Is the Death of the Regional Architect next?

[Jud_T]

Tom,

An interesting subject.  What challenges do you find now that guys like you and Bill C. are household names in the business, yet you built your reputation in part by spending considerably more time on site, in the dirt coaxing out what the land had to offer, than the prior generation of global names?  Aside from taking what's there as opposed to imposing something drawn up at home, how do you balance the number of jobs and the travel involved?  Have you turned down any really good projects because you just didn't have sufficient time to allocate to them?  Have you ever felt your first principals were at risk of being compromised due to an overloaded schedule or unavailability of local talent of sufficient quality?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ian and the others are right, in that it takes a lot of money to pursue any job these days.  In any design field, the typical "go after to get" ratio is at least 7 to 1. For some firms, its 10 to 1.  For the elite who have clients calling in just two or three top architects, its stilll at least 3:1.

When West Fargo ND put out their job for RFP, I decided to go after it.  RFP was sort of late, so air fare to just go shake their hand and take site photos was $659 (don't ask me why I remember that one).  Add in rental car and hotel at $100 each.  Putting together proposals takes some work and when they ask for 10 copies, at about $1 per page and maybe 50 pages, it can cost $500 to print them.  For some reason, I recall having to pay a super express charge for FedEx to pick it up at my house the night before and still get it there (some kind of family illness)

Of course, I got the interview, and flew back up at slightly lesser expense.  Paid Tommy Knockers something for some renderings, put in time on a power point, etc.  Natually, lost to the bigger name Tom Lehmann, despite a personal reference/lead in from someone they knew, and the parks guy liking my proposal best, with the developer wanting the pro name for lot sales around the golf course.

Not complaining, but just shows that each proposal can cost $5-10K, and 6-9 of those fail, meaning the sales cost to get one job is really $35-100K.  And, the fees are really not much more than that.  It seems like the same process holds true of master plans these days, and those fees have dropped from $35K to $15K........

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

An interesting subject.  What challenges do you find now that guys like you and Bill C. are household names in the business, yet you built your reputation in part by spending considerably more time on site, in the dirt coaxing out what the land had to offer, than the prior generation of global names?  Aside from taking what's there as opposed to imposing something drawn up at home, how do you balance the number of jobs and the travel involved?  Have you turned down any really good projects because you just didn't have sufficient time to allocate to them?  Have you ever felt your first principals were at risk of being compromised due to an overloaded schedule or unavailability of local talent of sufficient quality?

Jud:

I can't speak for Bill, but he seems plenty busy right now after a dry spell a couple of years ago.

I have never turned down a great job, anywhere -- there aren't that many of them -- but certainly I've declined to pursue many "good" jobs because I just don't have the time to do them all, or they are too far from home.  That's no different today than it was when things were booming.

I think my company is designed well for the current economy.  Part of the genius of minimalism is that we aren't making that many changes, to begin with; and I've got the world's fastest shapers working for me, so that when I do spend a few days on site, we can get a lot of those changes done in a hurry.  I'm very comfortable leaving one of those guys to make the day-to-day project management decisions, and concentrate my time around the shaping of the greens and whatever other features I think are important to the success of the project.  That's really how all of my best projects have been built, though I had a little more time to focus on Pacific Dunes back when we had nothing else going on.

The one thing I don't control is when these projects happen ... so I've spent most of the last five months sitting and waiting, and now for the next six months I'm trying to cover jobs on four continents at the same time.  I'm not worried that the quality of the golf courses will suffer, because there are a lot of good people in place to make sure it doesn't.  I just wish I had more time to relax between assignments, and I will probably not commit to so many things at one time again, even though my associates would prefer I keep going full speed.

