Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?

[Brent Hutto]

I suppose I should limit my comments to resort golf as I do not frequently play at private clubs where caddies are the norm. The only two USA private clubs I can think of are Cypress Point (double) and Sage Valley (single). The rest of my caddie experience has been resorts.

In fact, since the original tenor of the thread seemed to be along the lines of caddying at private golf clubs, far outside my own personal experience, I think it's best for me to bow out of the discussion. Hope I have not too seriously offended anyone from the caddie-centric culture with which I am unfamiliar.

[Jud_T]

OK,

I've been chided for my $100,000 comment which may have been an exageration.  Nobody get 2 doubles a day year round.  Of course that means they have more time to pursue other employment or have free time.  I heartily agree that if forced to take a double the suggested fee should be less per bag.  If a guy does a heroic effort, or if you win a big match with his help, you are free to tip whatever you feel is appropriate.  I just chafe at the idea of paying the same rate per bag for a double, regardless of who's carrying.  

[Terry Lavin]

I would rather carry my own bag than take a double.  All they do is slow me down.  I'm willing to bet that on 75% of my shots, it's my turn to hit and I know what club I want to use, what shot I want to play, and I'm ready to hit my shot - but my caddie is not to my ball yet.  So I'm forced to sit there and pick my butt and stare at the clouds or whatever until he finally arrives.  Anybody who thinks that's worth paying for is out of their mind.  I'd rather carry my bag and give the money to Evans Scholars.  At least I'd get to hit my shots when I'm ready....

Agreed on all counts.

[J_ Crisham]

I would rather carry my own bag than take a double.  All they do is slow me down.  I'm willing to bet that on 75% of my shots, it's my turn to hit and I know what club I want to use, what shot I want to play, and I'm ready to hit my shot - but my caddie is not to my ball yet.  So I'm forced to sit there and pick my butt and stare at the clouds or whatever until he finally arrives.  Anybody who thinks that's worth paying for is out of their mind.  I'd rather carry my bag and give the money to Evans Scholars.  At least I'd get to hit my shots when I'm ready....

Agreed on all counts.

+1   would carry my own sticks versus have a double bagger- not much bang for your buck there.

[Lou_Duran]

I would rather carry my own bag than take a double.  All they do is slow me down.  I'm willing to bet that on 75% of my shots, it's my turn to hit and I know what club I want to use, what shot I want to play, and I'm ready to hit my shot - but my caddie is not to my ball yet.  So I'm forced to sit there and pick my butt and stare at the clouds or whatever until he finally arrives.  Anybody who thinks that's worth paying for is out of their mind.  I'd rather carry my bag and give the money to Evans Scholars.  At least I'd get to hit my shots when I'm ready....

Agreed in spades.

You may recall that on that memorable day (it must be, even for you, CPC and Olympic-Lake) over a decade ago, I hit three balls left of #16 green.  Balls 1 and 2 were on the beach and playable, with 1 only a few feet from the water.  I should have taken a SW with me, but when I climbed up to get a club, Barry was no where to be found- I think he was either tending to you or maybe the guy who had laid up left.  By the time Barry gets there and as I am climbing back down, a wave takes my first ball slowly on its journey to Japan.

Worse was the last KP I attended when our opponents in a four-ball took a caddie and the A player couldn't pull a club out of his bag without a long consultation with his hire.  The caddie was working his butt-off and even the other partner was getting upset about the flow of the match, but it was really one of the least satisfying matches I've had in the numerous gca.com events I've attended.

My two most recent caddie experiences have been very good.  In one, the caddie drove a single cart for our threesome of walkers.  The other, a forecaddie hustled to track balls, give distances, read putts, plus most other normal duties while our foursome took two carts. 

[Kris Shreiner]

There is NO question that caddie golf needs improvement in areas and better support. WHERE is the reinvestment...when MILLIONS are shoveled at First Tee and the various, Land-of-the-Lost initiatives troted out these days? And you guys blame only the caddies. Please.

If you'd rather carry your own bag....then don't take caddies and play where that flies. Flooding caddie yards with singles has NO SHOT...unless playing hookey again becomes a national past-time. As VK said,"This thread has consumed all the hot air...see ya!


Cheers,
Kris

[Adam Clayman]

I found a very simple solution to the problem of having to wait for your caddy. On the few times when one ball was right, and one ball was left, I would make sure the player to play second, wouldn't leave my side without a club, sometimes two. If it was the wrong club I'd tell him/her that I'd make sure he'd get the correct one. It was rarely, if ever, the wrong one.

I love the story about Bispo carrying all 4 bags. He told the players he'd just walk down the middle and they could come to him. There were no other caddies available.

