite as engaging as they once were (probably because many of the interesting topics have been exhausted), I find the tone of discourse has improved. Some of the posters in the early days were eager to turn every discussion into a personal attack. I think most of those people have gone away, with the purveyor(s) of the green ink a notable exception.

Sam Morrow

Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2013, 01:44:09 PM »
Maybe I'm a simple person, things aren't perfect on this site but the world isn't perfect either.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2013, 01:44:18 PM »
The site is just fine, IMHO.  We occasionally veer onto too many spur ramps and some engage in ad hominem attacks or respond with vitriol that is uncalled for, but in the main, I think it is just as vibrant as it was when I first came aboard about ten years ago.  Every once in a while the herd gets thinned.  Some are missed; the absence of others is cause for continued celebration.

Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tom Culley

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Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2013, 01:51:42 PM »
I joined GCA after spending around a year reading the site, with the intention of using the DG as a place to ask questions and learn more about this game we love. As one of the youngest members of the site, i haven't yet had the opportunity to visit the great courses of the world, but i have enjoyed reading about them and learning what makes them great.

I do however find it very difficult to ask questions on the DG because i feel like i would be shouted down by certain active members, and be seen as uneducated. I have kinda realised that i will have far more success with this site if i use it as a way of making connections and then learning from members when i meet to play with them. My first meet was in the last week and it was great to be able to learn from someone very knowledgable in person. I hope to be able to do this far more often in the future.
"Play the ball as it lies, play the course as you find it, and if you cannot do either, do what is fair. But to do what is fair, you need to know the Rules of Golf."

Brent Hutto

Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2013, 02:31:54 PM »
The only real issue that I see with the way the discussion group (which is not the entire site BTW) has "aged" is that the list of topics that are hot-buttons for one or several of the most vociferous and argumentative members has gotten untenably large. There are too many subjects (Merion anyone?) which have been poisoned such that almost any mention of them will attract the airing of age-old grievances to no good end.

When we do manage to avoid those 20-30 topics we do just fine, thank you.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2013, 02:33:57 PM »
I was wondering when the annual "GCA.com has jumped the shark" thread was going to be started...

Welcome back Mr. Jones.  Maybe it is time for me to take another hiatus!

Sabbaticals are very good things, particularly for the smart people in academia (not you, of course).  Things do get repetitive quickly, and let's face it, not many people, not even some of our best friends, are really interested in hearing what we have to say if it takes more than 15-20 seconds.  

It is easy, pleasant to "learn" when others are singing from the same hymn book.  It sometimes becomes nasty when our biases and assumptions are posed as facts or the conclusions of thoughtful deliberation, and other folks see them for what they are- personal preferences-and offer alternative perspectives.  Amazing how smart and well-mannered people are who share our world perspective.

BarneyF, aka JakaB, aka John Kavanaugh has a thread on the virtues of posing under one's proper name.  I can report with high conviction that this could be very dangerous to one's interests.  Anyone having to do anything in the industry has nothing to gain by engaging in "frank and open" discussion.  For those who try to be artful in their writing to avoid the pitfalls, the results are often bland, uninformative, and, at times, damning of their subject with benign praise.  And for those who seek "world's greatest guest" status, minding the Ps and Qs is far more important than contributing to the advancement of knowledge.   ;)

Tom Culley,

Why be afraid?  What can the cyber bullies possibly do to you?  Put a house coat over their jammies and come out from behind the computer?  If you are sincere about learning, give your questions some thought before posting them and go for it.  From personal experience, the many guys I've met here over the past 10+ years are mostly friendly, helpful, generous, and good sports.  What you might wish to avoid is the one or two sentence thoughtless lines seeking personal attention that are probably only marginally appropriate in a locker-room of similarly-minded individuals.        

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2013, 02:56:26 PM »
Ted,

I hear you, but haven't found this site a lot different, just me.  Sometimes I have time, sometimes I am interested, and some times I have time AND I am interested. 

Whenever I have joined a group, club or organization, I have found my perception of it changes over time, usually as the group I came in with fades away, and its new and front and center for the next gen.

Both the stength and weakness of internet forums is that you never know what threads might get posted, or what direction they may go.  May or may not be to your liking at any given moment, but no one made me Pope of the internet, so I go with the flow.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2013, 03:10:00 PM »


BarneyF, aka JakaB, aka John Kavanaugh has a thread on the virtues of posing under one's proper name.          

Now, that is a funny typo.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2013, 03:15:32 PM »
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this, but the number of threads, and the topics which they cover, have become far too great. There were dozens of threads on the Masters, some on the same subject, and that could have been (and probably should have been) condensed into two threads (one on the merits of the course and one on the events of the tournament). As I write this there are 5 threads completely off topic when it comes to GCA on the front page of the discussion group, and plenty of others that cover topics that hardly are debatable.

Just as bad is the number of threads on "rank golf courses with _______ in consideration." I find that these threads hardly promote frank discussion because most of us have not played all of the courses and cannot properly evaluate a ranking system and we largely all end up just listing our "rankings" and leave the discussion once and for all. These threads rarely promote interesting discussion. As it was I was very reluctant to post CB MacDonald's ranking system for that reason, and tried to gear that discussion more to the merits of that system, and if I do end up assembling rankings of courses through that system, it will be largely to have a better understanding of what CB MacDonald was trying to accomplish with that ranking system. For the most part, I would say if we can condense many of these threads or at least limit them, it would help promote more discussion when it comes to ranking golf courses. (NOTE: This does not include writing on publications' rankings, because I find that those rankings are important both to see what the perception of the magazine's are and because they have driven golf course architecture for so long.)

And we all do like to beat up on Pat Mucci for beating up on all of us (the irony). Maybe I'm saying this because I haven't been beaten up by him yet, but what I will say about Pat is that by a large margin, he promotes far more frank and interesting discussions on this website than any of us. These threads end up being diluted by personal attacks and seem to stray from the original topic over time, but other than Ran, Tom D, and those who post photo tours of different courses (the ultimate form of learning about a golf course), there is no one I have learned more from on this site.

That's my 2 cents.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2013, 03:55:38 PM »
I have been here since pretty much the beginning. There is only so much that can be said. I don't even read most of the threads because at some point in the past there was already a thread that exhauted the subject in question.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2013, 04:04:44 PM »
This site like many have matured. I was not here in the early days and only found GCA about 18 months ago. There is a common trend among specialist websites. They start as small clubs with high quality discussion but as more discover their value they change and not always for the better. However, compared to nearly every forum on the internet, this one is still rather exclusive and the discussion level is quite high. I can't speak for Ran but my guess is he is achieving his goal of educating the public to certain ideals of golf course architecture.

There is an amazing amount of valuable content and discussion on this site. There is also a fair amount of ego driven stubbornness. One can choose to filter through the maze to find the quality or get mired in the muck.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2013, 04:41:05 PM »


BarneyF, aka JakaB, aka John Kavanaugh has a thread on the virtues of posing under one's proper name.          

Now, that is a funny typo.

I'll leave it for the sake of your amusement.  Besides, has the mystery of who is BarneyF/JakaB/ohn Kavanaugh ever been solved?

I remember listening to an architect awhile ago lamenting that while he was away from the property for a few weeks, the construction company misread his plans and sited one green some 50 yards short of where it was drawn, and the back tee to the subsequent hole a similar distance also short.  For me, it made those two holes far more interesting- a par 5 that was now reachable in two some of the time, and a par 4 with a crazy green that invited even a short knocker to try to run it on.  Sometimes our errors turn out better than our intentions?

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2013, 05:14:05 PM »
I'd like to add that I mostly agree with the sentiments echoed by Mr. Sturges, Dougherty & Duran.

Certainly, too many threads have appeared that overlap, infringe on, or just plain repeat what has appeared in the past. "Hot" button subjects quickly deteriorate into denigration and derisive diatribe. People take themselves entirely too seriously, or even occasionally too loosely. Heck, I'd have to admit to being guilty of straddling that fence on an occasion or two  ;D. Too many OT threads are created that just swiftly devolve into a 2+ person dialogue over something less-than-relevant and thus serve to repel or bore most readers. Some just blatantly use GCA to tout their quasi-journalistic and or semi-professional hobbies.
 
What has yet to be mentioned, is the issue of how so many of the truly constructive contributors of the past have had their voices dimmed or replaced by those who've arrived in the past few years determined to race to some extreme # of posts, all while contributing very little, other than the drivel of electronic text. When I meet up with many of the great past posters, they near unanimously think that these diarrhetic folks determined to comment on every thread with no attempt to add anything substantial really do detract from the site. Many have migrated elsewhere, to blogs or pms, determined to remain lurkers until they see any meaningful shift to cleaner content.

Even worse, many who post so frequently don't even bother to financially support the site at any level near commiserate with their e-ink!!  ??? Should there be rules limiting posts or pms without contributing, or enforce some initiation period?? I don't know, but think these are viable questions. In fact, Golf's  "Most Bitter ;D ;D " (.... post losing :o a hard fought hickory match on the 18th hole :)) and myself were discussing just what might address and remedy this slippery slope?

 Much of the above is probably a natural evolution of a largely open site, relatively devoid of editorial censorship, or any heavy-handed dictatorial control.

There aren't any easy answers. Self-policing is only as good as the people who put on the badges and I'd say we got plenty of "Gold Hattters" who claim to not "need no stinkin badges." These otherwise good folk seem to believe GCA is their domain to determine what passes for constructive comment or enlightened content.

Neither Ran nor Ben have the time nor inclination to turn GCA into an authoritarian state or a commercially-diluted wasteland.  I can only hope everyone who reads this can see just how lucky we are to have such a benevolently-inclined set of masters. Does anyone realize how much time, money and energy it takes to oversee this treehouse? Changes can and should come in order to take GCA to the next level, but until then, perhaps every post should be require a prefacing and sobering thought with the understanding that you are fortunate enough to belong to a select group enabled to publicly discuss golf architecture and implicitly charged not to "screw it up?"
 
No matter what slippage GCA is experiencing, it still remains the world's single most robust and valuable website for everything related to golf-course architecture and is a virtual treasure that more than equals any of the world's golf museums. Maybe if we looked at it through this type of lens before typing, we'd all be better enlightened? I'd hope so.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 05:16:34 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2013, 07:27:17 PM »
If Ran would give me 5 days with the power to delete posters I could get this site back to greatness.

Day one,  Delete the obvious.
Day two.  Outline the criteria for staying.
Day three and four.  Take private appeals both for and against posters.
Day five.  Delete remaining weak links. 

I would be happy to fall on my sword at the end of day five and enjoy reading this great site from the shadows.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2013, 07:29:55 PM »
If Ran would give me 5 days with the power to delete posters I could get this site back to greatness.

Day one,  Delete the obvious.
Day two.  Outline the criteria for staying.
Day three and four.  Take private appeals both for and against posters.
Day five.  Delete remaining weak links. 

I would be happy to fall on my sword at the end of day five and enjoy reading this great site from the shadows.

Now to convince Ran.  ;)

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2013, 07:41:44 PM »
John, after you delete your obvious self on day one, you won't be able to wreak any more havoc...

Grandpa Ted, guess what? After a while, the modern becomes post-modern.

I wasn't here ten years ago, so I point the finger for the decay of this discussion group at the man in the mirror and lay the blame squarely at my feet.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2013, 07:43:37 PM »
If you go to a bar you don't like you've got a few options...stop going or try to change it from within.

To change this place from within Ran would have to engage someone to moderate actively.

Who in the their right mind would want to moderate this knitting circle?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2013, 07:52:16 PM »
Sure there are plenty of OT posts and nonsense green ink 2 way thread killing battles, but there are plenty of great threads, and one can simply skip the nonsense.
10 + years ago there were commonly threads that had 2 or three replies, often days or weeks apart.(of course there was some great discussion and content then as well)
Easier to sift through the occasional sand to get get to the gold than to watch a thread go ignored for days.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2013, 08:04:58 PM »
The problem isn't the site as much as it is the industry.  There are not enough new courses or renovations of prominent courses that make for discussion.  A blacksmithing site or a buggy whip site would react the same way...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Joe_Tucholski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2013, 08:22:11 PM »
The problem isn't the site as much as it is the industry.  There are not enough new courses or renovations of prominent courses that make for discussion.  A blacksmithing site or a buggy whip site would react the same way...

Mike I was thinking the same thing.  I've occasionaly thought something or played a course that I wanted to discuss and usually the search function shows the topic or course has been covered.  Without new courses its not easy to generate new topics worthy of discussion.

Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: golfclubatlas.com (not like a fine wine...)
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2013, 09:11:41 PM »
There are not enough new courses or renovations of prominent courses that make for discussion.

Without new courses its not easy to generate new topics worthy of discussion.

While this is certainly true right now I still think there's plenty more to talk about. These photo threads that are put up teach us about many of the lesser known golf courses, and each one gives us another topic to discuss. There's 32,000 golf courses in the world (roughly) and I am of the opinion that there is plenty to be discussed about them.

"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley