Quail Hollow greens issue - Thanks

[Anthony_Nysse]

Jon,
  You couldn't have 2 courses further apart in comparison regarding QH and St Andrews. What other type of grass would St Andrews use? They have cool season grass in a cool season climate. QH is a cool season climate for 6 months of the year and only in the last 6-8 years have we seen ultradwafs in the transition zone because there really wasn't alternatives. Slowly courses have been removing bentgrass as its proving to be a viable surface in the winter. All over the south, course still have bentgrass-Colonial, Peachtree, Dallas National, Southern Hills, Shoal Creek, Oak Tree, Alotian to name a few, not to mention numerous courses in Charlotte. All those courses fight the balancing act, as they have 6 months of the year that would be great for either bent of bermudagrass. St Andrews has grasses that is ideal for their climate, but their climate is only conducive for one type of turf.

[Jon Wiggett]

Anthony,

is the problem at QH the choice of grass type or is it using a maintenance regime that is incorrect for the climatic conditions at the time.

St. Andrews has very little problems with its greens for two reasons. Firstly they have/encourage grass sorts that are highly suited to the all year round requirements and climate. Secondly, they adjust the maintenance regime to suit the actual climatic conditions. You suggest that there is only ONE type of grass sort they can use so it is simple.

I am assuming you are lumping all so called cool season grasses together saying they are essentially the same. St. Andrews have mainly festuca rubra... and agrostis tenuis on their greens mixed with Poa a... This is a mix of three types of grass where one of them will outperform the other two depending on the climatic conditions. The maintenance program is such that it encourage the first two grass types whilst not encouraging poa which thrives anyway. This gives excellent all year round playing surfaces though often they are not visually pleasing to some.

They could however decide to have faster greens or want greener colour and so choose another cool season grass such as an agrostis palutris which is great in Scotland for about 8 weeks of the year and really struggles for most of the winter.

There is a tendency for many to think that Scotland has just one climate but this is not correct. The key is to understand your climate ,your grasses and how to care for the playing surfaces to get the most out of them at that particular time. If greens are struggling for the time of year it is generally either wrong grass type or incorrect maintenance program. I was just asking which one it was.

Jon

[Anthony_Nysse]

Anthony,

is the problem at QH the choice of grass type or is it using a maintenance regime that is incorrect for the climatic conditions at the time.

St. Andrews has very little problems with its greens for two reasons. Firstly they have/encourage grass sorts that are highly suited to the all year round requirements and climate. Secondly, they adjust the maintenance regime to suit the actual climatic conditions. You suggest that there is only ONE type of grass sort they can use so it is simple.

I am assuming you are lumping all so called cool season grasses together saying they are essentially the same. St. Andrews have mainly festuca rubra... and agrostis tenuis on their greens mixed with Poa a... This is a mix of three types of grass where one of them will outperform the other two depending on the climatic conditions. The maintenance program is such that it encourage the first two grass types whilst not encouraging poa which thrives anyway. This gives excellent all year round playing surfaces though often they are not visually pleasing to some.

They could however decide to have faster greens or want greener colour and so choose another cool season grass such as an agrostis palutris which is great in Scotland for about 8 weeks of the year and really struggles for most of the winter.

There is a tendency for many to think that Scotland has just one climate but this is not correct. The key is to understand your climate ,your grasses and how to care for the playing surfaces to get the most out of them at that particular time. If greens are struggling for the time of year it is generally either wrong grass type or incorrect maintenance program. I was just asking which one it was.

Jon

I dont know the exacts of QH or their maintenance practices. I know that they struggled with BW in the past and had already planned to convert to an ultradwarf.
  BUt what I do know is that St Andrews does not face several months of 90+ degrees, high humidity and no breeze, which QH does. They also have numerous days of frost and sometimes snow and sleet. There is not a cure all grass for their climate, but one that has to be weighed in what times of year are acceptable to not have perfect putting greens? (Overseed, thin in spring, aerifications timing.) St Andrews is and will always be a cool season turf, weather its a bent, poa or fescus. The climates are completely different and not comparable.
  More and more courses are doing away with the difficulties of bentgrass as the ultradwarfs becaome more proven. Atlanta Athletic Club is converting the Riverside this summer, The Honors will be soon as well. Colonial is looking into it. There are all areas of the country where both grasses have their place at certain times of year, but there are risks to both. There is no risk to a cool season turf at St  Andrews. Thats all that will grow there.

[Jon Wiggett]

Anthony,

reading your answer it would seem that certainly grass choise is a major issue. If it is warm season grass weather part of the year and cool season grass another part then it is obvious there would be a need to overseed as is the common practice as far as I understand. It seems that there is now a grass that covers both bases from what you say and so this might be a solution.

You also say 'There is no risk to a cool season turf at St  Andrews.'  Are you of the opinion that it does not matter what type of cool season grass you choose that you can use any and it will grow to the required standard?

