Opinions on Punchbowl?

[Bill Brightly]

Any strong opinions about the proper height of grass on the inside slope of a punchbowl? I can't recall how high the grass is maintained at NGLA on the left side. Is the grass high enough there to keep the ball on the slope? Or will it roll back down to the green?

Our course is a typical parkland course. A 3' wide first cut lines all fairways and greens before you reach the thick bluegrass rough. We've had some discussion about the inside of the punchbowl, about 8 feet high, maybe 12 paces. Should it be fairway height all the way up, allowing most shots to roll back on to the putting surface? Or a much smaller amount of fairway with rough that will hold the ball and penalize those who misjudged or mishit their approach?

[corey miller]

I would strongly recommend a fairway or shorter cut. 

How far is the typical shot hit into the green? 

I am not sure any or the non-armchair architects would agree but my general rule of thumb is that any green-side land-form that could possibly propel a ball to a spot on the green should be kept short and allow the ball to be propelled in such a manner.

[Bill_McBride]

We have a punchbowl green at the far end of a 455 yard cape hole for our 17th hole.  We keep the grass around the green cut at apron length so there's plenty of fun rolling around.   I would dislike a punchbowl with shaggy slopes, what fun would that be to find a ball hung up on a slope?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bill,
Looks long to me.




Our two are left long. I think it'd be a little goofy to cut them short, they're not half-pipes at a skateboard park.      

[Patrick_Mucci]

Any strong opinions about the proper height of grass on the inside slope of a punchbowl?

Yes,
Fairway height is sufficient.

I can't recall how high the grass is maintained at NGLA on the left side. Is the grass high enough there to keep the ball on the slope? Or will it roll back down to the green?

It's maintained at fairway height until you're far, far up the hill/slope
The ball feeds to the center from all 360 degrees with the pronounced slopes, left, rear, right and front, in that order.

Our course is a typical parkland course. A 3' wide first cut lines all fairways and greens before you reach the thick bluegrass rough. We've had some discussion about the inside of the punchbowl, about 8 feet high, maybe 12 paces. Should it be fairway height all the way up, allowing most shots to roll back on to the putting surface? Or a much smaller amount of fairway with rough that will hold the ball and penalize those who misjudged or mishit their approach?

I'd opt for the greater margin.
Punchbowls, by nature are intended to be auto-correcting, hence, in order for them to function properly, they should be cut to fairway height by a wide margin.

Anyone who thinks differently is a moron.

[Bill Brightly]

The hole is long, 425 from Blacks, 405 from regular tees, and plays slightly up hill off the tee and into the very light prevailing wind. I am average length off the tee and hit anywhere from 3 rescue to 7 iron to the green, most commonly 5 iron now that I have passed age 55...If you can hit it 250 off the tee, you reach a plateau and then look down on the punchbowl.

When Corey and Jim resolve the two conflicting point of views, let me know! Fairway height would be very cool, and be a great equalizer to the bombers who are hitting short irons (and ignoring the punchbowl with an aerial attack.) However, that would make the hole play much easier.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

FWIW, I think, the longer the hole, the bigger the margin presented by fairway height cut.

[Jim_Kennedy]

In the photo of NGLA's I don't see the grass "maintained at fairway height until you're far, far up the hill/slope" as Pat says it is.

What I'm seeing in the photo is what I'm thinking they 'should' look like, not fairway length half pipes.

Now, if I played one that was mowed as close as the fairway I wouldn't get upset.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

Look at the entirety of the punchbowl, it's mowed to fairway height.

It's only when you get to the steep incline that the mowing height changes, but, gravity still functions to propel/divert the ball to the center of the punchbowl.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
In looking at the right side of the NGLA photo there seems to be a 3' wide (or so) fairway cut, after that the grass is long, like primary rough height, and then goes shaggy at the top of the hill, shown at the bottom right side of the photo.



FI's #4 seems more like what you're talking about, and more like your and Corey's favored look:



In a year old thread  FI#4 Alps/punchbowl was compared to the similar hole at Tain, number 11. I like the longer grass at Tain.
 
