News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Fred Findlay
« on: July 25, 2003, 08:04:14 AM »
About 10 days ago, in the midst of a long road trip, I played at the Wytheville C.C. in southwestern Virginia.  The course dates back to 1930 (at least nine holes, with 9 added later), and was designed by a man named Fred Findlay.  I had not heard the name before, but subsequently read an article about him in a back issue of a publication called the "Virginia Golf Guide", published by the VA Tourism Board yearly.  This info came from the 2001 edition.

Fred Findlay designed at least 36 courses in VA, and over 100 worldwide.  He was born in Scotland in 1873, and emigrated to the US from Australia after a military career.  His brother Alex preceded him to the US, playing a series of exhibitions with Harry Vardon.  (According to the article, Alex, also a course designer, "unsuccessfully" attempted to lay out a 6 hole course at the Vatican.  It didn't explain why the attempt was unsuccessful!)

Fred Findlay died at the age of 93 in 1966.  He is credited with the following notable courses in VA:

     CC of VA River Course in Richmond (Findlay served as the
      greenskeeper and Superintendant here from 1935-45)

     Farmington CC in Charlottesville

     Keswick CC (I'm not sure where this course is)

     Boonsboro CC in Lynchburg

     Bide-A-Wee CC in Portsmouth

I was surprised to find someone with such a large body of work to be completely unfamiliar to me, and I wondered if anyone had further knowledge of this gentleman and his work.  
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

TEPaul

Re:Fred Findlay
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2003, 09:14:25 AM »
The Findlays, at least Alex, like Tom Bendelow, were part of that sort of "Johnny Appleseed" group very early in America who were thought to lay them out fast and move on down the road. Yardley G.C. in Yardley Pa I believe is a Fred Findlay and Tavistock in NJ which Forse & Co is about to restore is an Alex Findlay. I've always thought the 14 hole "throwback in time" course Tarratine Club of Dark Harbor in Islesboro Maine was an Alex Findlay.

Alex Findlay was here in America super early, though, trying to popularize the game in this country. I wonder if C.B Macdonald knew much about him because Findlay appeared to be here during C.B's "dark years".

But Findlay may have been the true "evangelist of golf" in the States in the manner of trying to popularize golf generally.

The Vatican course and why it was unsuccessful is an interesting story though. Findlay got to the Vatican with a couple of balls and a couple of clubs, got the Pope outside on a very warm Roman summer day, teed a ball up for the Pope on a mound of sand and told the Pope to go at it hard and knock that f...ing pill right over the top of St Peters. The Pope went after that drive like Jason Zubak, got the top of the grip caught in his robes and ripped one of his balls clean off!

That's a little known but probably extremely significant fact in the history and evolution of golf and architecture because if that hadn't happened the Vatican course would've gotten built by Findlay, the Pope would've gotten hooked on golf and architecture and Catholics all over the world would've been given another simple choice; Either play golf or go straight to Hell!!

Oh, I forgot one other little bit of historic trivia that would've come to pass if the Pope hadn't ripped his ball off with that fateful swing. You know how those Scottish Kings tried to ban golf on Sundays and other days because the Scottish folks were playing too much golf and letting their archery practice slide? OK, if you remember that, and again, the Pope hadn't ripped his ball off, and that Vatican course got built and the Pope inevitably got hooked on golf he would've declared war on Scotland and on those kings for a stupid unGodly ban like that and today there'd be many more courses in Scotland like TOC!

There's a lot of luck and a lot of fate in golf and its architecture but it's really amazing what one swing and one testacle can do to the evolution of it all, isn't it?  

« Last Edit: July 25, 2003, 09:24:08 AM by TEPaul »

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fred Findlay
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2003, 09:34:30 AM »
TEPaul
You are not a well man!

A testicle, a testicle, my kingdom for a testicle...

I see this attempt at a thread deteriorating badly from this point on.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Martin Del Vecchio

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fred Findlay
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2003, 09:35:31 AM »
Alex Findlay is credited with the first design at Bass Rocks in Gloucester, MA, where I am a member.  From the club history:

----
The first six-hole course was laid out by Alex Findlay, a Scottish golfer who worked as a salesman for a sporting goods company. This job entailed the planning of golf courses to increase the sales of golf equipment.

The original course was known as the Intervale Links. Subsequently Madison Mott Cannon, Gloucester's City Engineer, designed a new nine-hole course. At a dedication of the new nine-hole course in June of 1904, a flag was raised proclaiming it to be the Bass Rocks Golf Links.
----

Imagine a modern-day architect having a course redeisgned by a City Engineer?

The Keswick Club is just outside of Charlottesville, VA, part of an ultra-ritzy resort.  I played there last year; it's OK, but not great.  The course was redesigned by Arnold Palmer at some point, and is a par 71 that measures about 6300 yards.



Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fred Findlay
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2003, 10:07:33 AM »

I don't know anything about Fred but Alex Findlay was responsible for the first golf course in the state of Oklahoma, a nine holer in Guthrie circa 1901 that still exists.




TEPaul

Re:Fred Findlay
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2003, 10:13:50 AM »
A.G. Crockett:

Forget the tyop or the significance of the spelling of the Pope's ball. Try convincing that Pope of the importance of the spelling of testacle or testicle. The poor man ripped one of his balls clean off--that's all that matters. And look what it did to the future of golf, not to mention the future of Catholicism! Do your really think all these priests would've molested all those young boys if they had to be out on the golf course all the time? Get things in perspective, would you please?

And what do you mean this thread will go downhill from here? Don't you people know how to be serious?

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fred Findlay
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2003, 11:18:10 AM »
Tom

Ask Wayne Morrison to give you the update on Fred Findlay which was found at the Historical Society of Pennsylvania.  He wrote some very interesting articles for the newspaper in his day.

wsmorrison

Re:Fred Findlay
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2003, 11:34:44 AM »
Bill,
Wasn't it Alex Findlay that wrote the article we found at the Historical Society?  If we can begin to find corroborating evidence that supports that article, WOW!  I did tell Tommy about the article.  Can't wait to meet him over at the Society to show him that treasure trove of materials.  Maybe we'll have lunch at Ludwig's as well....good food.  BTW, have you gotten a hold of anyone in the Warren family?  Just a gentle reminder, my friend.  Looking forward to seeing you when you get back to PA.  Hope to visit you at SP before then.  Call you soon.
Regards,
Wayne

ForkaB

Re:Fred Findlay
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2003, 11:37:07 AM »
Tom

I always thought that Finlay/Vatican rift was over the issue of cross bunkering.  Of course, the fact that Alex was asked to lay out 6 holes on the head of a pin, probably didn't help the working relationship either.......

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fred Findlay
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2003, 11:44:27 AM »
(According to the article, Alex, also a course designer, "unsuccessfully" attempted to lay out a 6 hole course at the Vatican.  It didn't explain why the attempt was unsuccessful!)

Maybe because a round of 18 holes would have to be a 6,6,6???
Next Conspiracy Theory please.......

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

TEPaul

Re:Fred Findlay
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2003, 12:37:04 PM »
"I always thought that Finlay/Vatican rift was over the issue of cross bunkering.  Of course, the fact that Alex was asked to lay out 6 holes on the head of a pin, probably didn't help the working relationship either......."

Look Rich, would you stop always being such a "doubting Richard" and contrarian and just take my word on this--it's impeccably researched and documented. The unsuccessful Vatican course by Findlay had nothing to do with cross bunkering, heads of pins, angels, the Devil and 666 or anything of the kind.

It had to do solely with the fact that Findlay teed a ball up for the Pope, handed him a driver, the Pope thought he should swing like Jason Zubak and he got the end of the grip caught in his papal robes and he ripped one of his balls (testicles or testacles, take your pick) clean off.

But on the subject of golf courses, architecture and the Vatican I will tell you a story that really is true. I saw Pete Dye about this time a year, or maybe it was two years ago and among other things I asked him how his son old P.B. was coming along.

Pete said, laughing, "you never know what might happen next in architecture, P.B. (never known to be the most God fearing or clean living guy around) got the job to do a course right next to the Vatican--go figure."

But he also said that the start of the project got slowed up so while P.B waited for the Roman bureaucracy, the Vatican, the Pope or perhaps God to give him the green light to get started, and never one to sit around and do nothing, P.B. decided to get on a dozer (the Dyes love to operate dozers) and build himself a great driving range and practice area so he could at least hit balls while he waited for somebody on high to pull the trigger on his project!

I'm not sure what's happened with the project but don't worry about history repeating itself like with Findlay and that Pope he was dealing with (known to his close friends as Fredrico the Alto, btw) who ripped one of his balls clean off trying to swing like Jason Zubak. That's not likely to happen again.

Again, no one, not even Pete Dye can figure out how his son P.B got this project. If one were to guess he probably heard this Pope once was a great skier and he told this Pope he could build him a golf course that either looked like or doubled as a ski slope. But history won't repeat itself--this Pope could not possibley rip one of his balls clean off trying to swing like Jason Zubak. I saw this pope a couple of years ago and it was everything he could do to hold onto his papal staff. So golf's future is proably fairly safe from the Vatican and all Catholics will not be forced to play golf in the future to have a chance to get into Heaven.  

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fred Findlay
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2003, 01:01:15 PM »
(According to the article, Alex, also a course designer, "unsuccessfully" attempted to lay out a 6 hole course at the Vatican.  It didn't explain why the attempt was unsuccessful!)

Maybe because a round of 18 holes would have to be a 6,6,6???
Next Conspiracy Theory please.......

FBD.

Totally off topic - Did you see that the USA is spending our tax dollars to renumber US666 to US491 in UT and AZ? ???