[Brent Hutto]

I doubt it is much more than "couple of times a month" or perhaps even less at my club. Hard to say as most weeks I'm only around on Saturday and Sunday and might not notice what's going on earlier in the week. But certainly not multiple times per week.

[Sam Morrow]

Sure the greens were very grainy but I can look past that, heck I think they rolled very well, just slow into the grain. I won't even begin to speculate on the maintenance budget at Pine Dunes, all I know is that if those greens are the biggest complaint then things are very good.

[Lou_Duran]

The following suggests verticutting 2-4 times per month in the growing season.

http://text.lsuagcenter.com/en/lawn_garden/commercial_horticulture/turfgrass/golf_course_management/Managing+Ultradwarf+Greens.htm

Perhaps what I referred to earlier (3-4 x per week) is brushing and grooming.  I'll ask Tony Nysse for his input.

[Lou_Duran]

Sure the greens were very grainy but I can look past that, heck I think they rolled very well, just slow into the grain. I won't even begin to speculate on the maintenance budget at Pine Dunes, all I know is that if those greens are the biggest complaint then things are very good.

I suspect that the biggest complaint at Pine Dunes is not enough players, which has a bearing on the maintenance budget.
 
Most industry people I've talked to regarding consumer preferences give the highest priority to the condition of the greens.  I can handle slow greens.  I didn't find PD's all that slow, just very grainy.  Perhaps it is my stroke, but my ball seemed to skip and zag more than it rolled.  I can't think of a single putt that held a line.  Or maybe it is my eyesight. 

[Sam Morrow]

Sure the greens were very grainy but I can look past that, heck I think they rolled very well, just slow into the grain. I won't even begin to speculate on the maintenance budget at Pine Dunes, all I know is that if those greens are the biggest complaint then things are very good.

I suspect that the biggest complaint at Pine Dunes is not enough players, which has a bearing on the maintenance budget.
 
Most industry people I've talked to regarding consumer preferences give the highest priority to the condition of the greens.  I can handle slow greens.  I didn't find PD's all that slow, just very grainy.  Perhaps it is my stroke, but my ball seemed to skip and zag more than it rolled.  I can't think of a single putt that held a line.  Or maybe it is my eyesight. 

Indian or Arrow?

[Lou_Duran]

More like horses for courses.  While this Indian hasn't been firing well for quite some time, my arrows are adequate on bent greens and well-maintained (read: minimal grain) bermudas.

[Sam Morrow]

Sorry Lou we saw putts made, not just in our group but the guys in front of us that morning. Sometimes we can't blame the greens and need to make better strokes.

[Lou_Duran]

That is always the goal, making better strokes.  In both of our groups I can't remember a putt of any length much over 5'-10' made.  There is a skill in putting on grainy bermuda greens.  It has escaped me in the 35 years since I left Columbus for Dallas.  Just a slow learner, I guess.

[Steve Lang]

   Michael, thanks from Ms Sheila and Me on setting things up for PD.  Is it true you haven't missed a fairway since 1984???

 Lou, I assume you were shakin your head all the way home about those grainy greens!!!   I was thinkin for a while about using my PW for lag putting, but just chalked it up to the heat.. and wondered if they left the greens a bit shaggy to help deal with the 90-100 degF conditions or just hadn't gotten to punching them.

At the WCC we've aerated twice so far this year and they get verticut too, so they roll quite nicely.. i haven't had so many 2/3rds the length type chips and putts in some time, but did make some puts to par out the last 4 holes saturday.. and ms sheila's birdie on 3 was about 15 feet or so...  for me it perhaps was more unfocussed indian in hot weather, keeping ice water flowing more important.

p.s. PD really shouldn't call their place a "Resort".. one look at the tennis court's weeds and sagging net reminded me of Waterwood Nat'l when it started really slipping away..  love the course though really, having ice and no cups before 9 AM was a bit tacky for a resort..

[Sam Morrow]

They had all that stuff in the shop, I bought a Coke at about 7 in there.

[Eric Pevoto]

Coincidentally, a guy in town for the US Open whose home course is PD played my place this weekend. He was from one of the tiny towns around Palestine. Said good things about the course and the owner. Nice to hear an East Texas accent again.

[Steve Lang]

  coke in a bottle... ya must have wiped him out of cups, as he had none at 8 am when we checked in and he looked... just a minor irritation.. seems they're running on a shoestring budget...

now... Sam, what round did you putt the best? 1, 2, or 3?

[Sam Morrow]

I pitted fairly well all 3 actually, I should have snapped my driver though.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Snapped your driver...why on earth?
I cant think of more than two fairways that you missed.
We both putted better in the PM round that is for sure.
The grain did take a little getting used to, the graineiest I have played for some time, but again that did not spoil the day at all.

I think the lay out and flow of the course is such that it is so enjoyable it is hard to get mad at anything out there.
I am sure their budget would shock most of us, and how they manage to keep it is as good as it is a marvel.
As Tom Doak says it truly is a hidden gem.....perhaps too well hidden?

[Greg Clark]

Thanks for setting the event up Michael.  It was great to see familiar faces and meet new ones as well.  In addition to the golf, the story telling on Friday night was a highlight - although Ms. Sheila's birdie on #3 ranks up there as well.

In regards to Pine Dunes, I still remain a fan.  I would guess that it was nearly 10 years ago when I drove out on a steaming July afternoon to take a look at a course that I had heard good things about.  I was hooked almost immediately.  The course had an almost yellowish hue to it and was very firm.  The greens were running somewhere around 11-12 and were along with Woodforest down near The Woodlands, the best Tiff Eagle greens I had ever putted on.  Over the years I have probably returned 6-7 times prior to this weekend.  Unfortunately the greens have never approached the quality of that initial visit.  The overall condition of the course is still very good, and the quality of the architecture, and flow of the holes is very good. 

The greens have great coverage of grass on them, have no disease, and roll pretty true - they just have a lot of grain.  As someone who plays a reasonable amount of public golf in Texas, I don't find them significantly more grainy than what many publics down here possess.  That being said, it is clear that over the years how they maintain the greens have taken a bit of interest away from what were exceptional greens. 

[Sam Morrow]

Snapped your driver...why on earth?
I cant think of more than two fairways that you missed.
We both putted better in the PM round that is for sure.
The grain did take a little getting used to, the graineiest I have played for some time, but again that did not spoil the day at all.

I think the lay out and flow of the course is such that it is so enjoyable it is hard to get mad at anything out there.
I am sure their budget would shock most of us, and how they manage to keep it is as good as it is a marvel.
As Tom Doak says it truly is a hidden gem.....perhaps too well hidden?

Agreed, but I still hate my driver.

[Sam Morrow]

Thanks for setting the event up Michael.  It was great to see familiar faces and meet new ones as well.  In addition to the golf, the story telling on Friday night was a highlight - although Ms. Sheila's birdie on #3 ranks up there as well.

In regards to Pine Dunes, I still remain a fan.  I would guess that it was nearly 10 years ago when I drove out on a steaming July afternoon to take a look at a course that I had heard good things about.  I was hooked almost immediately.  The course had an almost yellowish hue to it and was very firm.  The greens were running somewhere around 11-12 and were along with Woodforest down near The Woodlands, the best Tiff Eagle greens I had ever putted on.  Over the years I have probably returned 6-7 times prior to this weekend.  Unfortunately the greens have never approached the quality of that initial visit.  The overall condition of the course is still very good, and the quality of the architecture, and flow of the holes is very good. 

The greens have great coverage of grass on them, have no disease, and roll pretty true - they just have a lot of grain.  As someone who plays a reasonable amount of public golf in Texas, I don't find them significantly more grainy than what many publics down here possess.  That being said, it is clear that over the years how they maintain the greens have taken a bit of interest away from what were exceptional greens. 

Very well said my friend.

