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David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes?
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2013, 02:34:35 PM »
So now I'm hearing from another source that it was a PH problem.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes? pH problem?
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2013, 03:45:29 PM »
"So now I'm hearing from another source that it was a PH problem."

David O. -

Does this mean that nematodes were not an issue or was the "PH problem" in some way responsible for the nematodes causing the problem?

DT   

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes? pH problem?
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2013, 04:08:03 PM »
"So now I'm hearing from another source that it was a PH problem."

David O. -

Does this mean that nematodes were not an issue or was the "PH problem" in some way responsible for the nematodes causing the problem?

DT   

Dunno. The pro shop guy I talked did say that they had recovered remarkably from the two weeks prior to the tournament, which is a good sign. I sure hope they don't get any worse and that they heal quickly. Stevinson is such a wonderful golf course. One of my favorites in California for sure.

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes? pH problem?
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2013, 08:22:58 PM »
Interesting if it were a pH problem when the crux of Greenway is keeping the pH low with lots of ferrous sulfate to favor the bent. And isn't Stevenson like Greenway headquarters?

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Updated: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes? pH problem?
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2013, 08:53:24 PM »
To anyone in the golf course management business, saying Greenway has some problems due to pH is pretty damn humorous.
They hang their hat on pH.
I'm guessing someone is pulling someone's leg here with the pH comment.

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes? pH problem?
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2013, 11:49:31 PM »
The entire premise of this thread is flawed.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes? pH problem?
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2013, 01:58:29 AM »
The entire premise of this thread is flawed.

Flawed? In what way? I played a tournament there. The course is one of my favorites, but the greens were very, very bad. Something very serious had happened to them. Several players withdrew from the tournament after playing a practice round on Friday they were so bad.

I heard nematodes mentioned by several players who said that they had heard that from others. Then another guy who played the tournament said that he heard that it was a pH problem at Stevinson.

Which part is flawed?

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Updated: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes? pH problem?
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2013, 07:51:56 AM »
The "heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend" part is flawed. Common, but flawed.
What is obvious from this thread is, and I say this respectfully, you have no clue what actually caused the problem. Reporting the poor green condition is fine as that is fact. Speculating the cause based on what some traveling tournament golfers think is a very flawed method of getting to the real reason the greens are bad.

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes? pH problem?
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2013, 12:19:03 PM »
Here is a discussion about Stevinson Ranch's maintenance practices sparked by an article by Anthony Pioppi: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39968.25.html


The link to the original article doesn't work, but there is another: http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/2008jun39.pdf

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes? pH problem?
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2013, 01:00:49 PM »
The "heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend" part is flawed. Common, but flawed.
What is obvious from this thread is, and I say this respectfully, you have no clue what actually caused the problem. Reporting the poor green condition is fine as that is fact. Speculating the cause based on what some traveling tournament golfers think is a very flawed method of getting to the real reason the greens are bad.

Of course I have no clue. That's why I posted it here. I'd like to actually know what happened....

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes? pH problem?
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2013, 06:51:27 PM »
The "heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend" part is flawed. Common, but flawed.
What is obvious from this thread is, and I say this respectfully, you have no clue what actually caused the problem. Reporting the poor green condition is fine as that is fact. Speculating the cause based on what some traveling tournament golfers think is a very flawed method of getting to the real reason the greens are bad.

Of course I have no clue. That's why I posted it here. I'd like to actually know what happened....

Then contact the golf course superintendent.  Don't post about it on a discussion board where the best you'll get is speculation.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes? pH problem?
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2013, 08:13:24 PM »
The "heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend" part is flawed. Common, but flawed.
What is obvious from this thread is, and I say this respectfully, you have no clue what actually caused the problem. Reporting the poor green condition is fine as that is fact. Speculating the cause based on what some traveling tournament golfers think is a very flawed method of getting to the real reason the greens are bad.

Of course I have no clue. That's why I posted it here. I'd like to actually know what happened....

Then contact the golf course superintendent.  Don't post about it on a discussion board where the best you'll get is speculation.

Oh really? Interesting that you think that's the only way to get information about something like this. Thanks.

A) I don't know the superintendent
B) Figured some on here might
C) This is a golf board dedicated specifically to golf courses -- my post was in no way out of line for a board like this
D) Turns out by posting here, a member of the site reached out to the owner of the course
E) Another friend who is connected and who lurks on this site is looking into it

I'm getting exactly what I wanted in this thread. People who know the course are looking into it. One of California best public golf courses is having some severe problems with their greens. I wanted to discuss it on this site. You got a problem with that, you're on the wrong site.

If you think my post was somehow in bad form, I have no idea how it could be. The greens are in big trouble. Hopefully they'll get better, as the course is truly one of California's best. I wish their greens a speedy recovery.

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes? pH problem?
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2013, 01:56:57 PM »
Right now basketball fans that buy tickets to go see Lebron James play are mad because he will sit out until the playoffs. Yet the heat will still plaster his face on every ticket that they overcharge for. People pay a premium for a product and if the product is not to the quality that they were led to believe is there, without a reduction in price, they have every right to question it. This is a golf architecture site where playability is a huge part of the architecture. If the condition of a public course is so bad that it affects the playability so bad customers just stop playing, I think they can question it on here all day any day. If its something explainable then it needs to be explained, until its explained all you CAN expect is rumor and speculation. Someone at this golf course knows this is going on and probably knows about this thread. So come on here and do some damage control with some explanation for the poor product. It's all about good customer service. If you put a poor product out there for the same premium price with no warning or no explanation. Well, that's customer service that's worse than the product being put out. How is this thread flawed if its about a paying customer trying to get an explanation about a poor product that they paid a premium for? To me that thinking is what's flawed. If I get bad food at a good restaurant I say something about it or ask friends that go there what's up. It's up to the chef and management to do something to keep me coming back as a paying customer. Free meal, round of drinks...something. That's good customer service. Apologize, explain and make up for it. But on this site it's all about hush hush and nobody should question because they don't know. Not knowing is the whole problem if you want, or dont want, returning customers.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes? pH problem?
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2013, 01:22:18 PM »
Ian,

Thanks for the support. How my post could be seen as anything more than it was (a discussion about the green issue at Stevinson) is beyond me. If that kind "hush-hush" attitude about honest discussion of golf courses exists on this site, I had no idea. And if it does, shame on all of you who feel that way.