[Adam Clayman]

Dave, The situation we've described was a rarity. If there was something to discuss, I'd be there to discuss it. Plus, I would always tell the player if he wanted different, I'd get it to him. Perhaps because my only experience was on the peninsula, the types would get were usually really good golfers, or, corporate outing types. The good golfer groups find their rhythm and rarely strayed, while the corporates were either apathetic, clueless or both.

[jeffwarne]

Kris, Archie, VK:   Do you see those last two posts?   Frankly, I'm a little stunned myself by them.  

You shoukd view doubling as a MASSIVE problem if some of the most ardent supporters of caddy golf would rather carry their own and donate the fee straight to the Evans Scholars than sit around and pick their asses waiting for their double loop to finally show up so they can hit their shots.  Think long and hard about what that means.

I'd imagine that the three of us take as many caddies in a year as virtually any three other posters on this board. We all caddied - a lot. Hell, one of us is an Evans Scholar alum.  And I certainly would have been too if my dad wasn't lucky enough to get into the right business at the right time for a few years before I went to college.  And the other... well, despite his 42nd Ward blinders in other matters, and as tough as it may be for me to type this,  I don't know anyone who doesn't think he knows what he's talking about (usually).  

Think what you want of me.  But when these two say it, it's clearly an issue.  A big one.  If caddy masters don't listen to this and start flooding their shacks with single carrying kids, and send the career double baggers out to pasture - mark my words - there's going to be a comeuppance.   This can't go on forever.  You can't leave your best customers standing at the counter forever picking their butts because you have another customer you have to take care of first for very long before they flee your store and go elsewhere.  It's not personal.  It's strictly business.  

Shivas,
So what does the Caddiemaster do when he has a busy weekday in spring or fall,and NO KIDS are available at a walking only club?

[Adam Lawrence]

El Gringo - is it different over there? You seemed shocked by the notion that a double bag receives 2x the fee, so I'm wondering if the ridiculous pricing is a US custom.

Kevin, I suspect El G may have opted out of reading this thread, so here's another UK-based view:

1. There is no caddie golf in the vast majority of British clubs
2. The overwhelming majority of British golfers, even club members, will never have taken a caddie. They would regard it as a ridiculous extra expense. Remember the average British golf club has an annual subscription of around £1,000, less in many parts of the country.
3. A few of the very, very high end London clubs have caddies available (though quite a few can get you one if you request in advance). Only Wentworth West, as far as I am aware, requires visitors to take one; nowhere I know of demands that members do
4. The only significant caddie culture in the UK is at the high end links courses that have lots of overseas visitors. If Brits go to St Andrews, they might take a caddie, but most would just put their bag on their shoulder, or on a trolley, and walk.
5. I've never, ever seen or heard of a caddie carrying double in the UK.
6. I personally have never paid for a caddie in the UK. I played at Dundonald, the Ayrshire links that is part of Loch Lomond Golf Club once, on 'freeloading media scum' rate, and the club's marketing person arranged a caddie for me; that was my only UK caddie experience in hundreds and hundreds of rounds.

Adam

[J_ Crisham]

Kris, Archie, VK:   Do you see those last two posts?   Frankly, I'm a little stunned myself by them.  

You shoukd view doubling as a MASSIVE problem if some of the most ardent supporters of caddy golf would rather carry their own and donate the fee straight to the Evans Scholars than sit around and pick their asses waiting for their double loop to finally show up so they can hit their shots.  Think long and hard about what that means.

I'd imagine that the three of us take as many caddies in a year as virtually any three other posters on this board. We all caddied - a lot. Hell, one of us is an Evans Scholar alum.  And I certainly would have been too if my dad wasn't lucky enough to get into the right business at the right time for a few years before I went to college.  And the other... well, despite his 42nd Ward blinders in other matters, and as tough as it may be for me to type this,  I don't know anyone who doesn't think he knows what he's talking about (usually).  

Think what you want of me.  But when these two say it, it's clearly an issue.  A big one.  If caddy masters don't listen to this and start flooding their shacks with single carrying kids, and send the career double baggers out to pasture - mark my words - there's going to be a comeuppance.   This can't go on forever.  You can't leave your best customers standing at the counter forever picking their butts because you have another customer you have to take care of first for very long before they flee your store and go elsewhere.  It's not personal.  It's strictly business.  

Shivas,
So what does the Caddiemaster do when he has a busy weekday in spring or fall,and NO KIDS are available at a walking only club?

