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Dan Herrmann

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Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« on: April 04, 2013, 08:51:17 AM »
http://www.timescolonist.com/sports/gary-player-expresses-disappointment-over-missing-out-on-rio-s-olympic-golf-course-design-1.102610

Quoting: 
The thing that upset me for not getting it was the fact that I've been to Brazil so many times, I've played in tournaments here, met so many people, and I thought that would count," Player said. "But it didn't. There is obviously a lot of politics in these things, so you move on."

The nine-time major winner said he didn't want to go into details of what kind of politics might have kept him from winning the bid, saying "you must never be a cry-baby when you lose." He said he felt confident after meeting with all those involved in the selection process.

"We were very optimistic. We did a very good presentation, but there's politics in everything now," he said. "You just have to be maybe more clever, I don't know. We spent a lot of money, a lot of our own money."

Player said he thought it played into his favour the fact that he has travelled the world as a player.

"I've been travelling for 60 years and I've been to all of these countries that are involved in the Olympic Games. I just felt that I would get it," the 77-year-old South African said. "And they give it to a man who's... well, I don't want to say anything, I just felt it was an advantage for us. That's what I thought. But I was wrong, move on."
---------------------

Gary, I've just lost another bit of respect for you...

Craig Sweet

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2013, 09:02:46 AM »
Dan, why lose respect? He spoke the truth...disappointment that he did not get the job, and no surprise that politics probably played a role.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2013, 09:11:42 AM »
It was the quote " "And they give it to a man who's... well, I don't want to say anything," that slightly wound me up, it seems unarguably a dig at Gil. However, Gary replied to me on twitter and confirmed he meant this only in legacy terms, that it was in no way a slight on Gil's ability as a designer.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

jeffwarne

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2013, 09:16:43 AM »
http://www.timescolonist.com/sports/gary-player-expresses-disappointment-over-missing-out-on-rio-s-olympic-golf-course-design-1.102610





Player said he thought it played into his favour the fact that he has travelled the world as a player.

"I've been travelling for 60 years and I've been to all of these countries that are involved in the Olympic Games. I just felt that I would get it," the 77-year-old South African said. "And they give it to a man who's... well, I don't want to say anything, I just felt it was an advantage for us. That's what I thought. But I was wrong, move on."
---------------------



 everything was OK when he thought the politics he brought to the table (i.e.his worldwide travel -"felt it was an advantage for us" )favored him getting the job.

Perhaps they "gave it to a man who" they thought would committ to being there(Gil's presentation)
Not saying that's the best criteria, and we can disagree on who would've built the best course, but it sounds like that was important to the committee, and seems like LESS politics than "visiting every country involved".

Still gotta respect Gary Player though-one of my favorites to watch,even if his comments occasionally gets him in hot water.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 09:19:43 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mark Pearce

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2013, 09:25:56 AM »
Gary replied to me on twitter and confirmed he meant this only in legacy terms, that it was in no way a slight on Gil's ability as a designer.
What the hell does that mean?  "meant this only in legacy terms"???  Sorry Adam, that's no explanation at all.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2013, 09:27:24 AM »
I think he meant that Gil is less able to inspire a generation of Brazilian kids to take up golf than he would be, or Jack, or Greg or whoever. I still think it's a dig personally.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2013, 09:31:33 AM »
I think he meant that Gil is less able to inspire a generation of Brazilian kids to take up golf than he would be, or Jack, or Greg or whoever. I still think it's a dig personally.

We'll see... I suspect that a Gil Hanse-designed golf course will inspire more people/kids to play golf in Rio than, say, a... well, I don't want to say anything ;)
jeffmingay.com

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2013, 09:34:01 AM »
Gary replied to me on twitter and confirmed he meant this only in legacy terms, that it was in no way a slight on Gil's ability as a designer.
What the hell does that mean?  "meant this only in legacy terms"???  Sorry Adam, that's no explanation at all.

I can understand what Player must mean.

But it does indicate that he puts highest emphasis on marketing rather than product when considering golf course design.

Personally, I thought giving this to Gil was the greatest decision ever for golf course architecture and I was absolutely delighted. It was a giant step back to GCA being seen as a profession rather than something pro golfers do for fun when they retire.