Jon

[Anthony_Nysse]

You also say 'There is no risk to a cool season turf at St  Andrews.'  Are you of the opinion that it does not matter what type of cool season grass you choose that you can use any and it will grow to the required standard?

Jon

No sir. I meant it as St Andrews is not in a transitional zone, meaning there will never be a discussion of cool vs warm grass, like some of the courses I mentioned.

[Brent Hutto]

Not to put words in Anthony's mouth but I think his point was that choosing one of the bentgrass putting surfaces or one of the available Bermuda hybrids for the Charlotte climate entails unavoidable risk. The grass that exists at St. Andrews is "no risk" in the sense of being known to survive virtually any weather it's going to encounter at that climate.

Nobody's going to point the finger at a St. Andrews superintendent and say "You should have switched to Bermuda years ago". Or vice versa.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Not to put words in Anthony's mouth but I think his point was that choosing one of the bentgrass putting surfaces or one of the available Bermuda hybrids for the Charlotte climate entails unavoidable risk. The grass that exists at St. Andrews is "no risk" in the sense of being known to survive virtually any weather it's going to encounter at that climate.

Nobody's going to point the finger at a St. Andrews superintendent and say "You should have switched to Bermuda years ago". Or vice versa.

Spot on

[John McCarthy]

Anthony:

What is the process for switching over and how long does it take? 

I'm not a turf guy and I know nothing about the subject.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I don't think anyone is comparing grass types or climates when they talk about North Carolina or Scotland. Its more a comparison of maintenance cultures.

In the US, especially at high end properties, there is pressure to always be doing something to make it better. I've use the term hyper management in the past and I still think it fits. In Scotland I sense they are more willing to sit back and let nature win sometimes...meaning if they have to back off of harmful maintenance practices and just let time help them, they will.
In the US, we are taught to attack every problem, as if we can out duel mother nature.

I worked in AZ and N TX on bent grass. Tough climates, bad water, high expectations. What I found interesting was some supers in AZ never really struggled with their bent, and for others every summer was an adventure. I tried to learn from both and what I gleaned was the guys who got thru it every summer in good shape were not the excitable type. They were perfectly OK with raising mowing heights and skipping cultural tasks in response to nature and their grass. They typically had simple programs and tried to keep it simple, with water management as the cornerstone. I think they had a similar ethos to a Scottish green keeper. Unfortunately I think those guys have been weeded out and replaced by the hyper maintenance guys because owners and members like to see their employees staying super busy. Sitting back and letting the grass recover isn't staying busy, attacking the problem is what is required today.

Yes, all of that is a very simplistic take and all just my opinion, but you have to wonder how we were able to grow bent for so long and now given all our advancements, we can't. It certainly has to do with lower heights of cut and higher expectations, and the introduction of better bermudagrass, but IMO, it also has to do with changes in our maintenance culture.

[Jon Wiggett]

Thanks for the answers though they really have not made anything clearer. I am not a warm season grass specialist so was really curious to know what the answers were. So there is no form of best practice in 'transition zones' which can offer some sort of safety when it comes to presenting the best possible playing surfaces taking into account the weather conditions. Is it really just a roll of the dice and hope for the best that is being presented?

Don,

I think what you said might be the problem. Too much aesthetics, too little substance

Jon

[Carl Johnson]

Thanks for the answers though they really have not made anything clearer. I am not a warm season grass specialist so was really curious to know what the answers were. So there is no form of best practice in 'transition zones' which can offer some sort of safety when it comes to presenting the best possible playing surfaces taking into account the weather conditions. Is it really just a roll of the dice and hope for the best that is being presented?

Don,

I think what you said might be the problem. Too much aesthetics, too little substance

Jon

Jon, as a layman, and a North Carolinian, what I've picked up is that North Carolina is definitely transition, that is, too hot for bent in the summer and too cold for Bermuda in the winter.  At this point in my limited learning it does seem to be somewhat of a roll of the dice, and then trying to manage both the greens and the expectations of the members.  I'm sure there have been a number of earlier discussions on GCA on this subject.  Here's one from several years ago you may not have seen: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45322.0.html

Carl

[Grant Saunders]

Not to put words in Anthony's mouth but I think his point was that choosing one of the bentgrass putting surfaces or one of the available Bermuda hybrids for the Charlotte climate entails unavoidable risk. The grass that exists at St. Andrews is "no risk" in the sense of being known to survive virtually any weather it's going to encounter at that climate.

Nobody's going to point the finger at a St. Andrews superintendent and say "You should have switched to Bermuda years ago". Or vice versa.