Jeff,  It's quite simple- invest in push carts. We have several at Beverly that get used during the times when kids are back in school. We have about 220 kids that caddy at Beverly with virtually no pro jocks- we have figured it out and one might argue we are not the smartest guys!

[Thomas Dai]

A couple of comments about caddies in the UK -

1) There have been various tax/benefit authority crackdowns and investigations over the years as some 'caddies' were also claiming unemployment benefit (no disrespect to genuine caddies intended).
2) There has become a practice at some premier clubs, where if you have a walking disability and need to use a buggy, you must also pay for a caddy to drive it. So you pay twice. This is pretty deplorable I reckon.

All the best

[Sven Nilsen]

Kris, Archie, VK:   Do you see those last two posts?   Frankly, I'm a little stunned myself by them.  

You shoukd view doubling as a MASSIVE problem if some of the most ardent supporters of caddy golf would rather carry their own and donate the fee straight to the Evans Scholars than sit around and pick their asses waiting for their double loop to finally show up so they can hit their shots.  Think long and hard about what that means.

I'd imagine that the three of us take as many caddies in a year as virtually any three other posters on this board. We all caddied - a lot. Hell, one of us is an Evans Scholar alum.  And I certainly would have been too if my dad wasn't lucky enough to get into the right business at the right time for a few years before I went to college.  And the other... well, despite his 42nd Ward blinders in other matters, and as tough as it may be for me to type this,  I don't know anyone who doesn't think he knows what he's talking about (usually).  

Think what you want of me.  But when these two say it, it's clearly an issue.  A big one.  If caddy masters don't listen to this and start flooding their shacks with single carrying kids, and send the career double baggers out to pasture - mark my words - there's going to be a comeuppance.   This can't go on forever.  You can't leave your best customers standing at the counter forever picking their butts because you have another customer you have to take care of first for very long before they flee your store and go elsewhere.  It's not personal.  It's strictly business.  

Shivas,
So what does the Caddiemaster do when he has a busy weekday in spring or fall,and NO KIDS are available at a walking only club?

Jeff,  It's quite simple- invest in push carts. We have several at Beverly that get used during the times when kids are back in school. We have about 220 kids that caddy at Beverly with virtually no pro jocks- we have figured it out and one might argue we are not the smartest guys!

Jack:

220 kids is a handful to train, even at Chicago Public School classroom teacher/student ratio levels.  There's a value in having a senior caddy around, assuming they have the right attitude, care about the program, are willing to take charge of any group and they themselves have developed the skills and knowledge that needs to be passed down.

Four giggling kids stumbling around a green and dragging my bag down a fairway offer less value than a seasoned vet carrying double with an eye on the two freshman carrying single for the rest of the foursome.  But that's my take, and as with most things around here this entire debate is just a battle of subjective viewpoints.

Sven

[Paul Jones]

I have had a wide range of experience with caddies, ranging from overseas, resort, private and ages from high school to seasoned veterans.  My take on caddies is I do not care if he is a single or double, most important thing is if I liked hanging out with him for 4 hours.  I did have some really good caddies, that were also really good players, that help me score better...  and I have had some caddies that just started and couldn't read the greens or help me at all.  However, if they were nice guys and fun to hang out with, I had a better time then I would without them.  One of my favorite caddies was terrible at trying to read greens and kept getting down on himself, my friends and I told not to worry about and just have fun with us.  

Whenever I go someplace that offers caddies, I almost always request one and ask the Pro how much to pay him including tip.  What is shocking is this ranges from $40 - $125.  Since I am guest, I pay what they tell me no matter how good or bad the caddie was - only a couple of times I regretted paying the caddie what was recommended.  

We do not have caddies at my home club, but I wonder how often I would use one if we did?

[J_ Crisham]

Kris, Archie, VK:   Do you see those last two posts?   Frankly, I'm a little stunned myself by them.  

You shoukd view doubling as a MASSIVE problem if some of the most ardent supporters of caddy golf would rather carry their own and donate the fee straight to the Evans Scholars than sit around and pick their asses waiting for their double loop to finally show up so they can hit their shots.  Think long and hard about what that means.

I'd imagine that the three of us take as many caddies in a year as virtually any three other posters on this board. We all caddied - a lot. Hell, one of us is an Evans Scholar alum.  And I certainly would have been too if my dad wasn't lucky enough to get into the right business at the right time for a few years before I went to college.  And the other... well, despite his 42nd Ward blinders in other matters, and as tough as it may be for me to type this,  I don't know anyone who doesn't think he knows what he's talking about (usually).  