Sam Morrow

Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2013, 09:40:11 AM »
Do you think in his presentation or list of references he used Nelson Mandela? I understand Player is pissed but poor form for such an ambassador of the game.

Jimmy Muratt

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2013, 09:41:44 AM »
The committe actually deserves a lot of credit for not going with one of the "safe" picks that the majority of the golfing world is familiar with.  If one of the goals is to build a golf course that will make a lasting impression and help to inspire youngsters to take up the game, I'm confident that the finished product that Hanse creates will be far more likely to accomplish this than many of the other candidates.  

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2013, 09:46:09 AM »
Gary Player designed one of the few courses in the world that I dislike so much I would turn down a free round to play. True story.

Chris DeNigris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2013, 09:48:12 AM »
I think he meant that Gil is less able to inspire a generation of Brazilian kids to take up golf than he would be, or Jack, or Greg or whoever. I still think it's a dig personally.

Well...what's stopping him from being inspirational and helpful to those poor Brazilian kids?

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2013, 09:58:38 AM »
Lack of major championships, on that line of argument!
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2013, 10:00:14 AM »
This is the one that got me: ""I've been travelling for 60 years and I've been to all of these countries that are involved in the Olympic Games. I just felt that I would get it," the 77-year-old South African said. "And they give it to a man who's... well, I don't want to say anything, I just felt it was an advantage for us. That's what I thought."

Gee Gary, those ellipsis say everything to me.  They tell me that you think Gil didn't deserve the job, that he's less qualified, and who know what else.   To me, this is the worst kind of insult - throwing heaps of nastiness without actually coming out and being man enough to say what's gnawing at you.

Gil is one of, if not THE most brilliant artist/engineers I've ever met.  Plus he's a man of great values that cares about his profession and advancing the game of golf.    I have no idea what Player was getting to with that pause/ellipsis, but it really gets me mad.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2013, 10:00:52 AM »
The interesting thing is that as far as I can tell from reports (public and from the few insiders I know) is that Gil won mostly on giving a 5 Star presentation, while the others were so-so.  I have heard that a few pros who interviewed kind of mailed in their presentations, figuring they were shoo ins because of their reputation.    

While Gil did have a few high powered references, too, they probably felt he was both well qualified and the most sincere, i.e. a guy they would like to work with.  In other words, from my perspective, it seems he won for all the RIGHT reasons, not the wrong ones.

Gary said he felt confident upon exiting.  News flash, we all do, win or lose in these things.  It is very rare for outright hostility or indifference from a committee, and they are at the very least, interested in what you have to say, since that is what they had you travel a long way to do.  Its a big decision, and the finalists were sure all qualified to some extent. Given the expense you have gone to on their behalf, they are usually unfailingly polite.  But, you can't confuse that with the central premise that only one of you goes home a winner!

I have interviewed in Florida, where they film all such things, as they did here.  You can order the film.  After a loss, I paid an expert to view the films, and without knowing the result, he told me exactly who won.  If you view these things, you find five firms who sound exactly alike and boring, and one who stands out head and shoulders.  They always say its a tough decision, but it rarely is ever even close.

While I haven't seen the films of this one, and am going by things I hear, I can tell you (from that experts and other post interview reports I have heard) that one of the biggest presentation killers is exactly spending the first 20 minutes talking about how great you are and your past history.  They already know that, or you wouldn't be a finalist.  They only want to hear what their golf course is going to look like.  

Even as hard as Tom Doak worked to get it, I recall thinking from his comments here that somehow, he stated many things, while somehow, Gil made many points in his presentation. A very subtle difference, of course, but the results show Gil was better and more convincing in that interview room.  I am sure all talked about the environment, or whatever issues there were, but sometimes, one firm doesn't just say they will address the environment, they give concrete, understandable examples the committee understands, and perhaps in just the right words they want to hear. (Side note, I have from time to time, tried to repeat things in their exact same words.  You think they would "catch on" but somehow, they rarely do, as human nature just loves the attention of someone agreeing with you.....)

Gil just nailed it, pure and simple.  A perfect 10 in Olympic competition.

I have read that you have exactly 17 seconds before you lose your audience for the rest of the presentation.  I sense Gil started with that and kept going, addressing their concerns and turning them into highlights as he went.  Gary probably spent the first minute telling them about some tournament win 20 years ago and lost right there.

