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John Burnes

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Philmont cc
« on: April 15, 2013, 10:55:50 PM »
anyone ever play it?  Your thoughts? North or South course, please specify.

http://philmontcc.org

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Bill Shotzbarger

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2013, 12:04:07 AM »
I looped there from ages 14-18. There's a huge thread on who designed it if you use the search function.
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2013, 12:31:06 AM »
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Jim Sherma

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2013, 09:02:14 AM »
The North is a very good golf course. It's been a while sine I played it so my memory isn't too clear. I doubt it's long enough for real bombers to feel challenged, but I thought it was a really great day out and a good test. Good rolling land and a nice set of shots are asked for. I would certainly jump at the opportunity to play it again.
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Joe Bausch

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2013, 09:18:39 AM »
Last May I did a photo tour of Philmont North.  Here is the link:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52162.0.html
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The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mark McKeever

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2013, 04:44:32 PM »
I've played both courses and prefer the North course over the South.  Both could use a few trees coming out, but the architecture is pretty good.  The North course is a delightful Willie Park Jr. but I can't think of the South course archie at the moment..  Joe ?


Mark 
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archie_struthers

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2013, 02:57:36 AM »
 8) ;D :D

Thought the architect is Philly's own  William Flynn with his pal Toomey.   Is it a redo of a Willie Park ?..   Lots of Flynn there.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 11:01:00 AM by archie_struthers »
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Joe Bausch

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2013, 10:26:08 AM »
Quote from: Mark McKeever on April 18, 2013, 04:44:32 PM
I've played both courses and prefer the North course over the South.  Both could use a few trees coming out, but the architecture is pretty good.  The North course is a delightful Willie Park Jr. but I can't think of the South course archie at the moment..  Joe ?


Mark 

South course was John Reid.
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The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2013, 10:36:49 AM »
I've played both courses many times. South is an interesting course but is not as challenging as North. The greens on North have a lot of character and can be quite fast, particularly on Member - Guest days when the club showcases the course. North hosted a Nike Tour event for 2 years and the pros liked the course and scored well. North is a par70. The club's annual North-South Invitational is their big event.

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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2013, 11:11:17 AM »
Quote from: archie_struthers on April 20, 2013, 02:57:36 AM
8) ;D :D

Thought the architect is Philly's own  William Flynn with his pal Toomey.   Is it a redo of a Willie Park ?..   Lots of Flynn there.

Archie, "Shirley" you jest.  That's like saying William Flynn did our course ;D :D 8)

In all seriousness, I see no Flynn there at all, and my understanding is there is no empirical evidence Flynn had a hand in designing it.   The land is similar to other Delaware valley/suburban Philadelphia courses, many of which are Flynn, so it has that sort of gently hilly feel to it similar to Philadelphia CC, Rolling Green, Manufacturers, and then Lehigh out of the immediate area, but look at the bunkering and greensites, not to mention the appearance of the par threes.  Flynn sited his greens differently, routed his holes differently.  Flynn holes just have a certain feel and appearance to them.  
This is completely different.  Look at pictures of Woodway (CT) and then come back and look at Philmont.  Philmont and Woodway are more similar in appearance than, say, Philmont and Manufacturers.  And more similar in architectural lineage.  Willie Park, Jr. is something to be proud of.  
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 12:30:13 PM by Doug Braunsdorf »
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2013, 11:16:16 AM »
"Shirley" says this about Flynn:

Gordon more than likely worked for Toomey & Flynn, the construction company, and not William Flynn, the golf course designer/architect. Why wasn't Flynn in the opening day picture? According to the article, Henry Strouse, the Philmont member, was "in charge of construction" and "as the work progressed HE(emphasis added) changed the plans to meet conditions overlooked in the beginning." Ford states, "Park's original design was followed only in a general way." Why didn't Ford mention Gordon or Flynn in the article? I'd attribute North to Park/Strouse based on this article and the fact no Flynn drawings exist for Philmont North among the trove found in the barn.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39003.msg815392/topicseen.html#msg815392
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
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archie_struthers

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2013, 10:54:59 PM »
 ??? ???  ???

Now I'm really confused , which is ok as this is a learning experience,here on GCA.  For years they've played the Flynn Cup and Philmont has always been included in the mix . If its not a Flynn , then ??????

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Doug Braunsdorf

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2013, 12:27:25 AM »
Quote from: archie_struthers on April 20, 2013, 10:54:59 PM
??? ???  ???

Now I'm really confused , which is ok as this is a learning experience,here on GCA.  For years they've played the Flynn Cup and Philmont has always been included in the mix . If its not a Flynn , then ??????



Archie,

  Ever watch Dave Chappelle...
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"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2013, 12:42:47 AM »
The Philmont member who was a moving force behind The Flynn Cup, a local event for Flynn clubs,  is no longer a member there. The North American article referenced above was not known until Joe Bausch discovered it. Joe met with the member and was essentially stonewalled on the Park, Jr attribution and information in  the article. Since he has left the club, perhaps things will change there.

