Is Augusta National good for the game?

[Tim_Weiman]

Paul,

Just to be clear and fair, I don't think the history is a minor footnote.

[Patrick_Mucci]

What I really have a problem with though is the ongoing hypocrisy of a bunch of barely closet racists that spent one week of the year swooping to a certain black guy.

Paul,

Are you calling Sandy Weill a "closet racist" ?

Being a supposed gentleman and being morally repulsive are not mutually exclusive.

What do you mean by a "supposed gentleman" ?

Do you personally know members of ANGC ?

What qualifies you to ascertain their character and integrity ?

[Paul Gray]

What I really have a problem with though is the ongoing hypocrisy of a bunch of barely closet racists that spent one week of the year swooping to a certain black guy.

Paul,

Are you calling Sandy Weill a "closet racist" ?

Being a supposed gentleman and being morally repulsive are not mutually exclusive.

What do you mean by a "supposed gentleman" ?

Do you personally know members of ANGC ?

What qualifies you to ascertain their character and integrity ?

I struggle to believe you're even attempting to drive me down this route. Hold on, no I don't. To assert that you need to know each and every individual associated with Augusta to have any knowledge of the history of the club and its attitude to persons of colour is moronic. 

And I'm not going to waste my time addressing the exceptions which prove the rule argument. Or did you want to, on the strength of that approach, now wish to forward an argument that the eventual inclusion of a couple of women has made Augusta a strong hold for  women's equality?

As ever Pat, you're straight out of your box when anyone challenges your very own little status quo. Hell, you've even come close to appearing personally slighted by any mere suggestion that some of the greats of the past might have played away from home. If and when you occasionally peep past those blinkers, does it all look a bit big and scary out here in the real world? You make the dying British class system look like part of the Enlightenment Movement. Credit where credit is due though, only you can make a moderate liberal sound like a radical revolutionary. 

And Jeff, a lack of demand at one club is very different to a lack of invitations at another. And for the record, I have played golf with precisely one black person in the last month.

[Jud_T]

Paul,

Do you belong to a private club?  If so, what is the racial, religious and sexual breakdown of the club's membership?  Can you name 5 private clubs in the states where more than 10% of the membership is made up of African Americans and/or Women?

[Patrick_Mucci]

What I really have a problem with though is the ongoing hypocrisy of a bunch of barely closet racists that spent one week of the year swooping to a certain black guy.

Paul,

Are you calling Sandy Weill a "closet racist" ?

Being a supposed gentleman and being morally repulsive are not mutually exclusive.

What do you mean by a "supposed gentleman" ?

Do you personally know members of ANGC ?

What qualifies you to ascertain their character and integrity ?

I struggle to believe you're even attempting to drive me down this route. Hold on, no I don't. To assert that you need to know each and every individual associated with Augusta to have any knowledge of the history of the club and its attitude to persons of colour is moronic. 

And I'm not going to waste my time addressing the exceptions which prove the rule argument. Or did you want to, on the strength of that approach, now wish to forward an argument that the eventual inclusion of a couple of women has made Augusta a strong hold for  women's equality?

As ever Pat, you're straight out of your box when anyone challenges your very own little status quo. Hell, you've even come close to appearing personally slighted by any mere suggestion that some of the greats of the past might have played away from home. If and when you occasionally peep past those blinkers, does it all look a bit big and scary out here in the real world? You make the dying British class system look like part of the Enlightenment Movement. Credit where credit is due though, only you can make a moderate liberal sound like a radical revolutionary. 

Paul,

That's a long excuse to duck some simple and direct questions raised by statements you made.

Augusta, Georgia is in the heart of the South.
Perhaps you need to review history in order to gain some cultural context

Would you name me just ten (10) courses that are "strongholds for women's equality" ?

Try not to duck questions that are based on statements you make.
When you refuse to answer inquiries questioning statements you make, it erodes whatever credibility you have

And Jeff, a lack of demand at one club is very different to a lack of invitations at another. And for the record, I have played golf with precisely one black person in the last month.

[jeffwarne]

Paul,
Test passed, inquisition over.
I wasn't suggesting you wouldn't, just that the demand might not really be there.

Of course there would be demand at Augusta, but they discriminate against everybody.

I do find it ironic that when ANGC does something most people think is good for the game(drive, pitch, putt) that it could be perceived as anything but good.
That when they present their stadium in impeccable condition, it could be perceived as anything but good. (if a small town exceeds their budget trying to match the splendor of an impeccable major league baseball stadium is that Yankee or Red Sox syndrome?)
Augusta national Golf Club may not have the best record on minority equaility, but I would counter that they were at their worst merely reflective of the enviroment, region, and yes time they were  in.(perhaps the time thing could've been accelerated but again that goes back to demand and yes attitudes )

Ironically,when we started our club, our first member was going to be an African American. He was a great guy, a blast to play with, a former caddie at Winged Foot,very successful, and a member at nearby Atlantic where I had worked before.
I played golf with him after the Atlantic Member-Guest at our then not open yet course during his last round on September 9th, 2011.
The East End of Long Island Caddie Team Championship is now named for him, and is a huge event.
Funny though, I never thought of him as an "African American", just a great guy to play golf with, and an ideal member candidate.