I think want Jon is getting at is the grass at St Andrews is managed to suit the conditions. It is 'no risk' as you put it because they have never adopted the low cutting heights and intensive maintenance schedule that is so common in the US. If you were to drop mowing heights to 3mm or lower and fertilise and water heavily, Im betting they would experience a whole lot of issues that they have never had to deal with before

[Steve Okula]

Thanks for the answers though they really have not made anything clearer. I am not a warm season grass specialist so was really curious to know what the answers were. So there is no form of best practice in 'transition zones' which can offer some sort of safety when it comes to presenting the best possible playing surfaces taking into account the weather conditions. Is it really just a roll of the dice and hope for the best that is being presented?

Don,

I think what you said might be the problem. Too much aesthetics, too little substance

Jon

First of all, North Carolina is not all in the transition zone. Except for the higher altitudes in the western part of the state, the majority of NC, including Charlotte, is firmly in the warm season zone. Prior to WWII, most courses there had greens of common bermudagrass or sand surfaces, or so I have learned. That was before even my time.

Second, the difference between TOC and QH is not merely aesthetic, it has a lot to do with green speeds. At a Scottish links course, with all that wind in play, green speeds of 8-9 ft. are not only acceptable but desirable, lest the course become unplayable. Meanwhile, at inland American courses, 10 ft. + speeds are normal and less than 11-12 may be considered "slow" by demanding golfers with high expectations.

It comes down to Customer perceptions and expectations.

[Chris Cupit]

Thanks for the answers though they really have not made anything clearer. I am not a warm season grass specialist so was really curious to know what the answers were. So there is no form of best practice in 'transition zones' which can offer some sort of safety when it comes to presenting the best possible playing surfaces taking into account the weather conditions. Is it really just a roll of the dice and hope for the best that is being presented?

Don,

I think what you said might be the problem. Too much aesthetics, too little substance

Jon

First of all, North Carolina is not all in the transition zone. Except for the higher altitudes in the western part of the state, the majority of NC, including Charlotte, is firmly in the warm season zone. Prior to WWII, most courses there had greens of common bermudagrass or sand surfaces, or so I have learned. That was before even my time.

Second, the difference between TOC and QH is not merely aesthetic, it has a lot to do with green speeds. At a Scottish links course, with all that wind in play, green speeds of 8-9 ft. are not only acceptable but desirable, lest the course become unplayable. Meanwhile, at inland American courses, 10 ft. + speeds are normal and less than 11-12 may be considered "slow" by demanding golfers with high expectations.

It comes down to Customer perceptions and expectations.

Steve,

I am not a superintendent and certainly not a climatologist but tI was pretty sure NC was in the heart of the transition zone.  A brief look on-line seems to confirm that.  I am more than willing to learn something new but where would I go to understand where the transition zone actually is.

Chris

[Anthony_Nysse]

Thanks for the answers though they really have not made anything clearer. I am not a warm season grass specialist so was really curious to know what the answers were. So there is no form of best practice in 'transition zones' which can offer some sort of safety when it comes to presenting the best possible playing surfaces taking into account the weather conditions. Is it really just a roll of the dice and hope for the best that is being presented?

Don,

I think what you said might be the problem. Too much aesthetics, too little substance

Jon

First of all, North Carolina is not all in the transition zone. Except for the higher altitudes in the western part of the state, the majority of NC, including Charlotte, is firmly in the warm season zone. Prior to WWII, most courses there had greens of common bermudagrass or sand surfaces, or so I have learned. That was before even my time.

Second, the difference between TOC and QH is not merely aesthetic, it has a lot to do with green speeds. At a Scottish links course, with all that wind in play, green speeds of 8-9 ft. are not only acceptable but desirable, lest the course become unplayable. Meanwhile, at inland American courses, 10 ft. + speeds are normal and less than 11-12 may be considered "slow" by demanding golfers with high expectations.

It comes down to Customer perceptions and expectations.

Steve,

I am not a superintendent and certainly not a climatologist but tI was pretty sure NC was in the heart of the transition zone.  A brief look on-line seems to confirm that.  I am more than willing to learn something new but where would I go to understand where the transition zone actually is.

Chris

I would agree 100%. Any place were you can grow warm and cool season grass, many times on the same course would be transition zone to me, when it comes to turf.

[Chris Cupit]

Here is a link to a scholarly thesis written specifically about the transition zone and grasses.  It speaks directly to bermudagrass, zoysias and bents and even defines quite specifically the "transition zone".  This paper references what seems to be well established fact and defines the transition zone as that area lying along the 37th parrallel and including a swath of area 320 km on either side of that line.  The 37th parrallel is the border between VA and NC so it seems that according to some well established scholarly work, the transition zone includes Charlotte and may even include Atlanta.

Again, I can't speak at all to any micro climate issues of Charlotte, but the transition zone is something I have heard used when describing Atlanta and I was surprised that Charoltte was considered outside of that same zone. 