I  believe Philmont is no longer invited to participate in the Flynn Invitational, an event for nationwide Flynn clubs.
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

archie_struthers

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2013, 06:49:11 AM »
 ;D :D ;)

Thanks men, appreciate the enlightenment!  The Flynn Cup got me .  I am a bit surprised at it being on the rota for so long, assumed  that Flynn had done some serious restoration work akin to Atlantic City CC.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 09:34:19 AM by archie_struthers »
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2013, 09:53:40 AM »
Here is a clarification by way of an email  on the Flynn Invitational and news on the Flynn Cup from a former member of GCA:

To clarify, the Flynn Invitational was started 10 years ago by members of Glen View club in Golf, IL.  They approached Philmont  about participating in the Flynn Cup but were rebuffed as were other clubs outside the Philadelphia area.  Philmont was never invited to the Flynn Invitational.  The participants include (West to East):  Cherry Hills , Glen View, The Country Club - Pepper Pike,  Lancaster, Lehigh, Rolling Green, Merion, Philadelphia Country, Cascades, CC Virginia, Kittanssett and The Country Club - Brookline.   Interestingly, shortly after CC VA hosted the event, Craig Disher discovered that Flynn did not design the James River Course there.  Flynn drew plans for 36 holes, but we could never match the drawings with any of the holes in a way that would allow a contiguous routing.  We keep them in the Flynn Invitational because they're gentlemen and at least there are Flynn plans for their course.  Perhaps Philmont will one day accept a lesser role by Flynn (if one existed at all) and eventually appreciate the significance of Willie Park, Jr.  

By the way, the Flynn Cup eventually extended an invitation to Bala GC as we proved that was indeed designed by Flynn.  The Flynn Invitational is trying to expand the event to include Springdale (Princeton) and of course Shinnecock Hills.  It is hard to get those guys to travel off the island.  Perhaps next year when the event is hosted by Merion.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 10:22:07 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Bill Shotzbarger

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2013, 05:49:27 PM »
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Joe Bausch

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2013, 07:03:55 PM »
I had a wonderful time at my lunch and visit with the superintendent, club president, and Andy Karff about 4 years ago.  They could not have been more hospitable as we talked about the early history of the club, in particular the inception, building, and opening of the North course.

As I was leaving the club prez said to Andy as I was standing right there "what are we going to do?".   After maybe 2 seconds of awkward silence, I quipped "why don't you start up a Park Cup?".   I cracked a smile as the sarcasm didn't appear to be detected.

Hello lead balloon.

I have little doubt Flynn helped them with the grow-in.  The North course was carved out of a forest and the formal opening was delayed for a long time because of difficulty growing grass.  And Flynn was nearby and an expert hence he probably was there, IMHO.
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@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2013, 09:26:15 PM »
Interesting to note that the club's new website mentions Park and Flynn but doesn't mention as to which course:

http://www.philmontcc.org/Club-History-156.html

http://www.philmontcc.org/Golf-84.html

I think they, whomever they may be now as AK and the President whom Joe met are no longer members, believe Park did South. I think it's clear that Reid did South with later work from Wilson and the Gordons.

Joe,

Flynn may well have been involved in North as a grass expert but Ford's article was rather comprehensive without any mention of Gordon, let alone Flynn.
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2013, 12:07:24 PM »
Philmont is now accepting outside play through boxgroove.com as referenced in the latest newsletter.
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mark McKeever

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2013, 02:13:53 PM »
Quote from: Joe Bausch on April 21, 2013, 07:03:55 PM


As I was leaving the club prez said to Andy as I was standing right there "what are we going to do?".   After maybe 2 seconds of awkward silence, I quipped "why don't you start up a Park Cup?".   I cracked a smile as the sarcasm didn't appear to be detected.

Hello lead balloon.




I just lost my sip of water at my desk.

Mark
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Joe Bausch

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2013, 02:15:30 PM »
Quote from: Steve_ Shaffer on April 25, 2013, 12:07:24 PM
Philmont is now accepting outside play through boxgroove.com as referenced in the latest newsletter.

150 bucks.  I'm hoping that is for the North course.

Edit:  there is also a ~20 buck service charge for each booking at Boxgroove unless you 'upgrade' your membership.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 02:56:27 PM by Joe Bausch »
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The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Bill Shotzbarger

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2013, 04:34:20 PM »
Is it just me or does #1 North scream Flynn?

It's a reverse cant dogleg, to a simple green with a few simple bunkers on each side. Aren't these all Flynn staples? With that said, I think this is the only hole on the North that actually looks like it was designed by Flynn.



Approach shot view:



From just over the green:



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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2013, 05:13:49 PM »
Many members and former members have used the "looks like a Flynn" concept on me. My response has been " looks like a Park. See Woodway in Connecticut."

http://www.woodway.org/guest-welcome

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JI3E7K-VK

See the pics here of Woodway.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,24292.0.html  See the pics here of Woodway.
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Bill Shotzbarger

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Re: Philmont cc
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2013, 06:45:00 PM »
Steve,

I am only talking about this first hole. I honestly don't think the other 17 holes "look like a Flynn". But this one clearly does.

Flynn's reverse camber doglegs can be seen at Rolling Green, Mannies and a few holes at HVCC. I see Park made one at Woodway. So I guess it looks like both.

But analyzing this further, I think the 1st green looks way more like Flynn than Park. #3 North is a definitely a Park green to me. But #1 doesn't look like #3 at all.

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