[Tom_Doak]

This just a tidbit from an instruction article in the May GOLF DIGEST, from the mouth of Hunter Mahan.  He's been working on hitting the ball longer to compensate for course set-ups on Tour that require longer and longer carry distances.

I am not shocked by the number ... I asked several players last year about carry distances to check what we were planning for the Rio project.  Several of them said that a 290 carry was "no problem", even though Mike Davis told me that the USGA's stats showed very few players hitting it consistently that far.

It's pretty funny that all the stats show the average driving distance not to be growing much, when the top players all claim to CARRY the ball that far in the air on demand.  The other word for it is "denial".

[Emile Bonfiglio]

On some other Golf related boards you regularly hear people claim to drive it "300 yards". Certainly tour plays have launch monitor results to back that up, but the average person just guesses or take the longest drive they have ever hit and assumes from there.  Certainly the average player has benefited from the new club/ball technology as well.

[Wade Whitehead]

Tom:

What percentage of the typical Tour player's maximum distance do you believe he routinely achieves?

In other words, is driving distance based on players swinging as hard as they can?

I think most Tour pros throttle back most of the time (because they actually want to hit the fairway) and that they probably do hit it that far when they want to.

I'm surprised at the number of amateurs with whom I play that can carry the ball 280+.  I just played in an opening event a couple of weeks ago with a younger guy who smashed it every time.  He didn't post a good score but we routinely rolled the ball past the 300-yard mark.

WW

[Jerry Kluger]

I refuse to believe that number.  There is no way that Luke Donald could generate that kind of clubhead speed. 

[Mike Sweeney]

I just got new grips on my clubs. A couple felt that far today on the range at Sterling Farms. 

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

If you carry it 290 off the range tee at Sterling Farms, wouldn't you be carrying it over the 8th green?


Jerry:

Luke Donald does not carry it 290.  But most of the other guys in the top 10 do, and the course set-ups increasingly favor guys who can pound it ... which is why Hunter Mahan says he's working on carrying it farther, and which is bad news generally for Luke Donald.

[Mike Sweeney]

You NEED to get back! They have a big net now at the end, and I did get one half way up!

[jeffwarne]

I refuse to believe that number.  There is no way that Luke Donald could generate that kind of clubhead speed.  

Jerry,
Given that Donald was 170th in driving distance last year, he's of course not carrying it 290.
But designing something that was just carryable for the 170th ranked player in distance, would hardly be risk/reward for the 50-60 longer hitters.

The averages on Tour can be deceptive as players might not even use a driver on a measuring hole, or hit one poorly that catches rough costing it a lot of roll.

I'm sure the USGA is absolutely the last organization that can tell you how far players are hiitting/carrying it, given their track record of denial.
Perhaps they know but just don't want to admit it, or it's like their bogus target stimp readings(15?) they talk about, but thankfully never achieve.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Here are the Trackman stats for carry distance from the Tour this year:

http://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.02409.html

Last year:

http://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.02409.html#2012

Plenty of guys on Tour who can't average or even get to 290 of carry.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I played golf last week with a couple of very good players.
One is an Am who is in his mid 40s and the other a former pro who has his Am status back. Both are tall guys, and both have always been long in the 6 years I've known them.

They have a buddy who owns a fitting shop. Both where equipped with drivers specially made for them. Both where hitting it farther then ever.

I thought the equipment had maxed out a few years ago, after watching these guys routinely hit it 350 and have 9I-PW into par 5s, I don't think that any more.  

[David_Elvins]

Tom,

I heard a similar story about a tour pro and developing the 290 yard shot.

My thoughts were that tour pros are not immune from trends and whether based on a fad or reliable science, pros are developing a 290 yard carry shot, (to be used when needed, not on every drive), to take trouble out of play.  

In doing so, they are making a decision of forgo accuracy and go for distance.  

To me that says more about courses set up than anything else.  Either that or pros following fads. 

[Lyne Morrison]

Well, if this is to be an enduring trend the need for purpose built tournament courses is hastened.

Why should the courses of the 99.9 % of average golfers be impacted and messed with to accommodate such stats?