[Peter Pallotta]

Just an aside: I don't know how you guys stand it -- wonderful careers and bodies of work behind you, and you are still called to 'audition' 9 out of 10 times. Reminds me of a friend of mine, a very talented and well respected actor who has worked steadily in film and television for years/decades. And yet one movie producer and/or director after another -- people who say they LOVE film and who LOVE actors -- still insist on calling him (and a dozen others just like him) in for 'auditions', in essence asking that he prove himself all over again, just for them and for a particular role that, if they gave it two seconds of thought, they'd KNOW my friend could do perfectly well.  Over the years, I've come to believe that a) auditions have nothing to do with the art/craft or even the business of film, but simply with POWER -- the desire of the money and/or decision-making people to lord that power over everyone and anyone they can, and b) that in the constant exercising of power, the decision-makers prove not that they love actors but that they HATE them. I mean, I don't feel strongly about actors one way or another, but even I -- if I was ever in a position to cast a film -- would never DREAM of subjecting talented and proven actors  to the b.s. of an audition, and to the waiting on pins and needles for a call that never came. If there was an actor whose work I'd liked in the past and who I believed would be right for the part, I'd call him and offer him the job straightaway. Anything else strikes me as the ego-driven and mean-spirit machinations of the 'industry'. I'm sorry to hear that you group of very talented and committed architects has to put up with it -- but I admire your toughness in doing so.

Peter

[Mike Nuzzo]

Peter
That is an interesting point
Because 9/10 times they already know who they want, so why do they go through the process
Sometimes it is professional, especially if they offer to pay expenses
But sometimes it isn't

[Tom_Doak]

Peter:

You must have been in the back for the Rio presentations, I didn't see you there.   

Generally speaking, I don't do auditions.  I'm not really good at them, because maybe they sense I feel as you described.  In my experience, most clients just interview architects one at a time until they find the person they like, and then if they're still committed to meeting others, it's probably just a waste of time for the guys who come along afterward.

Even so, I would never sign up a job before going to look at the site and meet the owner and see if they're a good fit for me -- and if they are overseas, that's a pretty significant time commitment in itself. 

[Mike_Young]

Peter,
Over the last 25 years I know of at least 10 , 35 year old development company VP's who would interview the professional golfer type designers so that they could tell friends how "tight" they were with each.  And the pros knew it and would work it hard.  Bird hunting, fishing all types of "experiences" with their new best friends    

[Ronald Montesano]

PPPP...

Don't those "auditioneers" have to justify their own existence/right to work as well? That must go hand in hand with the power trip.

The child in me will always love the premise of Frodo, the only one who wants to get dispose of the power.

[Ian Andrew]

Peter,

When I first began it wasn’t uncommon to be invited to work with a club and the interviews were fairly simple talking about your experience rather than the club. Over the years the club requirements have changed. Some want a written proposal, others want a presentation of what you see, many ask for a course walk and each of these is designed to see a fit, but also you know afterwards some clubs have gone through this with you (and others) to extract as much information because they already had their target architect in mind.

This used to have a smaller interview process with a couple of selected architects, but the number has increased each decade and so have the number of interviews. It’s pretty common to see a club twice with larger interview processes. Most will not cover initial expenses but it’s rare for them to not cover the second stage. It’s expensive to finish second, because of the time involved comes at a cost too. I’ve just had back to back second place finishes and its crushing.

The time involved has dramatically increased since 2000 and even more so since 2008. The clubs want to see more and other architects are offering more as competition goes up. If you don’t have the reputation where only you presence is enough, you have to do more to try and attract the work. That’s life for “second tier” (the vast majority) architect.

The way this has worked for me on a personal level is I put in the same amount of time I always did into work, but I work most evenings and lately on the week-ends too to put together what I need for each interview or RFP process going on presently. If you don’t make the effort, you won’t get the work.

I still get the occasional call to simply come work with a club, which thankfully makes my life so much easier. But as Tom said a few weeks back, almost every club is now spoken for and twenty years ago that wasn’t the case. So opportunities are fewer and that’s why things have changed.