 

[Bill_McBride]

In a year old thread  FI#4 Alps/punchbowl was compared to the similar hole at Tain, number 11. I like the longer grass at Tain.
 
 

Man, now I wish I hadn't skipped Tain when eight of us went north to Dornoch!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

Look at the cut surrounding the green, front, left, back and right.

Only the steep slope in the right of the photo is cut to low rough height.

The front is fairway all the way to the green, the left is cut pretty far out as fairway and ditto the back.

Only the steep sloped bank to the right is cut at rough height

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Bill

I've always thought that the intent of the Punchbowl was to have every golf ball roll down to the flat. When the Punchbowls were built, there was no irrigation on the banks so, most shots, especially in summer, did not get hung up. I think that should hold true with modern agronomic methods. Donnie Beck's treatment of the Fishers Island Punchbowl, I think, should be the template for all.

Anthony

[Jim_Kennedy]

There suer are quite a few ways to make one work:

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

I think your pictures are significant in that they delineate visual punchbowls from functional punchbowls.

My belief is that if it doesn't function as a punchbowl, then it's not a true punchbowl.

The question I have for non-functioning punchbowls is:  Were they ever functioning punchbowls ?

[Michael Whitaker]

I think the Punchbowl 18th at Cape Kidnappers had the cut about right:

[corey miller]

I tend to agree with the point Tony made and the points Pat made in regards to visual punchbowls and functioning punchbowls as well as the margin for error needed on the shot.

My home course has a fairway/apron height cut punchbowl (after many years of high rough).  I can tell you how much more fun the hole is and can't imagine anymore having to hit a 230 yard three-wood and getting held up in the high stuff.

I also assume Bill is asking for architectural reasons rather than maintenance reasons.  After seeing what has transpired on classic courses over the years a picture (of someones maintenance practices) does not necessarily mean it is correct architecturally. 

Do you know how much cajoling it takes to get a Super to cut stuff like this more aggressively? I have news for you....many do not do it on their own.

[Patrick_Mucci]

# 15 at Sleepy Hollow is a great punchbowl.

The 1st hole on the 4th nine at Montclair has a unique punchbowl, but, Corey is right, if it's not maintained properly, it loses its intended function and is less fun to play, especially when you get hung up in tall grass with a very difficult stance.

[Travis Dewire]

# 15 at Sleepy Hollow is a great punchbowl.

The 1st hole on the 4th nine at Montclair has a unique punchbowl, but, Corey is right, if it's not maintained properly, it loses its intended function and is less fun to play, especially when you get hung up in tall grass with a very difficult stance.

Disagree.

Easy way to increase difficulty without adding length.

Can go both ways. Shaved bowl = more favorable, shaggy bowl = more difficult. If the shag makes the punchbowl TOO difficult, cut it, but if that is not the case there is no problem with it at all.

400+ hole would benefit from the shaved bowl
<350 hole would benefit from a shaggy bowl

[corey miller]

These are classic features on many classic courses, they should play as intended without regard to difficulty.  Let the ball roll.

Heck, why not just bulldoze some of them that would increase the difficulty also.

[David Stewart]

That picture of Tobacco Road's 13th above shows how not to maintain a punchbowl. I love that course, but that green is about 12 paces deep and has nasty native grass all around. It is a par 5 with typically a short club to the green, but there is still hardly any margin for error. That would be such a fun hole if the inside of the bowl was mown short.

[Bill Brightly]

There suer are quite a few ways to make one work:

[

Jim, thank you for posting so many great photos! Is this Chicago Golf Club?

[V. Kmetz]

Would have liked to seen more of the Yale "Double-Punchbowl" 3rd, to contribute to such a discussion; the scant pictures I have seen naturally expand a lot of that which is being discussed

cheers

vk

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bill,
Yes, #12.

I 'liberated' most of the photos from other places on this site.

[Jim_Kennedy]

One I thought useful to the discussion, but forgot to post, was of Hoylake's 9th, a golf course very familiar to CBM.