That said, we have never had another African American express interest.

Currently, I would say there is at least as much dicrimination practiced against hispanics in our country as there has been against African Americans in the past 30 years. I'm not sure which scapegoat I should go after for this.

[Paul Gray]

Paul,

Do you belong to a private club?  If so, what is the racial, religious and sexual breakdown of the club's membership?  Can you name 5 private clubs in the states where more than 10% of the membership is made up of African Americans and/or Women?

I refer you to my response to Jeff....

And Jeff, a lack of demand at one club is very different to a lack of invitations at another. And for the record, I have played golf with precisely one black person in the last month.

[Jud_T]

Paul,

I agree that the prior restrictions based on race and sex were outdated.  But to insinuate that today a club that has a couple token women, african american, and for that matter jewish, members is still a bastion of bigotry when in fact it now mirrors the member rosters of most private clubs across the nation is nothing but projection on your part.

[Paul Gray]

Pat,

I'm at a complete loss to understand which part of my answer you felt was an attempt at tactical avoidance. Perhaps you're trying to second guess my thinknig based upon your own standard approach.

If you can tell me why any one individual need personally know another individual or set of individuals to form an opinion then I'm all ears. Any such argument would basically render the concept of democracy disfunctional, since very few of us ever meet those we elect, but go for your life if you want to try to win me over on this one. 

[Paul Gray]

Paul,

I agree that the prior restrictions based on race and sex were outdated.  But to insinuate that today a club that has a couple token women, african american, and for that matter jewish, members is still a bastion of bigotry when in fact it now mirrors the member rosters of most private clubs across the nation is nothing but projection on your part.

Jud,

Let's not cloud the issue with talk of other clubs. We are talking about one club here and one club only. Whether or not the membership at Augusta mirrors other clubs is of no relevance.

However, I'm very happy to listen and would be even more delighted is anyone here could persuade me that the undercurrent at Augusta has fundamentally changed. Genuinely, nothing would make me happier than to believe that we really have come that far. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I'm at a complete loss to understand which part of my answer you felt was an attempt at tactical avoidance.

Which part ?  Then entire reply !

Perhaps you're trying to second guess my thinknig based upon your own standard approach.

Not at all.

If you can tell me why any one individual need personally know another individual or set of individuals to form an opinion then I'm all ears.

When you render an opinion on the sum of the parts, shouldn't you have in depth knowledge regarding each of the parts ?

I asked you, "Is Sandy Weill a closet racist ?"  It's a simple question, why did you avoid answering it ?

Any such argument would basically render the concept of democracy disfunctional, since very few of us ever meet those we elect, but go for your life if you want to try to win me over on this one. 

I'm not trying to win you over.
I'm trying to show that you don't know what you're talking about, but, you're doing a good job of that on your own.

[Paul Gray]

Let's assume Sandy Weill isn't racist. Let's assume the black members aren't racist. What does that prove about the club?

I know it annoys you when people don't feel obliged to explain things to you infinitum, but your failure to make certain basic cognitive connections is no one's problem but your own.

So, unless you're actually going to try to prove me wrong, bring a smile to my face and persuade me that the aforementioned undercurrent at Augusta has changed, I rather feel you're wasting your time bothering to type anything (and, yes, that is just my opinion), unless of course you want to sink into the usual name calling.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Let's assume Sandy Weill isn't racist. Let's assume the black members aren't racist. What does that prove about the club?

How about Paul Bridston, Fred Ridley and Billy Payne ?

I know it annoys you when people don't feel obliged to explain things to you infinitum, but your failure to make certain basic cognitive connections is no one's problem but your own.

I've made the connections, and the failure is on your part.
You've made a declaration about the club and I'm challenging you on it and you don't like it because you have no specific, concrete evidence to support your position.

So, unless you're actually going to try to prove me wrong, bring a smile to my face and persuade me that the aforementioned undercurrent at Augusta has changed, I rather feel you're wasting your time bothering to type anything (and, yes, that is just my opinion), unless of course you want to sink into the usual name calling.   

Well, I am going to prove you wrong, even if I have to go through every member, so that you can identify who you claim the racist members are.

So, let's continue with Ridley, Bridston and Payne, are they racists ?

[Jason Thurman]

Paul, can you name the members that you think are "barely closet racists"?