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes? pH problem?
« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2013, 01:38:34 PM »
Shitty greens are shitty greens. Mistakes happen. Numerous variables beyond a supers control can come into play. For a website where every thread is critical of something, superintendents and the shitty product they can sometimes produce are off limits. You can't question the fact of their shitty conditions or question them. Everything has to be hush hush.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes? pH problem?
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2013, 06:42:09 PM »
 Here is the response from Gerofe Kelley owner of Greenway and Stevenson Ranch

Nematodes are organisms that can cause damage to many plant types. In fact they cause billions of dollars of loss to the agricultural crops world-wide each year.  In turf grass there are about a dozen parasitic nematodes that have been identified that cause major damage to turf grass species. Specific nematodes cause damage to different turf grasses, such as the Sting nematode that causes damage to Bermuda grass greens, the spiral nematode that attacks Paspalum, the ring nematode that attacks bent grass (High populations of ring nematodes have been recently tied to the decline and death of bent grass greens, Auburn University) and as you likely already know the anguina nematode that attacks poa annua turf in costal California. Other parasitic nematodes attack these turf grasses as well but these specific nematodes are more damaging to the individual grass types.

 

What has been widely accepted as the achilles heel of sand based greens is the nematode infestation susceptibility. The low organic content of the sand based USGA Greens profile mix provides little antagonistic buffering to the damaging nematodes.  Sure, there exists some organic content at the thatch layer that increases over time. But this layer does not provide any antagonistic biology as it is still too immature to harbor the more desirable biology. Therefore, the root zone has become a susceptible environment for nematodes. Interestingly, we are experiencing the damage on our USGA greens, however our extended bent grass collars that were built on native sand have no damage.

 

Typically more native and pushup type greens have much more organic and biological protection to control the damaging nematode species and usually have less nematode pressure except when sand topdressing has been used for long periods of time, there can be an increase in nematode populations.

 

Nematodes inject toxic enzymes, probably to aid in digesting the cell contents and this causes a rapid deterioration of the cell and neighboring cell tissue.  It has been well documented that a nematode can literally kill cells within minutes to several hours once feeding commences.  Not surprisingly, the more of them there are, the more likely and more rapid the serious tissue damage will be.

 

As the root is attacked, it loses its metabolic function of absorption of soil, water and nutrients into the plant.  Any  stress and the plant rapidly declines and there is often no turning back, because the root system is usually so depleted, that the plant cannot provide moisture and metabolites for the rest of the leaf tissue.

 

Extensive studies of nematodes from universities show that when populations greatly increase there is the potential for turf damage. With the removal of Nemacur the most effective nematicide in the last 35 years and the removal of other organophosphates, nematodes are on the rise. An article in a recent USGA Green Section Record (9/7/12 issue) written by Dr. Jeff Nus a USGA research expert he points out that we are seeing an increase in damage to putting greens throughout the country. Many areas throughout California have been identified with nematode infestations and identification of various parasitic nematodes has caused several golf courses to replace greens.  As weather conditions also change we will likely see more nematode activity throughout the country, nematodes are tough pests to deal with on established turf. Regardless of the situation good management practices will minimize damage caused by nematodes, but effective nematicide treatments are the only effective control once all other management procedures have failed to suppress turf damage.

 

Without a reliable product for control, we are raising the cutting height and applying more fertilizer and water to grow more tissue which means that we will have slower and softer greens here at  Stevinson Ranch GC. This is not what we desire. We have developed a reputation for having extraordinary bent grass greens that play fast and firm. In order to return to these conditions we are developing a large nursery green and intend on replacing our 18 year old bent grass greens with a newer and more aggressive bent grass variety, Tyee 3. We also plan on fumigating and modifying our root zone to make it less susceptible to nematodes in the future so we can maintain the level of quality in our putting surfaces our players have come to expect.

 

Michael, I hope that this helps explain the issues that we are experiencing with our greens. The greens are not what we desire, however they are playable and the rest of the course is perfect

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes? pH problem?
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2013, 10:54:41 PM »
Michael W-P -

Thanks to both you & Mr. Kelley for providing such an detailed and informative post. I am sure the greens at SR will be first-rate before too long.

DT

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes? pH problem?
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2013, 11:01:01 PM »
Michael W-P -

Thanks to both you & Mr. Kelley for providing such an detailed and informative post. I am sure the greens at SR will be first-rate before too long.

DT


Yes. Thanks, Michael. Hoping they recover quickly and fully.

Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Updated: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes? pH problem?
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2013, 07:24:16 PM »
What has been widely accepted as the achilles heel of sand based greens is the nematode infestation susceptibility. The low organic content of the sand based USGA Greens profile mix provides little antagonistic buffering to the damaging nematodes.  Sure, there exists some organic content at the thatch layer that increases over time. But this layer does not provide any antagonistic biology as it is still too immature to harbor the more desirable biology. Therefore, the root zone has become a susceptible environment for nematodes. Interestingly, we are experiencing the damage on our USGA greens, however our extended bent grass collars that were built on native sand have no damage.

I wonder if this suggests that going from natural sand based to USGA spec greens can be a contributor to the problem.
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect