New C&C Course in Virgina announced

[Steve Pozaric]

Saw an article in Golf about a new Coore & Crenshaw course.
http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/donald-trump-hires-bill-coore-ben-crenshaw-charlottesville-golf-course?sct=hp2

Given the general favor held towards the architects and the animus towards the owner (none other than the Donald), it will be interesting to see how that plays out.

[Steve Lapper]

Just a few simple questions:

When the world's best golf course architectural team agrees to build a new course in an area they've yet to work, Isn't it just plain good for the game?

If the above mentioned team has firmly established their integrity and professional independence, why does the owner's background matter?

Isn't it good for everyone on this site who wishes to see another C&C design evolve?


I'm sure some of you will spend many pages lambasting all the characters involved, so go ahead and "talk amongst yourselves!"

I, for one, only want to hear rational and logical discussions of the above questions.

Cheers

[Jud_T]

I have to admit, love him or hate him, Trump is a quick study.  First Gil and now this.  I guess Doak can name his price on the next one!

[Mike Sweeney]

Isn't it good for everyone on this site who wishes to see another C&C design evolve?

I am thinking in this college tour season, my son needs to look at The University that Thomas Jefferson and his Grandfather attended, so that Dad has a place to play in the winter!

Interesting mix of C&C, Donnie and Charlottsville, did not see that one coming.

[Jamey Bryan]

As a University alum, I'm excited to hear this!

It's going to be interesting, however, to see how this evolves, especially as regards the business model.  The article states that the course will be public, but I can't see how the Charlottesville population can support an ultra high-end public course on it's own legs.  There's a lot of private and semi-private competition in the area....   Farmington Country Club which is a very good course and a truly outstanding club with strong ties to University Alumni.  Farmington also offers a very reasonably priced nonresident membership to alumni; a great value to those who regularly visit to see kids or attend sporting events.  Keswick Inn has a fairly good Palmer design, and Keswick is a good luxury hotel.  The Boars Head Inn, another 5 star hostelry, is tied in with the University's Birdwood Course which is a fairly good layout (and available very inexpensively to anyone with University ties).

The Albemarle House property is truly spectacular (as is Albemarle House itself); the winery has a chapel which is very popular for weddings.  I can envision a very special C&C course on the property, but have difficulty seeing the project as a whole offering a good return.....

Jamey

Mike....

There are a LOT of reasons ya'll need to look at UVa!  You'd really like Farmington, BTW.

[Jason Hines]

Jamey,

I am trying to find the property on Google Maps, do you happen to know the location?

Jason

[Jimmy Muratt]

Living in Charlottesville, this is certainly exciting news.  When Trump first bought the Kluge estate, there was some talk about a potential golf course but there has been little discussion lately.  Hearing that he has hired C&C as the designers is great news.  It's a beautiful property, rolling Virginia land, beautiful vistas and very close to Monticello.

There is a good amount of local competition but with C&C and Trump involved it will assuredly be of high quality and very well publicized.  I'm very excited to see the plan that they have come up with, it's  great site and unlike any of their other sites.  

[Tim Gavrich]

Isn't it good for everyone on this site who wishes to see another C&C design evolve?

I am thinking in this college tour season, my son needs to look at The University that Thomas Jefferson and his Grandfather attended, so that Dad has a place to play in the winter!

Interesting mix of C&C, Donnie and Charlottsville, did not see that one coming.

While you're down that way, Mike, may I suggest also swinging by The University that George Washington Saved and Where Robert E. Lee is Buried? It's smaller (just under 2,000 undergrad) but my four years there could scarcely have been better.

[Joel_Stewart]

Just a few simple questions:

If the above mentioned team has firmly established their integrity and professional independence, why does the owner's background matter?
I, for one, only want to hear rational and logical discussions of the above questions.

Cheers

Steve:
The article itself addresses this.

"The choice of Coore and Crenshaw continues an interesting departure for Trump in his U.S. golf courses. Having already selected Gil Hanse to re-do Doral, Coore and Crenshaw would further Trump's evolution from the perfectly sculpted Tom Fazio-style to a more natural, minimalist approach to design."


I for one am a little surprised at Trumps choice given his previous choices but I applaud him.  Given that Trump has delt with hundreds if not thousands of architects over the years, he must have felt that the C&C presentaion and use of land was best for this project.
As Pat has said many times, Trump is about quality and I'm happy that C&C could compete with Fazio and win the project with an experienced builder like Trump.

Read more: http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/donald-trump-hires-bill-coore-ben-crenshaw-charlottesville-golf-course#ixzz2Rfk8OijD

[Tom_Doak]

If the above mentioned team has firmly established their integrity and professional independence, why does the owner's background matter?

Steve:

The owner's background ALWAYS matters to the success of a project.  And it's important for architect and client to have a good relationship.  [Want proof?  See if you can name a great golf course where they didn't.]  That's true whether the client is Donald Trump or Mike Keiser or anyone else.

It would be better to ask whether anyone here has ANY real insight into the relationship between architect and client in this instance.  If not, there's no point in them speculating on it.

[Mac Plumart]

"The Donald" making another positive mark on the game of golf.

Like a boy becoming a man or a girl blossoming into a women...Mr. Trump's maturation in the world of golf architecture is something to behold.

-Trump International Scotland appears to be a big winner.
-Hanse at Doral
-Coore and Crenshaw in Virginia


Look out boys, here he comes!!!

[CJ Carder]

As a University alum, I'm excited to hear this!

