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Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #125 on: April 10, 2013, 01:05:13 PM »
Wait a  second HH, you're as bad as some of these others characters around here that have putting words in someone's mouth down to an art form. Show me ANYWHERE in ALL the posts I've made on this site regarding caddie golf, or anywhere else, that I EVER suggested that jacked up fees is the cost for a quality caddie program. NEVER. I believe in a respectable base rate. More modest for newer or younger caddies and something higher for competent caddies. It depends on the model. I also appreciate that some player's are being cost-sensitive out of necessity. They may want to take the younger caddie and are happy knowing it might be a different experience. They also, to their credit, often ENJOY helping mentor that younger caddie, shepherding them along. They frequently caddied and want to pass the opportunity to the next generation. Wonderful and noble gestures whatever the thought behind it.

My take is that the caddie should be rewarded beyond the respectable base rate by the player in proportion to what they DELIVERED, in total, to the round. The criteria will vary player to player. That is part of becoming a quality caddie; quickly identifying what the player wants and satisfying those expectations.

Make sure you are seated in a strong chair when you read this next statement. I believe MANY caddies are NOT delivering the quality of service that they are being compensated for! There are plenty of jaded, old-guard mules out there on auto-pilot. It shouldn't be. They need the cattle prod to re-commit to the task...or they should not set foot on the course.

Poor caddie experiences have become more common than in the past in part because expectations are...and SHOULD be... higher. It is a privilege to caddie at a superior facility, not a right. I will not shrink from the assertions you make that many caddie rounds are left wanting. That, to me, is an improvement opportunity...not a call for condemnation of the caddie dynamic.

The game's leadership, especially at the top, has lost their way on the importance of re-investing in caddie golf. This, in my view, is where the problem began in the first place. If you claim to be about honoring your core elements, supporting caddie golf should be well up on that list of prorities. Where does that reality square with what is actually being done? Instead of avoidance and indifference in determining what should be undertaken, they need to engage those that understand what is required and be part of the solution. No one model, not even Evans, fits all scenarios. It takes study and nuance to assess and execute.

There are those of us, though few in number presently, that are working diligently to re-energize and elevate this vital component to the game's health. It won't be easy. Unless there is an immediate profit-center or personal reward, most aren't really interested. That mentality isn't exclusive to caddie golf. Progress is afoot. It takes time.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 03:35:19 PM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #126 on: April 10, 2013, 02:43:29 PM »
And he says "That's alright.  I admire your enthusiasm and you boys seem pretty sharp.  This is the first call I've ever gotten like this.  Should I expect more?" or something like that.

And somebody says "Heck yeah, we're calling every year because WE LOVE THE MASTERS!"

To which he says something like:  "I'll be looking forward to it.  Good night boys."  And he got off the phone.

Did you guys follow through?

During Messrs. Roberts' and Hardin's tenure, the in-laws of one of my wife's colleagues used to spend a few days at ANGC every year as guests of a well-known Dallas member.  They stayed on site, ate most of their meals there, and were treated superbly.  Their visits stopped around the time when Mr. Stephens assumed the chairmanship and, perhaps, the club became more corporate.
 


David Botimer

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Subject
« Reply #127 on: April 10, 2013, 02:55:30 PM »
 :) :) :) ;) :D
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 10:10:09 AM by David Botimer »

PThomas

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Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #128 on: April 10, 2013, 03:34:56 PM »
Quite revealing that noone has even attempted to refute David Elvins' post above.

Taking a caddie might be fun every once in a while on an unfamiliar course, but I wouldn't want to do it regularly, whatever the cost. At my home club, I'm very content carrying or pulling my own bag, reading my own putts on greens I've played maybe a thousand times, and talking to my playing partners rather than feeling obliged to engage my caddie in conversation. I cannot envisage a single benefit that a caddie would provide at that course.

Caddies are an anachronism from golf's origins as a game for the aristocracy and gentry. Clearly there are others who have a different view, but can we please stop attacking the strawman of objection to caddies being an economic issue instead of an individual preference?