Your originally controversial post didn't refer to the club's history. It referred to "a bunch of barely closet racists" playing nice with Tiger Woods. It was set in the present tense and presumably directed at members of the club. If you really meant to refer to the club's history rather than its present membership, then that's fair enough I guess. I just don't know what would seem hypocritical about watching the club embrace Tiger (the same way the embrace any other champion) if that's the case.

I have a personal stake in racist undercurrents in our game. Augusta National's history in that matter isn't exemplary for me, but it's truthfully not all that offensive either. 1990 was a lot sooner than many other clubs in the country, and for an invitation-only club with a fairly small membership, I don't find it particularly regressive. If we're speaking in the present-tense, there are plenty of clubs more worthy of disdain in this regard.

[Paul Gray]

Let's assume Sandy Weill isn't racist. Let's assume the black members aren't racist. What does that prove about the club?

How about Paul Bridston, Fred Ridley and Billy Payne ?

I know it annoys you when people don't feel obliged to explain things to you infinitum, but your failure to make certain basic cognitive connections is no one's problem but your own.

I've made the connections, and the failure is on your part.
You've made a declaration about the club and I'm challenging you on it and you don't like it because you have no specific, concrete evidence to support your position.

So, unless you're actually going to try to prove me wrong, bring a smile to my face and persuade me that the aforementioned undercurrent at Augusta has changed, I rather feel you're wasting your time bothering to type anything (and, yes, that is just my opinion), unless of course you want to sink into the usual name calling.   

Well, I am going to prove you wrong, even if I have to go through every member, so that you can identify who you claim the racist members are.

So, let's continue with Ridley, Bridston and Payne, are they racists ?

Again Pat, I don't know them individually. I'll read your report in full when compiled for the 300 or so members.

Jason, given that you're not Pat, I'm far more likely to listen to what you have to say. Ignoring other clubs, are you genuinely of the opinion that Augusta is no longer a racist establishment? If my original comment was only accurate in relation to the past then I am both pleased and happy to admit my error.

[Tim_Weiman]

Paul,

I think we can all agree that Augusta is located in a part of the country associated with racism and that the club specifically had a history of discrimination based on race.

From there the discussion becomes more difficult, IMO.

I don't know all 300 Augusta members. I doubt anyone here does. My exposure to Augusta members is limited to two individuals, both CEOs of well known Fortune 500 companies. One was a family friend. One was CEO of a company I did lots of business with and I was frequently the guest of this company.

Neither gentleman were racist as best as I could tell. Neither struck me as deserving of being painted with a broad brush. So, that is where I get uncomfortable describing the members as "closet racists". Does this mean all members are? Some members are? And, how do we determine if someone falls into this category? I am a citizen of the United States, a country where slavery was once legal? Does this make me racist? Does this make you racist?

Then, too, is celebrating Tiger Woods necessarily hypocritical? Isn't social change often evolutionary? Isn't the reception Tiger gets significantly better than a Charlie Sifford? Isn't that real progress?

[Garland Bayley]

I recall reading a couple of years ago that all caddies at ANGC were black. Is that still true?

[Jason Thurman]

Jason, given that you're not Pat, I'm far more likely to listen to what you have to say. Ignoring other clubs, are you genuinely of the opinion that Augusta is no longer a racist establishment? If my original comment was only accurate in relation to the past then I am both pleased and happy to admit my error.

While the club still lacks diversity in comparison with the population of the nation, I’m inclined to think its diversity isn’t far from matching the midline between the demographics of the game of golf and the demographics of the very wealthy and influential, which is essentially who the club serves. I tend to think their discrimination is socioeconomic and that any perceived lack of racial diversity is a function of their socioeconomic standards. Put more simply, I think they’re looking for wealthy, influential, and well-respected members and it just happens that our society produces a lot more white prospects than minority prospects for them, particularly with regards to the first two qualifiers.

With a national membership, it’s hard to even see Augusta National as a reflection of its own geographic culture. I grew up in the Upland South in Kentucky, where any native wearing a Confederate Flag is a unique kind of moron that tends to be stubborn, poorly educated in his own state’s history, and friendlier than his dress might suggest. Kentucky is to the South what Pine Needles is to Pinehurst No. 2: there are obvious similarities, but it’s definitely a bit watered-down. I love southern culture, southern hospitality, southern sensibilities, southern scenery, and even southern weather. The South has taken a lot of steps forward in racial relations even in my fairly short lifetime, and we love warm weather, but there are still a handful of idiot yahoos that my wife and I would rather not deal with and I still have a hard time imagining my mixed race family moving even to my hometown, let alone Augusta.

