Is Augusta National good for the game?

[Alex Miller]

Once upon a time I would have definitely said 'yes', but now I'm probably leaning the other way. Sorry ANGC fans but that's just how I see it these days.

All the best.

Any reasons why?

[Garland Bayley]

... but having a 14 year old in the field at a major is something I would expect at an LPGA event, not at one of the world's most prestigious tournaments.
...

Heck, they have 13 year olds almost winning their majors!

[Garland Bayley]

The unfortunate thing is the ridiculous pedestal this course is on has a negative effect on the game. Just look what they did to Pinehurst #2 before Bill and Ben put it back the way it should be. If we could get Pinehurst #2 raised up to equal status, then sand based inland courses wouldn't be trying to do wall to wall green.

[Garland Bayley]

I don't have a clue if ANGC is good or bad for golf or how that can possibly be measured.  I will say that if archies actually built courses in the ANGC mould then I would have no hesitation in saying it was good for the game.

Ciao

Sean,

A. Vernon Macan used Augusta National as his reference point in explaining his course building concepts to potential clients. In particular he continually pointed out how his philosophy agreed with Alister's. So I say my two favorite architects are Mac and Mac. Unfortunately I haven't played anything by Alister, but I have by Arthur.

[Ted Sturges]

I'm not talking about the Masters.  I think we can all agree that it is one of the great tournaments in the world.  I am speaking about their role in the game of golf.  Some of their initiatives, and recent decisions, make me wonder if the club is really good for the sport.  The issues I have issue with or question the power of Augusta are below.  Curious to know where others stand.

1. Having such a big role in the anchoring debate.  Should Billy Payne and the powers at be at ANGC really have that much power over a potentially huge decision which could affect the landscape of golf? I see nothing wrong with them voicing their opinion on this and other golf issues.  They have a pulpit and have the right to use it.

2. I realize it's an invitational, but having players of questionable credentials at the professional or even amateur level in the field over more credible players.  Maybe I'm the one that's not looking big picture, but having a 14 year old in the field at a major is something I would expect at an LPGA event, not at one of the world's most prestigious tournaments.  I for one think their commitment to honoring amateur golf is fantastic.  Mr. Jones was a lifelong amateur.  This is part of the heritage of the club.  I love it.

3. The Chip, Putt, and Drive contest.  While a nice and cute thought, it seems to be overly cheesy to me.  It reeks of "look at us, we are trying to grow the game."  How much does ANGC really care about junior golf?  Once again, maybe I'm being overly cynical.  It just seems to be a publicity stunt to improve their image, especially in the wake of the female member controversy which they are just getting over. It's a fun event for everyone involved.  I think you are overthinking this one.

4. I know it's been discussed over and over on here, but the "Augusta syndrome" of lush conditions that is demanded among many golfers across the country.  Most of us here realize that a little brown on a golf course isn't a big deal, and firm and fast is more interesting than the overwatered alternative.  I can't help but think that if ANGC embraced the concept, that golf course operators would follow suit.  I think this is one area were ANGC is open for criticism.  Because the world watches this golf tournament every year with great anticipation, golfers everywhere desire lush and green conditions.  I have no doubt that the cost of golf in the US is higher today because of the Masters Tournament. Just like it takes too damn long to play a round of golf in this country is a biproduct of the success of Mr. Nicklaus.  If Chi Chi could have putted well, Jack wouldn't have won all those majors and we'd be playing in 3 hours, emulating the fast paced style of Chi Chi instead of the survey the putt from every angle deliberate sytle of Mr. Nicklaus.

5. The overall stuffiness of the Masters.  Nothing says "golf is a rich, white person's sport" more than watching the tournament.  I admit, I am looking forward to Thursday.  It is the start of the four of the best days of the year for any golf fan.  But I feel like ANGC takes it a bit too far.  Everything is just a little over the top, from the broadcasters on CBS to the rules which the club has for the players and fans. It is what it is.  I'll still plan to watch thank you very much.

Once again, just wanted to get some other thoughts from you guys.  Just of the opinion that Augusta National might not be as good for the game as the fawning media may think (or are forced to say, especially in the case of CBS.)

TS

[Thomas Dai]

Alex,

Why? Well, limited opening/seasonal playability/lack of playing access. Artificiality, sub-air, overly green, too perfect, tree moving, coloured divot mix, dye in ponds, permanent TV towers, sensitivity to criticism - to much grovelling from too many - 'patrons' ha,ha, they're 'fans/spectators' and god forbid anyone mention bikini wax! Money - buying up adjacent land for big money and then parking cars there for one week a year. Sorry to those folks who love ANGC/The Masters, but IMO where once there was a invitational golf tournament that for years and years I looked forward to viewing there's now an annual circus, and one that's getting bigger by the year.

Plus as Jud T said earlier, there's "The issue...with all the wanna-be courses, memberships and committees who try in vain to keep up with the Joneses (!) by lengthening and greening their courses till the cows come home.....Envy does indeed run green." This aspect has, IMO, had a huge impact on the game over the last three or so decades, and unfortunately it's been a negative impact.

All the best.

[jim_lewis]

Sometimes I wonder where Ran finds some of the folks on this discussion group.

[jeffwarne]

A thread like this comes up every year.
You're wrong on all 5 counts.
nuff said

[Keith Doleshel]

Jeff,
I have a hard time with you calling this a BS thread.  You might not like what I said, but it makes for an interesting discussion.  Apparently there aren't many on here who agree with me, and that's fine.  I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.  Forums like this, and getting other people's opinions, are the reason I visit this site almost everyday.  Regardless of what I think, I'm still going to tune in, and am looking forward to the tournament.

[jeffwarne]

perhaps the word BS needs editing.
You will watch the event, as will millions.
That's good for the game.
Enjoy

[Keith Doleshel]

Watching the event is good for the game.  That's something we can both agree on.    Here's hoping for a Sunday showdown (Tiger and Phil, finally, would be awesome) but it really doesn't matter who is in contention.  It will be compelling no matter the names.

[Garland Bayley]

Sometimes I wonder where Ran finds some of the folks on this discussion group.

Somebody has to make up for the knuckleheads.

[Paul Gray]

Whilst it may be the fault of individual clubs for suffering from Augusta syndrome, to answer the original question, this particular effect is certainly not good for the game. That doesn't mean I apportion any blame to Augusta itself. I just personally dread the annual chorus from club golfers that suddenly moan at the lack of backspin witnessed when hitting a skinny approach with a Top Flite Solid Rock Extreme. 

What I really have a problem with though is the ongoing hypocrisy of a bunch of barely closet racists that spent one week of the year swooping to a certain black guy. Being a supposed gentleman and being morally repulsive are not mutually exclusive.

[Dan Herrmann]

Thomas D - One trip to The Masters, and I think your mind may be changed.

What's wrong with sub-air?  It's designed to make the course play firm and fast and to dry it out after a (fairly) common afternoon thunderstorm.

Those parking lots provide free parking for the patrons.

The term "patron" comes from Bob Jones, and is a term meant to instill mutual  respect.  You don't see any folks wearing a "uniform" they had to buy with their hands up hushing the crowd at the Masters.  The PATRONS really do get it.

I absolutely love the place and can't wait till I have the chance to get back.  Come on 2014 ticket lottery!

[Tim_Weiman]

Dan Herrmann,

I always found the Masters event a much more pleasant and friendly environment than Thomas D and Keith suggest. Indeed, I would suggest if someone hasn't been there, it might be better to reserve comment. You just can't pick that up from television.

FYI, I once had the experience of being introduced to someone and we had a long talk about Augusta and what I call the "golf technology arms race". In the conversation, I was very critical of Augusta for not taking a leadership role and a stance against the out of control distance of the ball.

I very strongly argued Augusta had the clout, could avoid legal challenges and accomplish what the USGA seemed determined to avoid.

It was a very pleasant conversation all in all.

Funny thing. Turns out this person was CEO of a pretty well known Fortune 500 company and he was an Augusta member.

Later, I got teased quite a lot for not realizing who he was, but It made our conversation much nicer. There wasn't anything even remotely "stuffy" about this person. Not even close.

My passion on architecture and the ball issue did earn me an invitation to play the course. Wouldn't you know it, I had a work related scheduling conflict and couldn't make it!

[Dan Herrmann]

Tim,
That's my experience too.  When I was down there, I chatted with several members.  They couldn't have been friendlier or more down to earth.  One common thread was that they were proud of the club.

Fantastic stuff.