Chris:  I love taking a caddie.  Singular.  A caddie.  A kid.  A kid who wants to play golf and likes the game.  I'm on that like stink on a monkey, and I'll pay for that every time: a young Jack Crisham, a young Victor Kmetz, a young Paul Thomas, a young Shelly Solow, a young Tim Bert or Mike Hendren or John Kavanaugh or Gib Papazian or Ran Morissett or Ryan Potts or Jeff Goldman or Jud Tigerman or Matt Cohn or even a young you....  hell,  even a young Terry Lavin. :).  And forgive me for all the guys whose names I have skipped solely for brevity purposes...

Give me a shack full of THOSE guys.  Nobody I know would have the slightest issue with that.  And that's the point.



and I'd have hustled my balls off for you if I was your caddie, because I hustled in the the grocery store I worked at growing up

their cost is a factor for me unfortunately, esp when we are getting close to $100...and even if its "only " $50, they should still work hard...I can think of at least two incidents at VERY well known clubs where I had to pay my caddie $80 each and they were TERRIBLE...not marginal, but terrible...guessing at distances, playing with their iPhone , etc....esp bad when one of them had been at the club for 20 years

programs like Chick Evans are terrific...I wish I could have gotten into the program, as my dad had a serious stroke when I was 11 which basically prevented him from working the rest of his life and my mom busted her ass for 30 years at a local fast food place, so , needless to say, I would have met the needy requirement...alas, I didnt start playing golf til I was 15 and had no clude about the Evans program til many years later...

a good caddie can be a great help at a course with greens that are tricky/hard to read...think it was at Rolling Green about 5 years ago that I had one of the best caddies I've ever had, who really helped me out...I was glad and happy to pay him...
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #129 on: April 10, 2013, 03:56:29 PM »
DS or Hord Hardin,

I appreciate your more enlightened take upon illumination and reflection. That different view is why I take the time to try and convey what many have never really taken the time to assess. I don't expect them to. Most don't have the intense desire to improve the caddie dynamic that I do. It's when there is NO mental movement, or stubborn niggling on minor points NOT really central to the discussion...that becomes troubling. But while I may be an apostle for caddie golf, I'm well aware some can't bring themselves around to the reality. It's a mindset as much as it is about the money. That is sad.

David,

Awesome post. Glad to have a fellow man on the links weigh in with the personal experiences that have enriched your life, AND those you helped, better enjoy this devilish game. Good on ya!

Paul,

Thanks for your take. You saw the good and disgraceful when experiencing caddie golf. I hope that memorable, positive one keeps you taking one when you can swing it. I've NEVER made the kind of money most do on this site. That hasn't kept me from taking a caddie whenever possible if they are on offer. I've had my share of duds, and most of the time the caddiemaster KNEW I was a guy who had a real passion for it. You basically work with what you have. Some caddie experiences are awesome. Others are weak...or beyond. It's life. Treasure the good, flush the bad, just like we should approach the game.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 06:01:58 AM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #130 on: April 10, 2013, 08:47:05 PM »
Hord Hardin's spirit railing against adult caddies: what in the wide world of sports is going on here? Somebody better look out when Cemetery Poteat's ghost gets wind of this. He is going to get ethereal on somebody. And hey isn't Carl Jackson still living? Good thing you're a spirit because he could do damage upside your corporeal head if you still had one.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #131 on: April 10, 2013, 09:15:55 PM »
Since I was named, I suppose I will chime in.  First, I never caddied for cash; my youthful jobs were teaching tennis at a summer camp in Michigan and doing some odd jobs at my Dad's store.  I am fortunate enough to play at a club with a strong caddy program. I confess that I enjoy the use of a caddy.  At my own club, I can read the greens without their help.  Nonetheless, it is a better walk and I am helping someone make some money in return for allowing me to better enjoy the game. I prefer taking the young eager kids so that I can help our caddy master turn them into good caddies.  We are active in the Evans Program and have our own scholarship program as well.  We help a lot of kids and help create the next generation of golfers.  We also create a lot of good will in the community for our club by creating jobs and scholarships.

Schmidty left out another class of older caddies.  We have a number of immigrants who have difficulty finding good jobs.  These men as a rule hustle their tails off because, for them, these jobs are the first rung up the ladder, just as similar jobs were opportunities for my grandfather and his colleagues when they came to this country.

Finally, I must say I am a bit bemused by those who suggest that clubs are harming themselves by requiring caddies in order to maintain their programs.  Most clubs are populated with relatively successful people.  I suggest that they are better able to assess the impact on their institutions than outsiders whose interests are not those of the club or its members but rather are clouded by their wish to avoid taking a caddy.  I respect everyone's right to make their own decisions.  But the club makes its rules and if they meet with anyone's displeasure, that person can vote with his/her feet and not patronize the club as a member or a guest.  

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #132 on: April 11, 2013, 07:06:06 AM »
Ahhh, one step forward...with TWO bags...and two steps back , with one bag! Let me try and explain. There is NO question that in a perfect caddie world, EVERY caddie should learn the job starting as a SINGLE caddie. This should be done with both caddiemanager instruction, AND on the job shadowing under the eyes of a more veteran caddie who knows how to MENTOR. Just because you are a great caddie does NOT qualify you for this role. It takes: empathy, tact and patience, along with a solid understanding of the duties, physical and otherwise.

After the single bag role has been mastered to a competent level, and this progression will vary caddie to caddie, they could, again with "veteran" supervision, on-course, begin to carry two bags. I must respectfully say at this juncture...you can carry two bags and still do a superb job for BOTH players. The PLAYERS have to ADJUST to the process and aid the double caddy where it makes sense. This IS NOT a master and servant situation here folks! It is a TEAMWORK dynamic at play. I'm constantly baffled at how many players, particularly those that should know better, have difficulty getting that aspect of working WITH a caddie carrying double.

Come on, how hard is it to pull the rake behind you after a sand shot when you can clearly see the double caddie needs to get to the other player in short order. That guy or gal caddie isn't shirking out there in that instance, and it's no real sweat of your back. After all, YOU hit the ball in there. I almost always rake my own bunker when I'm out with a caddie, saying to them, " I got it...this is my penance!" Now a caddie who is just being lazy and WAITING for you to rake...that is something else entirely. As many who chime in here have claimed they almost don't need that much from the caddie, simply working TOGETHER can make for a very smooth, enjoyable round.

The idea that you're somehow getting cheated when being carried by a double caddie needs some reflection. MANY caddies, especially older caddies, NEED to carry double to be there! It enables them to pay their bills, put gas in their car to come to the course, help the kid(s) they have going to college, etc.etc. Of course there is an added level of attentiveness and service when the job is performed by a single caddy. That should be the realm of the youger, aspiring caddie OR the aging lion who still has the goods, they just don't have the physical stamina for the double anymore. It is a thing of beauty to see a wise vet squire a gaggle of younger singles around with a foursome. I know. I lived it and you want to talk about quickly ratcheting junior's caddying skills!

Now we turn to the forecaddie role. Make NO MISTAKE...it is an art to do a superior job as a forecaddie. Many veterans caddies have difficulty performing this role well. Think about it.  Four players. All the information. Keeping  the group rolling and not losing balls. Multiple reads given quickly and on point. You get the picture...it's a TOUGH job done well. It amazes me how many facilities send out the kids on this role, often green, and wonder why both the players AND the caddies are frustrated by the experience. NO inexperienced caddie should be put out on a forecaddie job. Better to have them work for just two players in the group on each nine than to subject them AND the players to a position they will be overwelmed in.

The caddiemanager IS the key character here, regardless of the scenario, THEY must convey the caddie status to the player(s) at the outset. This sets the proper, reasonable expectation of what is to follow and quickly defines a comfort level for the interaction. This CRITICAL dialogue is VITAL. It eliminates confusion, frustration and uncertainty from the start.

Turning to the new arrival, or immigrant caddie. They in general, do work hard. The language issue can be a challenge. That said, if you take the same measured approach to learning the job as was previously described, they will quickly become quite competent. I will say that hiring for personality, while high on the list of desired qualites for any caddie candidate, is at a premium for this pool of folks. New culture, environment,protocals, etc. leads to frustration. An upbeat, light-hearted spirit generally handles this better than the quiet, more sullen type from my experience. They should WANT to be there ...everyday. That really goes for EVERY caddie in your yard.