For those who touch the edges of this biz, like Ron Whitten, Brad Klein, Tommy N, etc., learning to deal with rejection is about the hardest thing, at least from what they tell me.  It's easy to blame politics, some underhandedness, or whatever, but 9 times out of 10, they just don't get a good vibe about you in that interview room.  I told the story in Golfweek last week about not liking Larry Packard because of how often he beat out my mentors for jobs.  We always suspected that something was afoot.  Then, I met him after an interview one day and he was so nice and gracious I figured "Holy smokes, no wonder he gets hired so often!"

From that day on, I tend to do something very unusual in the design profession - blame only myself when I don't get a commission I would love to have or seem clearly suited for.   Believe me, that seems very, very rare in the design biz. 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Chris DeNigris

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2013, 10:02:30 AM »
Lack of major championships, on that line of argument!

No Adam...what's stopping GP from doing that?

Paul Gray

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2013, 10:05:48 AM »
Just to add a little highbrow, intellectual comment to the piece, I've always thought Player to be a doosh bag.   ;)

But really, his borderline sociopathic tendencies were part of what made him the player he was. As has already been implied, he cares little for the rules of the game unless they don't work in his favour.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2013, 10:17:44 AM »
When I lived in Brazil at the peak of Players career, I didnt see a flock of kids running to the golf course inspired by this great world traveller.
The game in Brazil wasnt then and still isnt practical for the everyday Brazilian kid and I havent seen Mr Player doing anything to change that since.
Not that I am saying he should have, but to make claims on his status for the job somehow based on his contributions to the sport in Brazil is really a stretch.
He was well compensated for his travels to he country when he did compete and besides who on here can really name a good Gary Player golf course?

Lester George

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2013, 10:19:47 AM »
Nicely stated Jeff B.  It is hard to admit that sometimes you just get beat.  Someone does a better job at connecting.

How revealing is this quote: "We spent a lot of money, a lot of our own money."

Sounds like that's the part that upset him as much as not winning.  We ALL spend a lot of money every time we go after one of these jobs.  In this case it was the MONEY that kept many architects from throwing in their name.

Gary's comment just illustrates how much he is used to spending someone else's money instead of his own.  Stings a bit does it?

Lester

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2013, 10:33:13 AM »
Given I would have been a 10X greater longshot than Gil, yes, I declined to spend the tens of thousands of dollars it would have taken to put in a losing bid......well, 99% sure it would not have been the winner, despite my dazzling presentation skills.....LOL

We also have to recall that Gil offered to live on site, which was a big factor if I recall.  And, with the cap on fees, and the delays, it looks like the winning bid will lose more money than all the losing bids for the work!  Gary should be ecstatic.

In re-reading those comments, he seems to have lost sight of the fact that it was a DESIGN competition and the winner was selected based on DESIGN, not all the extra stuff he might have been able to bring.  It struck me that it is possible he only made the finals for the WRONG reasons (his playing resume) and may have lost it with his design resume.  At least, it seems that at interview time,  he may have been the least hottest architect at the time, with no buzz around any current projects.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 11:04:49 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Marc Westenborg

Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2013, 11:21:16 AM »
I nurtured a project on that piece of land for over 5 years - layout, earthworks, specifications, quantities and planning permission all completed. Then, Rio is awarded the Olympics………
So, even though we did not win the design competition, we, at the very least, win the “most disappointed” competition.
I think all the finalists deserved to and thought they would win and all of them were equally disappointed. No point in moaning about it now.
Whatever the case, I can’t wait to see the finished product.

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2013, 11:24:33 AM »
Jeff
How do you know Tom's presentation was not a 10?


As for Mr. Player, he can still promote golf in the Olympics just as much as if he won the project, same as Nicklaus, Norman....
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2013, 11:27:11 AM »
I have always liked Gary Player, but sometimes his competitive juices get him in trouble and he goes a little too far with his comments.
Jeff, I think you are correct that Gary thought he should get it based on his travel and playing experience but it was awarded based on design.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2013, 11:34:03 AM »
I just learned from today's hieroglyphs that successful people have massive egos...
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jud_T

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2013, 11:34:10 AM »
Maybe they were actually trying to hire a guy to build a good golf course and not a spokesperson.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

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