[Lou_Duran]

Lou, I assume you were shakin your head all the way home about those grainy greens!!!   I was thinkin for a while about using my PW for lag putting, but just chalked it up to the heat.. and wondered if they left the greens a bit shaggy to help deal with the 90-100 degF conditions or just hadn't gotten to punching them.

At the WCC we've aerated twice so far this year and they get verticut too, so they roll quite nicely.. i haven't had so many 2/3rds the length type chips and putts in some time, but did make some puts to par out the last 4 holes saturday.. and ms sheila's birdie on 3 was about 15 feet or so...  for me it perhaps was more unfocussed indian in hot weather, keeping ice water flowing more important.

I don't dwell too long on my bad golf; like the high unemployment of the past six years, it has become the "new normal".

Bermuda loves heat.  And I didn't think the greens were shaggy- they actually looked very good and the speed was adequate.  They are just not being maintained to control the grain.

It is good that you remember Sheila's 15' putt.  You might not have seen the 3' bird she missed on the same hole in the morning round which she gunned through the grain (I would normally say break, but grain is the larger factor).  If you recall, she noted a few times how hard a time she was having with her putting, which, I suspect, is a strength in her game.  And her aggressive, Tom Watson approach is the best for those types of greens, particularly if one is unconcerned about having to make the comebackers.  BTW, perhaps I was too tied up tending to my wounds and missed your fine finish, but what was the total feet of your last four putts?  I can't remember you making anything longer than 4' or 5'.

I don't know which public courses Mr. Clark is referring to, but the only course I've played with grainier greens in quite some time is the 9-hole pitch-'N-putt in our subdivision.  TifEagle appears to be losing out locally in favor of MiniVerde and Champion.  BTW, I think the excellent greens at Woodforest GC north of Houston are grassed with MV.  Pine Dunes would do well to focus on the greens as Woodforest has, making them the feature which differentiates the course from its competition.  OK, enough whining. 

[Sam Morrow]

I guess our group and Greg were the only ones who had fun.

[Greg Clark]

When I played Woodforest two summers ago the head pro told me the greens were Tiff Eagle, and that their super had been there for several years and really knew what he was doing.  It is certainly possible that they re-grassed since then, but I doubt it.  A quick google search shows a few review sites listing the greens as Tiff Eagle.  Whoever the super is there, he would be the first person I would call on how to maintain Tiff Eagle greens because they are excellent.

[Lou_Duran]

I guess our group and Greg were the only ones who had fun.

Wow, that's quite an extension.  Don't like the grain = not having fun???

As Greg noted, grain is part and parcel of playing golf in the South.  Just like the heat, one has to take the bad with the good, and PD has a bunch of good.  It is a pity, IMO, that they don't go the extra mile and get the rest right.  If it had Woodforest quality greens, it would push the Top 10 in Texas.

Re: Woodforest, I played it this year and my notes have the greens as MV.  It could be wrong.  I just called the club and the asst. said they were bermuda, but didn't know the type (left a message for the GM).  But if they are TifEagle, then we have some evidence that it is the maintenance and not the type of grass.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Oaky fellas...to setlle this everyone come to Texrakana CC and play some old Bermuda greens, no tif this tif that,  no mini this mini that , just good old fashioned Bermuda that is wonderfully cared for and exhibits very little prominent grain..come on down!!!! or up or across

[Sam Morrow]

Relax Lou, take a deep breathe

[Lou_Duran]

If I was more relaxed I'd be falling asleep.  Or worse.

I'd take a nap but I need to head out to Gentle Creek for a short lesson.  Talk about self deception.  Might even work on that stroke on the second grainiest greens in Texas.

MWP- I look forward to the Texarkana CC outing.  Very enjoyable, walkable golf course and a club I'd enjoy being a part of.  BTW, you may wish to check on the greens, but I think they're Champion, probably my favorite of the ultradwarfs.  Whatever they are, the grain is under control and they're great.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

When did Champion come about?

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