The article is very long (237 page thesis) but it may interest some:

 http://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1863&context=utk_graddiss&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dclimatic%2520transition%2520zone%2520charlotte%2520nc%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D2%26ved%3D0CDUQFjAB%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Ftrace.tennessee.edu%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1863%2526context%253Dutk_graddiss%26ei%3DHnh9UY21CZKE9QTzzoGQCg%26usg%3DAFQjCNE-0mbO9qGGvlY7ynz3S6mnzzaIsg#search=%22climatic%20transition%20zone%20charlotte%20nc%22

[Steve Okula]

OK, call NC transition zone if you will, some says it is some says it ain't, but I stand by the rest of my post regarding the difference in TOC/QH green speeds, which was my essential point.

[Chris Cupit]

OK, call NC transition zone if you will, some says it is some says it ain't, but I stand by the rest of my post regarding the difference in TOC/QH green speeds, which was my essential point.

Gotcha and I do agree with the theme that the bermuda zone  is certainly creeping north!

[Steve Okula]

Many years ago, I did a summer internship at Pinehurst. Later in my career, I was a GCS in western NC for four years and for a brief spell near Elizabeth City on the NC coast. In all that time, to the best of my recollection, none of us supers ever considered NC transition zone, except, like I say, in the western mountains. It was always in my mind warm-season, whatever is written in the research papers notwithstanding .

I was schooled and began my career in Maryland, what I consider the heart of the transition zone. There, unlike NC, the winters are long and harsh enough to severely damage bermudagrass. On the other hand, the summers in MD are just as rough on the bentgrasses as they are further south.

[Brent Hutto]

So if you have the option of playing on dormant Bermuda (no overseed) during the winter, it is not "transition zone". Is that what you're saying Steve?

[Steve Okula]

So if you have the option of playing on dormant Bermuda (no overseed) during the winter, it is not "transition zone". Is that what you're saying Steve?

If I understand your question, Brent, then the answer is maybe.

I also did six years as a super in the St. Pete/Clearwater area on the Florida gulf coast.  Bermudagrass there absolutely goes dormant every winter, but even the researchers don't call mid-Florida "transition". When I was in Maryland back in the day, at Woodmont CC, they had 18 holes (of 36) with fairways in bermuda, and that went dormant like you wouldn't believe.

So you might play on dormant bermudagrass anywhere from Baltimore to Tampa, but dormant bermuda alone does not indicate transition.

[Anthony_Nysse]

So if you have the option of playing on dormant Bermuda (no overseed) during the winter, it is not "transition zone". Is that what you're saying Steve?

If I understand your question, Brent, then the answer is maybe.

I also did six years as a super in the St. Pete/Clearwater area on the Florida gulf coast.  Bermudagrass there absolutely goes dormant every winter, but even the researchers don't call mid-Florida "transition". When I was in Maryland back in the day, at Woodmont CC, they had 18 holes (of 36) with fairways in bermuda, and that went dormant like you wouldn't believe.

So you might play on dormant bermudagrass anywhere from Baltimore to Tampa, but dormant bermuda alone does not indicate transition.

Brent,
  You can't compare bermudagrass in Maryland to that of mid FL. While is may go "dormant" here in FL, it may only be for a few days and/or retain it's color, but not really growing. Bermudagrass in Maryland will shut down for months, going brown and not be able to recover from wear.

[Dan Herrmann]

Anthony - Why, then, do we see more and more bermudagrass here in PA and MD?  Sure, it shuts down, but it comes back with a vengeance.

With the way WX patterns have been the last few years, anybody up here that doesn't syringe their bentgrass greens AND do bi-annual aeration probably has greens that are in jeopardy.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Anthony - Why, then, do we see more and more bermudagrass here in PA and MD?  Sure, it shuts down, but it comes back with a vengeance.

With the way WX patterns have been the last few years, anybody up here that doesn't syringe their bentgrass greens AND do bi-annual aeration probably has greens that are in jeopardy.

I think that the winters are too harsh for an ultradwarf at this point. Way too many days under 35 degrees, snow and your growing days (Daytime high and night time low=150) probably stop in September and start in June. I dont know when you'd aerify-in the fall it wouldnt heal and in the spring would take too long to heal. I do not think that turfgrass is at though point yet.

[Tom_Doak]

Isn't it amazing how often these tournament courses have major agronomic problems, despite all the expert advice?

Why doesn't anyone ever draw the conclusion that they are pushing their greens way too hard?

When is the last time St. Andrews "lost their greens" ?

It was I who made the comparison between St. Andrews and Quail Hollow [which sounds silly when I say it that way], and I'm sorry that it caused so much time wasted arguing about the difficulties of the transition zone.

Quail Hollow is indeed in a tougher climate, which is just one more reason they shouldn't push their greens to the brink of death on a daily basis.  And when they lose grass, it shouldn't be a shock if that's what they've been doing.