The club’s close alignment with its southern surroundings makes it easy to forget that its membership includes a wide range of people from all over the country. It’s unfair to point to Augusta National as a reflection of Augusta, GA, and it’s unfair in 2013 to continue holding Augusta, GA and the rest of the Dirty South as a reflection of Jim Crow and slavery. There are the aforementioned yahoos still lurking in the South, but they’ve become vastly the exception and not the rule. Meanwhile, there’s also a sincerity to race relations in the South that’s refreshing. When I lived in Madison, WI, no one ever shouted racial epithets at my wife or, by proxy, me. But when we’re in Tennessee, we aren’t seated at the back corner table of the restaurant 80% of the time we go out to eat like we were in Madison. Latent and subconscious racism is all over this country. The South is slowly getting past its racial history, and in the meantime, it’s at least refreshing to know that its horrific past has eliminated all the secrets and forced decorum between black and white. The race conversation in the South is more open, less politically correct, and less prone to naïve platitudes. I’m personally far more offended by someone having the gall to make a PG-13 rated Jackie Robinson biopic than I am by Augusta’s current practices.

I can’t really look at Augusta independent of other clubs because the real problem is more systematic to the game of golf and our society at large. For all the noise about Tiger “growing the game,” minorities still comprise a small population of the golfing public.  Beyond that, minorities also still comprise a small population of the highest ranks in Fortune 500 companies and 1%-ers overall. I think that’s a reflection of big picture, systemic issues within our society and, less importantly, our game. As Augusta National has always been more a trophy for status attained than a christener of status in its own right, its membership will always be one-dimensional until our country can address the deep disparities that stratify success across demographics.

[Jud_T]

Being a bigot isn't a very promising trait for someone wanting to become a Fortune 500 CEO these days.  Working your butt off 24/7 and surrounding yourself with the best possible people, regardless of background, is.  Frankly, I'm betting that many of the members at Augusta were uncomfortable with the no-female policy and it was in fact the membership that pushed for inclusion of women behind closed doors.  Perhaps you should be blogging about diversity quotas in college acceptances, school teacher tenure and pension issues and inner city job opportunities instead of private golf clubs that you have little to no first hand knowledge about. 

[Garland Bayley]

How many caddies at the club have become Evans scholars?

[Jason Thurman]

Frankly, I'm betting that many of the members at Augusta were uncomfortable with the no-female policy and it was in fact the membership that pushed for inclusion of women behind closed doors.

I'm sure you're right about that. The club obviously makes changes at the behest of its membership and board and no one else. I actually respect them more for admitting the two women members last year, at the club's discretion, rather than in 2003 at Martha Burke's demand.

Augusta National does what Augusta National's members and board see fit. They're not afraid of controversy, and when people outside the club asked sponsors to abandon The Masters, Augusta National stopped accepting commercial sponsors and paid to televise the tournament commercial free. With that in mind, it's hard for me to believe that there's much closet racism behind the gates. The club's members are members because they're wanted by the club, not because it's politically correct to have them.

[Garland Bayley]

Here's the deal. If the Augusta membership is not inspiring their caddies to become business leaders like we hear so often about caddies at other clubs, then there is insidious racism there of the worst kind.

[Tim_Cronin]

To answer the original question: Yes.

[Paul Gray]

Jason, Jud and Tim,

Your reasoned and rational arguments, particularly the argument that any prejudice is predominantly socioeconomic rather than racial in nature, have led me to conclude that my initial statement, by and large, belongs in the past. I'm therefore very pleased to concede to your greater knowledge but wonder what thoughts you gents might have on what I believe on face value to be a very salient point made by GJ in his last post.   

Thank you for the education. 

 

 

[Tim_Weiman]

Paul,

I have no idea how many caddies at Augusta are white or black, young or old, male or female. To be honest, I have always been discriminatory when it comes to interacting with caddies. If the caddy is an older person , I judge the person to be a professional caddy and try to enjoy the golfer-caddy relationship. The best experience I ever had with a "professional caddy" was at Royal Troon with someone who had caddied in The Open and had caddied for Colin Montgomery many times in his youth. The entire focus was on the game, my round, how to play each hole and shot. It was simply wonderful.

With young people my interaction is less focused on my game and more on trying to make them feel comfortable. I am far more likely to ask about school and what they would like to do long term. I am far more likely to give advice and offer to help in any way I can. I had that experience many times when I was still living in Cleveland playing at Sand Ridge.

If I were a member at Augusta, I would probably approach things the same way. Race wouldn't matter, but age and professional status probably would. A long term Augusta caddy would be a joy to spend time with and pick his brain about the golf course, but if it was a young kid, my focus would undoubtedly be different.

So, are there any Evans Scholar winners at Augusta? I have no idea, but I tend to think age might be as big, if not a bigger factor than race.

Maybe someone more familiar with the club than I am can comment..