Think what you want of me.  But when these two say it, it's clearly an issue.  A big one.  If caddy masters don't listen to this and start flooding their shacks with single carrying kids, and send the career double baggers out to pasture - mark my words - there's going to be a comeuppance.   This can't go on forever.  You can't leave your best customers standing at the counter forever picking their butts because you have another customer you have to take care of first for very long before they flee your store and go elsewhere.  It's not personal.  It's strictly business.  

Shivas,
So what does the Caddiemaster do when he has a busy weekday in spring or fall,and NO KIDS are available at a walking only club?

Jeff,  It's quite simple- invest in push carts. We have several at Beverly that get used during the times when kids are back in school. We have about 220 kids that caddy at Beverly with virtually no pro jocks- we have figured it out and one might argue we are not the smartest guys!

Jack:

220 kids is a handful to train, even at Chicago Public School classroom teacher/student ratio levels.  There's a value in having a senior caddy around, assuming they have the right attitude, care about the program, are willing to take charge of any group and they themselves have developed the skills and knowledge that needs to be passed down.

Four giggling kids stumbling around a green and dragging my bag down a fairway offer less value than a seasoned vet carrying double with an eye on the two freshman carrying single for the rest of the foursome.  But that's my take, and as with most things around here this entire debate is just a battle of subjective viewpoints.

Sven

Sven,     220 is the total number and has actually decreased from 300 + when I caddied 8 yrs in the 70s and 80s. That number may be deceiving as 120 probably show on a given day. Attrition amongst the younger caddies occurs- not such a bad thing as you get the kids that really want to be there. Our caddymaster does a series of training lessons and the younger kids are mentored by going out in groups with older kids or members who are willing to teach the kids. If you are looking for a Beverly caddy to be giving you club advice or read every putt for you that probably isn't going to work with the majority of our kids. They will give you yardages, carry your clubs, keep them clean, find your ball,etc. As a member and past caddy I can tell where the putts are going so that's no big deal for me. Just find my ball and carry my sticks is all that I require. The membership has been very supportive over the years by hiring  neighborhood kids that are just trying to make some money for a Parochial school payment or may be trying to save for college. As a result of some great kids and a very generous membership,Beverly this year had 10 Recipients of The Evans Scholarship. We lead the program with over 300 Alums. Beverly also has a long history in being very financially supportive of the Evans Scholarship which allowed the WGA to put roughly 840 kids in excellent colleges across the country. Some of these kids may not have gone on without this scholarship. Some pretty incredible success stories from this program. Also, our kids are paid very well- somewhere in the $50 -80 range which is a good buck for a youngster not to mention the fact that future golfers may be introduced this way. At quite a few Chicago area clubs you have alot of members that got their start looping and moved on to bigger and better things.

[Sven Nilsen]

Jack:

I'm familiar with Beverly's program, and think it is an exemplary model.  But your post does point out what many seem to be missing, which is that there is no one model that will work everywhere.  Developing a caddy program is highly dependent on the wants and needs of the membership, resort or whatever other entity owns the course.  The Bandon model wouldn't work at Beverly, and vice versa, and there are a bunch of other types of programs that wouldn't work at either.

Even within the club, there should be room to accommodate the guy who needs no advice and likes to shoulder his own bag, the member that likes to support the kids in the program and the guest that wants to play well and is looking for a tour guide.

Sven

[jeffwarne]

Kris, Archie, VK:   Do you see those last two posts?   Frankly, I'm a little stunned myself by them.  

You shoukd view doubling as a MASSIVE problem if some of the most ardent supporters of caddy golf would rather carry their own and donate the fee straight to the Evans Scholars than sit around and pick their asses waiting for their double loop to finally show up so they can hit their shots.  Think long and hard about what that means.

I'd imagine that the three of us take as many caddies in a year as virtually any three other posters on this board. We all caddied - a lot. Hell, one of us is an Evans Scholar alum.  And I certainly would have been too if my dad wasn't lucky enough to get into the right business at the right time for a few years before I went to college.  And the other... well, despite his 42nd Ward blinders in other matters, and as tough as it may be for me to type this,  I don't know anyone who doesn't think he knows what he's talking about (usually).  

Think what you want of me.  But when these two say it, it's clearly an issue.  A big one.  If caddy masters don't listen to this and start flooding their shacks with single carrying kids, and send the career double baggers out to pasture - mark my words - there's going to be a comeuppance.   This can't go on forever.  You can't leave your best customers standing at the counter forever picking their butts because you have another customer you have to take care of first for very long before they flee your store and go elsewhere.  It's not personal.  It's strictly business.  

Shivas,
So what does the Caddiemaster do when he has a busy weekday in spring or fall,and NO KIDS are available at a walking only club?