The caddie yard is really a microcosim of our world gang. The better the quality and harmony is, the better it all functions. There is room for diversity, on EVERY level. Again, the position should be one that is coveted. It needs to be appreciated and valued by those who caddie. That means the facility MUST support and respect what it represents. You want your BEST people in that role. Huh, you say? Yes, because they spend more time with your golfers than ANYONE else on the property. This goes DOUBLE if you are a destination golf facility. It amazes me that some places give this important aspect of sustained profitability such short shrift. Some even outsource that caddie program leadership to profit-driven management companies. They're nuts!

Cheers,
Kris 8)

« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 09:42:42 AM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #133 on: April 11, 2013, 08:04:45 AM »
Ahhh, one step forward...with TWO bags...and two steps back , with one bag! Let me try and explain. There is NO question that in a perfect caddie world, EVERY caddie should learn the job starting as a SINGLE caddie. This should be done with both caddiemanager instruction, AND on the job shadowing under the eyes of a more veteran caddie who knows how to MENTOR. Just because you are a great caddie does NOT qualify you for this role. It takes: empathy, tact and patience, along with a solid understanding of the duties, physical and otherwise.

After the single bag role has been mastered to a competent level, and this progression will vary caddie to caddie, they could, again with "veteran" supervision, on-course, begin to carry two bags. I must respectfuly say at this juncture...you can carry two bags and still do a superb job for BOTH players. The PLAYERS have to ADJUST to the process and aid the double caddy where it makes sense. This IS NOT a master and servant situation here folks! It is a TEAMWORK dynamic at play. I'm constantly baffled at how many players, particularly those that should know better, have difficulty getting that aspect of working WITH a caddie carrying double.

Come on, how hard is it to pull the rake behind you after a sand shot when you can clearly see the double caddie needs to get to the other player in short order. That guy or gal caddie isn't shirking out there in that instance, and it's no real sweat of your back. After all, YOU hit the ball in there. I almost always rake my own bunker when I'm out with a caddie, saying to them, " I got it...this is my penance!" Now a caddie who is just being lazy and WAITING for you to rake...that is something else entirely. As many who chime in here have claimed they almost don't need that much from the caddie, simply working TOGETHER can make for a very smooth, enjoyable round.

The idea that you're somehow getting cheated when being carried by a double caddie needs some reflection.



I've reflected and to me it would be like paying to go to the Opera and being instructed to sing the chorus's part.  Not what I went for and even harder on other paying customers.  No, the team is on the stage and I'm paying to sit in the stalls.


I don't know the answer to this but has overall satisfaction with Caddie's dropped with the introduction of double loops. When did it start because it's not my image of what a caddy does?


PS I don't sing and I don't take caddies.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 08:45:08 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #134 on: April 11, 2013, 08:33:51 AM »
Mike,

Cheers to you! A good player might be able to find his or her way around after a few plays, but the first time? No way. Of the second shot on No. 2, the tee shot or second shot on No. 4, and the tee shots on 6, 7, 8, 11, 16 or 18, you're bound to guess incorrectly when choosing your line at on at least a few of those.

Surely this is the sign of a poorly thought-out course; who did the original design and/or routing at your course?

 ;D ??? ::) :P

Brent Hutto

Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #135 on: April 11, 2013, 09:37:52 AM »
Man, this just gets curiouser and curiouser.

Kris has worked his way around to describing a situation where basically two golfers are supposed to induct their caddie for the day into some ménage a golf arrangement where the goal is to perform this dance where the players stay where they need to be at all times while the caddie directs traffic and dishes out the tactics and strategy to be used on each shot. Each golfer is picking up the tab for a "team" that somehow also includes the guy he's playing a game against.

I'm glad somebody somewhere gets off on the particular game Kris is playing. Consenting adults having a good time, it's all good.

But count me out. I'll gladly carry my own bag. Or if I'm at a club where having a caddie is the thing to do I'll gladly hire a caddie. But if I do, the dude better not be imagining his job is anything other than having my clubs when and where I need them. Because that's the criteria on which I'll evaluate his service.

And yes, I said "hire". I don't want a golf coach or a life partner or a hookup for some kind of weird threesome. Just golf like 99.999% of the world plays it, either with myself or a hired assistant lugging along my bag. The stuff being bandied about on this thread is just out there, man.

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #136 on: April 11, 2013, 10:11:58 AM »

As a member at a club that requires caddies I can understand all points of view in this argument.  Even at times when caddies are not "required" pressure exists to take them perhaps because the rules and policies are made for the lowest common denominator player that is not physically able to carry his bag or think and wants to be treated like Mr. Trump.

Do I really need a caddie for a mid-November round when I am playing with one other guy and the caddie is carrying double, and attempting to make it eighteen holes without putting a bag down or leave the middle of the fairway?  Is..." he needs the money a good excuse" ?  If the club is being used as a job bank the club should be employing these people (see how that goes over ;D) instead of the typical independent contractor arrangement.

The pay structure is severely out of whack also.  Does a hustling guy at a private club with a strong caddie program get compensated fairly in regards to some of his peers that might not be particularly attentive?  What extra per bag does the hustling 50 year old veteran get above the lazy 50 year old that does not care?

I thought the people working at Bandon were phenomenal and worth the fees (which if I recall were rather high), the average NYC area "exclusive club" caddie experience at >$80 a bag is sorely lacking.   



Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #137 on: April 11, 2013, 10:23:00 AM »
Sadly, some of you guys just don't seem to get it when it comes to caddie golf. I've NEVER had a player complain to me, or to higher ups, that they got inferior service from me when I doubled. What I'm describing is basic respect and human courtesy during interaction when someone is trying to help you on a golf course. What's the goal...make the caddie work his ass off so you feel satisfied he earned his money? I find the responses on here very illuminating.

HH,

We just have to admit to a different appreciation for what is important. Take your single and enjoy the day. I have NO problem working with a double caddie. NEVER have.



Brent,

You clearly are not a caddy golf guy. Not a problem. Just understand that many of the special golfing haunts in the world have them as part of the experience. I may not like having a waiter when out fine dining, but I'm dealing with it if I'm there. You can carry your bag, but there are places you WON'T be playing without having a caddie. Your choice. The rest of your post was confused because you don't have enough context.

Corey,

The best way to address a poor experience is with the pay. Most places have a base rate. What the player gives the caddie beyond that is up to the player. If the guy slacked, tell him so. That's the only way it gets corrected. I will say again that inconsistent, poor performers shouldn't be on the course. That's on the caddiemanager, so long as the other support elements are in place.

The double caddie that stays in the middle of the fairway and doesn't put the bag down is a no go! That ain't proper double caddying...that's lazy and belongs down the road.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 10:35:24 AM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #138 on: April 11, 2013, 10:36:07 AM »

Kris

What makes you think that some people that might not see the "value" in having a caddie lack basic respect and human courtesy?

My goal is to play as quickly as possible in the context of the game, it certainly is a team effort (with the  caddie) in accomplishing that. 

Maybe some of the people you or your peers caddie for, out of basic respect and human courtesy don't complain even when they feel they are getting inferior service or that caddie is not meeting the minimum requirements of the job. 

Have you ever complained about service at the fine dining establishment or do you just tip 15% and move on? 

Does anyone have the temerity to complain as a guest at another club?  Do I want to complain (though I attempt to tell the caddie what is important to me) at my home club where guys do need the money?


SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #139 on: April 11, 2013, 10:48:57 AM »
Corey;   At our club, at the end of every loop, the player is given a card to rate the caddy on a variety of tasks with room for additional comments.  Our caddy master views this as an important tool for further training and as a way to measure who is really interested and who gets to move up the ladder.  So the answer to your question about complaints is "yes".  But the manner in which one does so is regulated to help maintain an appropriate atmosphere.

« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 10:52:53 AM by SL_Solow »

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #140 on: April 11, 2013, 01:27:15 PM »
I grew up caddying at the course where my dad was the head pro.
It was a different era, everyone walked, our course had about 20 carts, and for the most
part, the only people who rode had medical reasons.
We carried doubles for the most part (big assed Burton bags, with shoulder killer straps).
Mix of juniors and old guys.  Junior members, were NOT allowed to play in the afternoon
unless they showed up to caddy!  we all had regular loops, and it was a good job.

Fast forward 30+ years, and the game has changed.  In some ways, not for the better.
I do not play often any more.  In the past 3 years, I have played 3 times, where a caddy was required.
Two of the three experiences were not good.  Those two were at very, very good clubs, and the sense
of entitlement and arrogance of those two caddies was very evident.  As a guest, I am pretty good about not giving a crap
about those kind of things, usually happy to be playing with the people I am with. 
One of the caddies, did so many things wrong by the first green, that it was almost funny.
I happened to play very well that day, and on the 12th hole, he learned that I had played for a living at one time.
He treated me like a schmuck early in the day, questioning why we were playing the back tees (my host is a good player too).
After learning I had played, his demeanor changed.

I hate being required to take a caddy, but respect that at a club I am a guest of.  All too often, required ANYTHING,
leads to an entitled attitude among the recipents of that work. 

By the way, the 1 good caddy also had no idea I could play.  Asked if he could change my bag to his.
Made sure to check that everything I needed was in the changed bag (asked about my medicine even).
On the first hole, he asked me if I new how far I hit my clubs.  He was awesome.  A high school golfer.
He made a pile of cash that day, bunch of Titleist golf balls, and a very good review when we finished. A great kid

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #141 on: April 11, 2013, 01:32:54 PM »
As performing, supervising, recruiting, training and administering the trade of Caddies has been my life...I know, as I'm sure plenty of you out there are saying with silence, that it's Dave-cum-Shivas-cum-Hord that's telling the lie, misrepresenting the truth and extrapolating a negative spin on "theory" for the uneducated about how double-Looping really works on the ground...

First of all "Hoard," you claim that double-bag work was created by the Caddie for his own enrichment...bullshit.  It was created because any club experiences between 100-150 individual rounds during the seasonal day and usually concentrated into two distinct periods...before noon and after noon. Whether it's the floor or the ceiling (which can go over 200), you are therefore insisting that the CM and his yard have 50 -100 caddies for those crushes, if we were to do it single-bag style.  

This number can't be supported at a great number of places, and in your other cantakerous parallel universe of no-mandatory policies, how would you keep such a number there.

But that's to refute YOUR fabrication, offered as gospel...

As to the merits of what service can/can't be offered by a Caddie with another player's bag, you're also wrong...

1st:  on the 13 or 14 two/three shot holes, the Caddie is already out in the fairway, a hundred and fifty yards ahead of you.  You have never seen a Caddie position a player's bag nearby his ball, shoot or pace the yardage, then go over to the other "away" player's bag, and do the same, meanwhile, letting the first player know what the yardage is as he walks to assess his shot?  

2nd: if you're more than two, there's another caddie in the group...you have never seen caddies switch bags with one another so that the quickest distribution of labor and presentation of the most distant player's clubs are first at hand?  You have never seen the "other" caddie rake a bunker, wipe a golf ball, shoot a yardage because the first looper's players are in a bit of jam on opposite sides of a green or fairway.  It's a team effort out there, pal...if you got your head out of your ass or scorecard or Secretary of Labor duties, you might notice that it's not ALL about you.

I say to all of you that this thread has lost its oxygen.  We're now down to reflecting the individual cursory opinions of a few cranks who just don't want to go along, so they have trouble getting along.

I'm grateful and thankful that I have my health and strength enough to give people (foursomes even) a great few hours on the Golf course and earn a survival wage doing it.  I gain a lot from it and I give a lot to it.

George Peper, Shivas and the cranks can just go away and complain to their own boards - 90% of us, Caddies, Visitors and members are content and can adjust our unhappinesses on our own without their help.  

cheers

vk

"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #142 on: April 11, 2013, 02:09:20 PM »
Pat,

Thanks for your take.

V.Kmetz,

Amen.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Chuck Glowacki

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Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #143 on: April 11, 2013, 02:57:19 PM »
Vic:  U hit the nail on the head with the team work factor.  My caddymaster in adept at matching caddies with caddies as
well as with the players.  Some guys I love to work with because we work with (each other), some guys could give a hoot
less what u or your player are doing, they have tunnel vision and don't understand it's a group thing. 
Most of my loops are 1 member 3 guests.  99% of the members will tell you "don't worry about me, take care of my guests".

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #144 on: April 11, 2013, 03:46:47 PM »

I tend to think that anyone that posts here and caddies (say the same about everyone else in the business also...pros, architects,supers) is not part of the problem so has a difficult time comprehending another view on this.

Any idea how the practice of a caddie carrying putters for people in a cart came to be?  Is that really necessary other than let the people know they might owe a little cash at the end of a round especially when it is a guy already double bagging for two walkers?


David Botimer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #145 on: April 11, 2013, 08:02:05 PM »
In this passionate debate of caddying single vs. double, it dawned on me today that Bandon Dunes is a perfect place to survey the playing public what they prefer.  This may not be the most scientific methodology, so those on the single bag side please explain this.....

Why is it that somewhere well north of 90% of our caddie requests, mostly from repeat customers who have encountered said double bagger, said double bagger being a "lifer" in this discussion vernacular ask again for that caddie.  And the inverse to that would be, why are way LESS than 10% of our caddie requests for the young single bag caddie?


archie_struthers

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Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #146 on: April 11, 2013, 08:20:57 PM »
 :'( :P ::)


Gotta close my responses to this thread after this , as it's starting to resemble the dems vs republicans.  But here's my last salvo . Spirit of Hord , you must be really special , really special, because you  claim you would be the best caddy in any yard immediately.  I'm not sure anyone in the world could make that claim and back it up.    If you are that good, you are probably more intuitively brilliant than any one on board here, so we should .take all your claims about caddies as gospel . Any one over college age is a slug and a bum.

For that reason , we should close our attempts to explain that for all its issues in this new day, caddying remains an art . There are all levels of caddies , from bag carriers to someone who can actually help a talent the likes of Tiger Woods  or Phil Mickelson play at the highest level. I'm hoping whatever bad experiences you have had with caddies , which certainly can and does happen, doesn't continue. Certainly we all enjoy golf, though not all in the same way. Please try to see it  as your prerogative , as we do , and enjoy  it accordingly.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #147 on: April 11, 2013, 08:23:00 PM »



Any idea how the practice of a caddie carrying putters for people in a cart came to be?  Is that really necessary other than let the people know they might owe a little cash at the end of a round especially when it is a guy already double bagging for two walkers?



I usually tip the guy up front so I can get my putter back ::) ::) after waiting on he first green ::) ::)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

David Botimer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #148 on: April 11, 2013, 08:29:45 PM »
In this passionate debate of caddying single vs. double, it dawned on me today that Bandon Dunes is a perfect place to survey the playing public what they prefer.  This may not be the most scientific methodology, so those on the single bag side please explain this.....

Why is it that somewhere well north of 90% of our caddie requests, mostly from repeat customers who have encountered said double bagger, said double bagger being a "lifer" in this discussion vernacular ask again for that caddie.  And the inverse to that would be, why are way LESS than 10% of our caddie requests for the young single bag caddie?



Because they have NO CHOICE.  More defensive drivel.  What does Bandon tell a foursome when they say they want 4 experienced single caddies?   They tell 'em to pound sand, right?  So much for your pseudo-reasoning.  

Hord, let me slow this down to a pace you might understand better.  Why, after playing Bandon with a given double bagger, upon returning to Bandon for a repeat visit in the future, does a player ask for that very same double bagger, instead of asking for a different single bagger, using what those in the CM business call a "request" and do it at a much higher frequency than the players using single bag caddies.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 09:59:21 AM by David Botimer »

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #149 on: April 11, 2013, 08:32:00 PM »
I've played probably 50 caddie rounds in my life, most of them in a tournament setting, but many during practice rounds for such tournaments.

Comparing a caddie who is doubling to a caddie carrying a single bag is a joke. Just stop defending it. A caddie who is doubling is, absolutely, providing a service -- a valuable one even, but he simply cannot do even close to as good a job as the same caddie singling. Too much hurrying and not enough time taken over reads or in short discussion or strategy.

Regarding those who request a double: Why do you think most of those who request a double might do so? Easy: $$$

When I get a caddie who is doubling, my partner and I will give $50 - $75 each depending on service.

when I get a single caddie, I will give $80 to $120 depending on service for a PROFESSIONAL caddie who can read the greens like a pro. That's a big savings by going to the double-looper.

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