The only way we get to change that is by being financially stable enough not to need the work or busy enough to pass on a process. Being a single person business working out of my house makes both possible.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I was recently told by a VP of a major RE development company that is planning a new golf course community that the golf course would be designed by someone "well known" but not Nicklaus as he doesn't like Nicklaus courses.

[Tom_Doak]

Peter,

When I first began it wasn’t uncommon to be invited to work with a club and the interviews were fairly simple talking about your experience rather than the club. Over the years the club requirements have changed. Some want a written proposal, others want a presentation of what you see, many ask for a course walk and each of these is designed to see a fit, but also you know afterwards some clubs have gone through this with you (and others) to extract as much information because they already had their target architect in mind.

This used to have a smaller interview process with a couple of selected architects, but the number has increased each decade and so have the number of interviews. It’s pretty common to see a club twice with larger interview processes. Most will not cover initial expenses but it’s rare for them to not cover the second stage. It’s expensive to finish second, because of the time involved comes at a cost too. I’ve just had back to back second place finishes and its crushing.

The time involved has dramatically increased since 2000 and even more so since 2008. The clubs want to see more and other architects are offering more as competition goes up. If you don’t have the reputation where only you presence is enough, you have to do more to try and attract the work. That’s life for “second tier” (the vast majority) architect.

The way this has worked for me on a personal level is I put in the same amount of time I always did into work, but I work most evenings and lately on the week-ends too to put together what I need for each interview or RFP process going on presently. If you don’t make the effort, you won’t get the work.

Ian:

Hasn't the ASGCA helped to create this process?  I could be wrong, since I'm not a member and don't see what they are doing except occasionally from the sidelines, but my sense was that they have promoted the RFP process and provided sample RFP documents to clubs, most of which were geared toward interviewing "qualified" ASGCA member architects.

That's one reason that until recently I had avoided any process that had to do with an RFP ... I thought if they were taking advice on procedure from the ASGCA, I probably wasn't going to get the job.

[Ian Andrew]

Hasn't the ASGCA helped to create this process?  I could be wrong, since I'm not a member and don't see what they are doing except occasionally from the sidelines, but my sense was that they have promoted the RFP process and provided sample RFP documents to clubs, most of which were geared toward interviewing "qualified" ASGCA member architects.

That's one reason that until recently I had avoided any process that had to do with an RFP ... I thought if they were taking advice on procedure from the ASGCA, I probably wasn't going to get the job.

I don't think so, or at least not at all in my experiences.

I found them becoming common as we saw the emmergence of GM's as COO at the club. I find they are now often running "the process."  The members conduct the review, interviews and decision after the process is developed and set.

At least that's my experience...

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,

Yes, ASGCA provides a "standard" RFP document.  Yes we (in reality, me, since I wrote the damn thing) threw in the ASGCA part.  My sense is that this gets removed most of the time, but I had a recent case where they did stand by that and threw out some non ASGCA guys.

What ASGCA does is try to help those in the industry by helping clients hire architects the "right way" on qualifications rather than who knows what, especially fees alone, although there is also no way to control that.  Many cities and clubs really have no idea how to hire an architect and this does seem to have helped many.  Obviously many do, but its not aimed at them.  As you and Ian point out, many clubs have been to the rodeo before and sure know enough to write a better request for proposal than I do, usually with each entity modifying it considerably to fit their needs.   

I wrote it by cobbling together the best of RFP's I had seen, so we sure didn't create the process.  And, ASGCA certainly has no problems with clubs hiring gca's they know and are familiar with based on past work.  For those who don't know the process, it has made it a little more reasonable from the architects POV, and shortening it to something reasonable.  The goal was to encourage those owners not to require 50 copies of something, free designs, etc., all to reduce costs and get a better process IF they have no idea.

Is it perfect? Of course not, considering who wrote it.  It has served a useful purpose for many in the industry, but a "one size fits all" document obviously has some limitations.