Jeff,  It's quite simple- invest in push carts. We have several at Beverly that get used during the times when kids are back in school. We have about 220 kids that caddy at Beverly with virtually no pro jocks- we have figured it out and one might argue we are not the smartest guys!

Jack,
That sounds like a wonderful program -kudos to you and those who embrace it.

I"m unclear why though I'm supposed to tell my members, outings, and guests, why they can't have the caddies they requested and that they have to take a push cart (which would be impossible on our terrain) because I've decided that the best way to promote my caddie program is by having pushcarts 5 days a week for 4 1/2 months a year instead of caddies .
What's wrong with a sprinkling of both, with the option to do whatever you want?
That way caddies are available on weekdays, new caddies can learn from old, and the local economy is provided some employment.

[SL_Solow]

Shiv;  I am with you 100% on this point.  A kid shows up, follows the rules and is willing to work, he should go out before any doubles unless there is a shortage that day and the caddymaster knows the caddy will et out based on tee times.

[jeffwarne]

Shivas,
So you're telling me a member who requests caddies to take out three, or say 7, of his most important clients, or friends at Shinnecock, National, Sebonack, or Friar's Head should carry his own or take a push cart?
That's works for you and I , but not someone who has requested a caddie for the course knowledge or experience, or is physically unable to handle their bag.

There are other days of the week a golf operation has to operate beside Saturday and Sunday morning.
If you only offer caddies when school's out it seems to me you are doing the opposite of promoting caddying, and walking (for many)

[Sven Nilsen]

Dave:

What you describe is a problem at your club.  Fix it.  If you joined a club where you don't have a voice in how things work, that's your problem.  My guess is that you haven't taken step one to get this addressed in your own backyard.

It doesn't happen the way you described everywhere.  Some places use a draw and rotation system, some place don't allow doubles unless there aren't enough caddies available.  Some places don't start on 1 and 10.  Some places have judged how many caddies they can use, and hired accordingly.  Some places give the player a broad bit of discretion as to what to pay.  If the service was poor, bottom it out, if it was great, pay what you deem fit.

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

That's all good and fine.

So what are you doing to change things at your club?

[David_Elvins]

So what are you doing to change things at your club?

There's a caddie problem at Reverse Jans National? 

Surely any caddie who didn't hustle would be struck down with frostbite? 

[Sven Nilsen]

That's all good and fine.

So what are you doing to change things at your club?

I've voiced my personal opinions on this issue, generally, but the answer to your question is a club matter and thus none of your business.

You're the one airing your dirty laundry in the street.

[Tim Martin]

Sven:  I've seen it virtually everywhere.  Your nerve in lecturing me on this topic borders on comical.   I've forgotten more leather Burton bags than you've ever seen.    You think this is limited to one club?  LOL.  It's everywhere.  Frankly, the clubs around Chicago are among the very BEST when it comes to caddy programs ... and yet they ALLL send out doubles early even when they know full well they have a surplus of caddies -- forcing kids pick their ass in the shack for hours unnecessarily.   

 

Dave- As far as the "shoulder season" reference that would include the Spring as well because the last thing I knew high school kids got out out of school in June and went back in September. That leaves half the season on both ends exclusive of weekends that need to be covered. There is a lot of golf played during the week at private clubs and there are not going to be many fine caddie programs in Chi Town or anywhere else if you can't cover both ends of the season because you have driven the regulars that show up day in and day out down the road. I caddied too and we realized there was a pecking order as to who got out first and we were ok with that. That's the way of the world and not just in the caddie yard.

[jeffwarne]

Sven:  I've seen it virtually everywhere.  Your nerve in lecturing me on this topic borders on comical.   I've forgotten more leather Burton bags than you've ever seen.    You think this is limited to one club?  LOL.  It's everywhere.  Frankly, the clubs around Chicago are among the very BEST when it comes to caddy programs ... and yet they ALLL send out doubles early even when they know full well they have a surplus of caddies -- forcing kids pick their ass in the shack for hours unnecessarily.   

 

Dave- As far as the "shoulder season" reference that would include the Spring as well because the last thing I knew high school kids got out out of school in June and went back in September. That leaves half the season on both ends exclusive of weekends that need to be covered. There is a lot of golf played during the week at private clubs and there are not going to be many fine caddie programs in Chi Town or anywhere else if you can't cover both ends of the season because you have driven the regulars that show up day in and day out down the road. I caddied too and we realized there was a pecking order as to who got out first and we were ok with that. That's the way of the world and not just in the caddie yard.

Tim,
 Would you stop with the real world practical examples.