Lyne

[Ben Sims]

Does anyone here actually know how those driving stats and trackman numbers are generated?  What I mean is this...is it the average of every non-par 3?  Or is it only from the holes that the players use driver and muscle up?  I suspect that every "drive" is counted.  Not just those hit with. Driver.  Which is why Bubba and his like's AVERAGE drive distance is so scary. 

[Mark Saltzman]

Ben,

At the bottom of the page it says:

Distance from tee to the point of ground impact on Par 4 and Par 5 tee shots where a valid radar measurement was taken.

Cannot be many measurements as Tiger has a total of 3 attempts in 17 rounds.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Average is less interesting to me than percentage of drives carrying 290 or better. Is that stat available?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,

Today on the telecast of the Texas Open, the announcer said that a player was183 yards away and hit a 6-iron, but the camera close up clearly showed that it wasn't a 6-iron, but a 9-iron.

From 183, a 9-iron, it seems hard to believe, but if they're hitting 9-irons 183 should we be surprised by 290 yard carries with drivers off of a tee ?

I think improvements in shafts and the covering on the ball will produce increased distance.

[Tom_Doak]

I really didn't mean to start the same old discussion about players or equipment getting longer and longer.

What I find interesting about the comment is that there is a CONSISTENT distance they are setting up tee shots to pass or fail ... punishing the shorter hitters and giving a free pass to the long boys.  And, I don't think that distance was inherent in the original design of all the courses in question, they are baking it into the set-up by adding new tees and moving bunkers to a certain distance.

Bunkers should be at ALL distances.  Adding ten yards to the carry distance on your tee shot should enable you to carry one or two more bunkers, NOT ALL OF THEM.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,

Decades ago it was 230, then 260, now it's 290 and I don't think that will remain static.

On the other hand, in order to make the PGA Tour isn't there an inherent minimum performance standard ?

[Matthew Essig]

I really didn't mean to start the same old discussion about players or equipment getting longer and longer.

What I find interesting about the comment is that there is a CONSISTENT distance they are setting up tee shots to pass or fail ... punishing the shorter hitters and giving a free pass to the long boys.  And, I don't think that distance was inherent in the original design of all the courses in question, they are baking it into the set-up by adding new tees and moving bunkers to a certain distance.

Bunkers should be at ALL distances.  Adding ten yards to the carry distance on your tee shot should enable you to carry one or two more bunkers, NOT ALL OF THEM.

+1

[Doug Siebert]

Here are the Trackman stats for carry distance from the Tour this year:

http://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.02409.html

Last year:

http://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.02409.html#2012

Plenty of guys on Tour who can't average or even get to 290 of carry.

Well, looking at the results from last year, only 20 of them averaged a carry of over 290, but you have to go down to #80 to find anyone who hasn't carried at least one drive over 300, #132 for a guy who hasn't carried at least one drive 290.  Granted, some of those are presumably wind-aided unless they toss out results when there is too much wind (maybe that's why Tiger has only three results in 17 rounds?)  The minimum carry distances would tend to indicate they probably don't filter out results into the wind, or those measurements were taken when the golfer wasn't using a driver.

The question around the "290" figure Tom puts out is how many of these guys feel they have enough extra power in reserve to try to carry a 290 hazard if the need arose?  If it is a bunker on the corner of a par 5 and they can only reach it in two by clearing the bunker, they might as well take a crack at it even if it is less than 50%, because they can probably lay up from the bunker or rough nearly as well as they could from the fairway.  If it is a water hazard, they need to be much more certain of carrying it.

I can carry it further, but if I have to carry over something that's stroke and distance (lost ball or a big body of water) I'm thinking hard about my decision starting at around 250 and very rarely would consider taking on more than 260. The margin of error us amateurs have to allow is considerably larger than that of a pro who has much less variation in quality of contact.  By way of demonstration, I played my first time since mid November today with 20 mph winds gusting over 30 and on one hole when the wind was gusting up into me I flared the face open and hit it sky high and right managing a nifty carry of about 175 yards  

[noonan]

Reality says 290 is a normal carry for most good players

My best friends son plays division one college golf now

One of the tracks we play has a 328 yard opening hole

He waits for the green to clear before teeing off - and knocks it on the green or past every time

By college golf standards he is average

[David_Elvins]

I really didn't mean to start the same old discussion about players or equipment getting longer and longer.