100% agree

It's going to be interesting, however, to see how this evolves, especially as regards the business model.  The article states that the course will be public, but I can't see how the Charlottesville population can support an ultra high-end public course on it's own legs.  There's a lot of private and semi-private competition in the area....   Farmington Country Club which is a very good course and a truly outstanding club with strong ties to University Alumni.  Farmington also offers a very reasonably priced nonresident membership to alumni; a great value to those who regularly visit to see kids or attend sporting events.  Keswick Inn has a fairly good Palmer design, and Keswick is a good luxury hotel.  The Boars Head Inn, another 5 star hostelry, is tied in with the University's Birdwood Course which is a fairly good layout (and available very inexpensively to anyone with University ties).

Jamey, I don't think Farmington or Keswick would pose much threat to this course.  If you think about it, in the way of quality golf, Charlottesville really only has Farmington, Keswick, Birdwood, and Spring Creek (Gordonsville is close enough to count).  Outside of that, there's Meadowcreek, Glenmore, and Old Trail.  I don't know enough about Old Trail but I haven't heard wonderful things about Glenmore and I know from experience that Meadowcreek is an entirely different target audience.

I also know from experience how difficult it is to get a tee time at Birdwood or Spring Creek.  When I was in school, we routinely would get blocked out of any decent Birdwood tee time if it wasn't made at least a week in advance.  Throw in a football game that weekend or some other large University event and it was almost impossible.  I visited Spring Creek this past Wednesday (yes, Wednesday) and they were slammed from 8:30 am to 1 pm.  No tournament, no outing, just regular play. 

If this turns out to be a really quality course (and there's no indication to think it won't), they'll have people coming from miles around to play it.  Richmond is an hour away, DC is two hours away, and there's very little in the way of quality offerings other than those I already mentioned for probably a 40 mile radius.

I'm excited.

CJ

[Brian Ross]

This is exciting news for golf in Virginia, even if it is in Charlottesville!   Go Hokies!

I am currently researching/writing a little essay that focuses on the general lack of upper-level golden-age architecture in Virginia that I may end up sending to Ran as an IMO piece in the future.  I plan to include a section about more recent GCA here as well.  I think this project has the ability to alter the perception of golf in VA going forward and look forward to hearing more about it.  There are thousands of acres of land to the south and east of Charlottesville that would make for some great golf courses and I'm excited to see some development here.  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The article does not mention projected greens fees. Is another high end CCFAD really needed in this country or even in Charlottesville?

Given Trump's public course history,  I'd expect greens fees to be above $200.

[Jimmy Muratt]

Steve,

I don't think greens fees will be anywhere near $200.  There just isn't enough of a market nearby to support that.  I would guess between $100-$120 is about as high as they can go if they want to stay busy.

[astavrides]

.

[Tom Yost]

"... this could be one of the best golf courses in the country or in the world,"

[BCrosby]

[I am currently researching/writing a little essay that focuses on the general lack of upper-level golden-age architecture in Virginia that I may end up sending to Ran as an IMO piece in the future.  I plan to include a section about more recent GCA here as well.  I think this project has the ability to alter the perception of golf in VA going forward and look forward to hearing more about it.  There are thousands of acres of land to the south and east of Charlottesville that would make for some great golf courses and I'm excited to see some development here.  
[/quote]

Brian -

Looking forward to your piece on Virginia golf. I too have wondered why, with the state's natural resources and wealth, there aren't more top tier courses there.

Bob  

[Steve Lapper]

If the above mentioned team has firmly established their integrity and professional independence, why does the owner's background matter?

Steve:

The owner's background ALWAYS matters to the success of a project.  And it's important for architect and client to have a good relationship.  [Want proof?  See if you can name a great golf course where they didn't.]  That's true whether the client is Donald Trump or Mike Keiser or anyone else.

It would be better to ask whether anyone here has ANY real insight into the relationship between architect and client in this instance.  If not, there's no point in them speculating on it.

Tom:

My question was clearly predicated on the establishment of professional integrity of the architect, along with the implicit acknowledgement that they are given sufficient respect to practice their artistic license without destructive interference from the client. You best know that this is the formula for success. Certainly there will be those who can question whether this can happen at Charlottesville, but I believe it just might?

I've no special insight in this situation, yet I suspect neither Bill nor Ben will participate unless they feel they have the Donald's respect and a friendly enough rapport between all involved. Clearly, I'm neither speculating nor suggesting anything else.

What I think rarely matters (just ask my wife and daughters ). I'm just happy to imagine the possibility that Bill & Ben might bring their  exceptional creativity and expertise to Charlottesville.

BTW.....you are definitely right about great courses, but plenty of otherwise good courses could be cited as examples for relationships between good architects and questionable clients.

[Jim Nugent]

Trump has to see the acclaim his Scottish course is getting.  More than any other course he owns.  Maybe he's taking the cue from that with his new course.  

[Will Lozier]

Sounds like the best course in the world!

[Jim Colton]

Is Virginia the new hotbed of golf construction?

http://www.cutalong.com/blog/

[Joel_Stewart]

The clubhouse is very cool.

[Ronald Montesano]

S.P.M.U.R.T.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_societies_at_the_University_of_Virginia

[Jamey Bryan]

Jason:

On Google Maps, search for the Trump Winery Tasting Room.  Albemarle House is across Carters Mountain Road off of Ellerslie Drive.  You can still see the old Palmer Group routing that Patricia let go fallow.  There's a good bit more property that I think Trump controls so this may not be where the course is planned.

Jamey