[Lou_Duran]

What I really have a problem with though is the ongoing hypocrisy of a bunch of barely closet racists that spent one week of the year swooping to a certain black guy. Being a supposed gentleman and being morally repulsive are not mutually exclusive.

Ditto what Jim Lewis said.  How terrible it must be to hold such beliefs, not to say anything about lacking the control to state them publicly.

ANGC is fantastic for golf.  Compared to the vast majority of golf clubs and memberships, I doubt it has much of anything to apologize for.  I suspect that most everyone here would list it in the top two or three places they would one day wish to play.   

[Paul Gray]

What I really have a problem with though is the ongoing hypocrisy of a bunch of barely closet racists that spent one week of the year swooping to a certain black guy. Being a supposed gentleman and being morally repulsive are not mutually exclusive.

Ditto what Jim Lewis said.  How terrible it must be to hold such beliefs, not to say anything about lacking the control to state them publicly.

And why, pray tell, would one wish to remain quiet about such beliefs? Perhaps you can explain why I'm wrong.

[Garland Bayley]

...
What I really have a problem with though is the ongoing hypocrisy of a bunch of barely closet racists that spent one week of the year swooping to a certain black guy. Being a supposed gentleman and being morally repulsive are not mutually exclusive.

Perhaps you are overgeneralizing a bit. Warren Buffet and Bill Gates are the only two members I know much about. Your statement above in that case is patently false.

[Jason Thurman]

...
What I really have a problem with though is the ongoing hypocrisy of a bunch of barely closet racists that spent one week of the year swooping to a certain black guy. Being a supposed gentleman and being morally repulsive are not mutually exclusive.

Perhaps you are overgeneralizing a bit. Warren Buffet and Bill Gates are the only two members I know much about. Your statement above in that case is patently false.

Wow. I find myself nodding along with Garland for maybe the first time ever.

I'm tired of the "Everything in the South is racist and ignorant" crowd. I suspect that awful new Brad Paisley song will only make things worse. I actually had to explain to a co-worker yesterday that Willie Robertson has a business degree and only one of his father’s 6 siblings failed to graduate college. It's hard for some to acknowledge that a bearded, long-haired family from Louisiana might just be smarter than the rest of us.

If you want to call the club “stuffy” because they won’t let you run on the premises, don’t allow public play, and frown on shouts of “In the hole!” and “You da man!” then that’s your call. It’s also fair to question the club’s acceptance of minorities 40 or 50 years ago. But calling them a bunch of closet racists in 2013 is pretty silly. There are hundreds or even thousands of clubs around the country more worthy of your disdain in that category. Augusta looks downright progressive next to several other GCA favorites.

[Jeff Taylor]

A long time ago, some people got together to build a club/course and a tournament that met the highest standards of the game.
They succeeded.

[Tim_Weiman]

Paul Gray,

Just out curiosity, do you personally know or done business with any Augusta members? In other words, are your comments about racism based on the long club history (where blacks were excluded) or from direct first hand experience with current members?

[Brad Isaacs]

If the questions is

Is The emulation of the conditions of the Augusta National Golf Course at this time of year good for the game?

The answer may be yes as the rest of the world really doesn't have the budget for it.

But AugustaNational is the best stadium in all of sports. Nothing even close.

Brad I

[Paul Gray]

Paul Gray,

Just out curiosity, do you personally know or done business with any Augusta members? In other words, are your comments about racism based on the long club history (where blacks were excluded) or from direct first hand experience with current members?

You mention the history as is it's some minor foot note. The first black member, least we forget, was not even admitted until 1990 and only then under duress (and please tell me you're not going to dispute this). I'm not suggesting for one second that racism is inherent in all members, nor am I suggesting that the place isn't changing. But let's not kid ourselves that Augusta has suddenly become some sort of egalitarian haven. By all means hold whatever opinion you like on the rights or wrongs of that, but let's not confuse what we might like to see with what actually is. 

[jeffwarne]

Paul,
How many black people have you played golf with in the last month?

I'm a member of Palmetto across the river from Augusta and Southampton, (NY).
I've never seen a black golfer at either club in 20 years at one and 15 at another.
I have no idea if there are any black members at either club.
Does that make the members of these clubs and myself racists?

Come to think of it, I didn't see any black skiiers in Quebec at Christmas and in Colorado in February.

I actually have a very funny story Vernon Jordan told me about playing there just after they admitted their first black member.