What I find interesting about the comment is that there is a CONSISTENT distance they are setting up tee shots to pass or fail ... punishing the shorter hitters and giving a free pass to the long boys.  And, I don't think that distance was inherent in the original design of all the courses in question, they are baking it into the set-up by adding new tees and moving bunkers to a certain distance.

Bunkers should be at ALL distances.  Adding ten yards to the carry distance on your tee shot should enable you to carry one or two more bunkers, NOT ALL OF THEM.

Tom,

Whilst I agree with your point regarding the setting up of hazards, two points.  

1.  It is not a pass or fail scenario.  These are not forced carries.  It is also not an absolute, there are still plenty of holes that have trouble the length of them, and plenty of holes with a preferred side of the fairway.  There are plenty of ways a player can carry a hazard and fail, and there are plenty of ways that a player cannot carry a hazard and pass.  

2. There is something a lot more complicated going on.  In 1999 there were 86 players on the PGA tour hitting greater than 70% of fairways.  Last year there were 5.   McIlroy hit 56% of fairways on his way to being the number 1 ranked player in the world.  Whilst golfers are hitting less fairways, the greens in regulation stat hasn't really changed.  

There are so many other variables in play.  Are players trying to hard to copy the best players (eg. McIlroy, Mickelson, Woods) by smashing it indiscriminately off the tee and giving up on playing to their strengths?  

Is it hole lengths and not hazard distances that are encouraging the smashing off the tee?

Is it the prize money structure that is rewarding players who get hot for a few weeks at the expense of those that are more consistent?

[Kris Spence]

Tom, recently I was discussing some redesign thoughts with Jason Duffner for a project in Auburn AL, I asked him at what distance off the tee a certain bunker complex needed to be before he would not just play over it,  he said 285 yards.  I was not that surprised by his answer even though he's not that big of a guy. Bring back the Balata and Persimmon!!

[Jon Wiggett]

Tom,

you could always slope the back tees slighly back to front making it harder to flight the ball quite so far

Jon

[Brent Hutto]

2. There is something a lot more complicated going on.  In 1999 there were 86 players on the PGA tour hitting greater than 70% of fairways.  Last year there were 5.   McIlroy hit 56% of fairways on his way to being the number 1 ranked player in the world.  Whilst golfers are hitting less fairways, the greens in regulation stat hasn't really changed.  

There are so many other variables in play.  Are players trying to hard to copy the best players (eg. McIlroy, Mickelson, Woods) by smashing it indiscriminately off the tee and giving up on playing to their strengths?  

Is it hole lengths and not hazard distances that are encouraging the smashing off the tee?

Is it the prize money structure that is rewarding players who get hot for a few weeks at the expense of those that are more consistent?

Other things that have changed in the past couple of decades:

1) The strength of the player. Little tiny guys are now stronger in the ways that "count" for golf than golfers half again their size would have been a generation or two ago.

2) The clubhead speed they can generate (really part of #1). Clubhead speed pays off with the driver. Clubhead speed pays off when you're in the rough or in the sand or any other time you are striking a golf ball.

3) A realization that steering the ball down a narrow chute of short grass no matter the expense in terms of distance is no longer the optimum strategy for elite players on most courses. This comes along with #1 and #2 as well as with modern balls and equipment. But it may well be that "grip and rip" or "bomb and gouge" was a viable strategy long before 1999 and there was a simply a time lag before it was adopted by what is at heart a very conservative profession.

Whenever this different stategic thinking arose, it is hard to argue with the results from the best players in the world these past 10-15 years. And to beat a dead horse, anyone who thinking they're going to put this horse back in the barn by tweaking golf ball dimples, wedge grooves and the like is overrating their ability to influence the real world, in the long term.

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