BTW, for those who want to nitpick other ASGCA documents, I wrote a lot of those for them, too, including 4 architectural contracts (modifying AIA documents with AIA's permission) and a standard set of general conditions issued by the GCBAA and ASGCA for golf construction.  Oh yeah, I was one of several who amped up the membership process to what it is now (they still use a few of the documents I prepared back in 1996 or so, while having evolved out of others).

Just trying to help my fellow architects, not trying to be pure evil

[Mike_Young]

What ASGCA does is try to help those in the industry by helping clients hire architects the "right way" on qualifications rather than who knows what, especially fees alone, although there is also no way to control that. 

 Oh yeah, I was one of several who amped up the membership process to what it is now

Just trying to help my fellow architects, not trying to be pure evil

Jeff ( Dr. Evil)
You now have me totally confused....I always thought knowing "what" was the same as being qualified.  you little devil you...hmmmm....

[Sean_A]

Is the premise not typical of any mature industry?  It resonates in the banking industry where we've long been headed to bifurcation  between large national banks and smaller community banks.  Scale, efficiency and brand recognition on one end of the spectrum - nimbleness and personal relationships with decision-makers on the other.

Bogey

Absolutely.  Tell me small manufacturers don't have to chase niche work.  Many times small guys get lucky and land good contracts only to see client drive prices down ASAP.  The 3rd or 4th year of a contract being the opportunity to make money after recouping "chasing" costs is just the time the big boys squeeze the client and demand prices drop by X% per year and that is if they are lucky the entire process hasn't gone out to tender again.  There is so little loyalty in manufacturing when price per unit has to drop X% per year. 

Ciao

[Bernie Bell]

Any updated thoughts on this subject, 8 years from OP and after the pandemic? 

I'm prompted to ask by the Philadelphia Inquirer today, which has a total of 3 independently reported stories in the entire A section of the Sunday paper.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Living in Virginia and for fifty years in Maryland, there are few courses that Ault/Clark haven't touched. Ed was a fixture at clubs around the area either designing or renovating. After Ed died his son and Tom Clark spread their wings a bit but I wonder how busy they are now. I hope they are doing well because they were so important to the area.

[Jeff_Brauer]

In the big picture, I doubt much has changed, as big picture items rarely do. 


Bob Cupp used to say that 8 gca's got 80% of the work, leaving the (then) 300 gca's to fight over the last 20%.  Those 8 have changed out over time, as has always been the case, and the other fighters have probably reduced by over 100.


On the other hand, we see a lot of relatively new faces (some spreading out at the encouragement of their more famous bosses) who are getting more and better projects.  I guess you would have to call them either regional, or maybe just young architects, like Brian Ross living in Texas but working in Tennessee.  It's a cycle, and whenever the bigs get either too busy, too expensive, or too full of themselves, there is a niche in the marketplace that must be filled.  That the US is a youth oriented culture helps those get started, at least IMHO.


I remember being that young guy!  Fun times.


As to some of the other things discussed, like selling work, I see things as still the same, although as Ian mentioned, I believe the sales process has been mastered by more and more consultants.  Instead of touting their past work, it seems more effective now to just present your vision for their course, and hope (or know through research) that it matches theirs.  If I show any pictures of my past work now, it is always with a comment that basically says, "and this is just like your project because....." I find that 3D renderings of at least one proposed green are almost standard and necessary now. (One project told me they hired the other guy because their 3D renderings were better than my quickies.)


I recommend any gca trying to stay in biz read "Selling the Invisible."  It explains why the big names have it so much easier in selling, i.e., the biggest thing a selection committee wants to avoid is making a mistake....and as the old saying went (needs to be updated) "no one ever got fired for hiring IBM.


Short version, I remember my Dad (A Campbell Soup salesman, so he had brand name going for him) uttering within a year of his retirement, "When does this get any easier?"


No, nothing has changed, LOL.

[Tom_Doak]

Bernie:


I’d say the pandemic will help shift focus back to the regional guy a bit (or the international guy who finds regional guys to help).


From a sustainability perspective, it has never made any sense to have the architect flying in 1 day/week, or to import five guys from Michigan (or a construction company from Nebraska) to do the construction.  The more talented people you can source from close by, the better off you are.


COVID really brought that home.  Had I been working on projects in Canada, they’d have been totally stymied for the last 16 months.  For St Patrick’s, my crew was one American lead associate, two EU citizens as shapers (Clyde Johnson and Angela Moser, take a bow), and even interns from the EU.  So when the SHTF when we were 75% done, we managed to finish with Eric making one extended trip back and me, zero.  You’ve gotta trust the hell out of your team to make that work, but it is way more sustainable in many many ways.


I’m 60 now, so my appetite for taking on international work is dwindling; but TBH I have looked at a ton of overseas jobs but I’ve only ever taken the ones which had all-world sites or clients or both.  Traveling back and forth to New Zealand is not as glamorous or as easy as people imagine!  I am doing my visa application now for the course down the beach from Tara Iti, and NZ Immigration sent me their records which show that I have been to NZ THIRTY TIMES since 2001, to build two courses and plan a third (and enjoy them a little).  That’s a lot of air miles but also a lot of wear and tear on one’s body.

[Niall C]

Let me ask the question; if you have regional architects, do you have regional architecture in the same way that in buildings you have architecture that follows the local vernacular ?


Niall

[Tom_Doak]

Let me ask the question; if you have regional architects, do you have regional architecture in the same way that in buildings you have architecture that follows the local vernacular ?

Yes.  You don’t see flashy bunkers in places where there’s clay or where it rains too much, because they won’t hold up.  You don’t see holes in valleys in Asia, because of monsoons. That’s just common sense, but if you only work in those places it quickly becomes your style.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Isn't one of the complaints about golf that there really isn't a lot of regionality in design or playing conditions anymore?  There used to be a big difference in playing and putting Bermuda greens over Bent, but that is minimized or eliminated now.


And, with the national/international architects going everywhere, and sort of hired to bring "their style" to a project, those bunker differences sometimes get ignored.  When times were good, many owners figured they could throw money at bunker washouts.  When times are tough, they will often change any of those design items that didn't fit well in local conditions.


Seeing those pics of TPC Sawgrass, where many of Pete's waste bunkers got grassed over.  I was told it was because it was too hard to maintain in the climate where stuff just grows through the sand too well. 


Short version, I think any national architect ought to pay attention and at least tweak their design style, rather than standardize it.

[Niall C]

Let me ask the question; if you have regional architects, do you have regional architecture in the same way that in buildings you have architecture that follows the local vernacular ?

Yes.  You don’t see flashy bunkers in places where there’s clay or where it rains too much, because they won’t hold up.  You don’t see holes in valleys in Asia, because of monsoons. That’s just common sense, but if you only work in those places it quickly becomes your style.

Yes common sense, but you could also call it nuts and bolts engineering to suit the specific situation. What about the "artistic" elements ? Do you see much change region to region or is the difference between the styles of individual architects ?


Niall

[Tom_Doak]

Seeing those pics of TPC Sawgrass, where many of Pete's waste bunkers got grassed over.  I was told it was because it was too hard to maintain in the climate where stuff just grows through the sand too well. 

That's correct, but Pete wasn't bringing in that style from somewhere else.  He invented the waste bunker to try to make the TPC at Sawgrass affordable to maintain, because the TOUR didn't have much money in the bank in 1979.  Of all the changes in golf over my career, that's one of the biggest.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Let me ask the question; if you have regional architects, do you have regional architecture in the same way that in buildings you have architecture that follows the local vernacular ?


Niall

Absolutely. There are a few in FL & The Carolinas that don't venture across state lines much. Jerry Matthews was the master of this in MI. Other than a few, 99% of his work was in MI. (Not sure that's even regional, then?)