I have A question that only one man can answer

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak, what were your thought processes as you conceptualized, designed and built the 5th hole at Streamsong Blue, one of my favorite par 3's in all of golf ?

[astavrides]

.

[David_Elvins]

He was thinking "oh boy, Mucci is going to love this..."

[Joel_Stewart]

Pat:

Did you play it with the pin on the back right shown in this photo?

In the semi finals at the Ren Cup, we halved this hole with double bogeys.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel,

I played it three times and the last time, thanks to Kyle Harris, the flag was back right.

I think far back left may be the most diabolical of many diabolical hole locations.

It is such a wonderful golf hole with incredible variety and plenty of WIND

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:

Did you play it with the pin on the back right shown in this photo?

In the semi finals at the Ren Cup, we halved this hole with double bogeys.

Joel:

I was back in Florida with my wife in early March, and since she is a beginner, we played alternate shot golf.

I got up on the tee on #5 and the pin was in the same position as shown, with the wind behind, though not quite as strong as at the Renaissance Cup.  I hit a shot that just cleared the mound, and my wife knocked in the twelve-footer for birdie!

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak, what were your thought processes as you conceptualized, designed and built the 5th hole at Streamsong Blue, one of my favorite par 3's in all of golf ?

Patrick:

The first time I saw this part of the ground, Bill Coore had already suggested the green location; the sixth hole is also Bill's and you had to get right back to the edge of the bluff for that tee to get the right distance on #6.  But, Bill's tee for #5 was going to be well around to the right, playing almost straight toward the bluff.  I set the tees at a variety of angles, but didn't go around quite as far as Bill was going to, even from the seldom-used right-hand tee.

The green just kept getting longer to the rear as we kept looking at the hole.  Really, it was when I saw that we could build a visible bunker at the back right that I decided to take the green on back there.  The plateau of the green was pretty much as it is today, and the bowl in the back right and the ridge on the right were already there, too, though we used the sand out of that back bunker to hold up the back right of the green a little bit.  I knew the target at the back left was going to be fierce because the bridge back to it is so narrow, but I figured that if the pin only went back there occasionally, it would be all right, so we just kept going until the green connected right into #6 tee.  And, once we decided to go to the back left, I figured we might as well get a hole location down in the bowl back right, too.  In all, the green is seventy yards deep.

We had to build bunkers down below the green on the left to try and "save" pulled shots from oblivion, though it is still very scary if you go over the edge, you're never sure if you will find the ball or not.  We discussed not having any bunkers to the right -- just the ridge -- but my associates didn't like the way that looked, so they built bunkers in order to reduce and contain the fairway area on the right.  I did go back at the last minute and make the front bunker quite a bit smaller, so that it feels like you can get the ball onto the front of the green without problem if you're willing to settle for that.

At one point near the end of the project, I saw Bill Coore walking through that area and he told me he thought that hole "might be my 14th at Bandon Trails" -- meaning he thought the green target was scary enough that we might have complaints about it.  Up until then, I really hadn't worried about it much, but in the run-up to opening I sure did.  I watched a lot of play there at the Renaissance Cup and have listened for feedback, and so far it seems like most people really like the hole.  The few times I've played it with people, it's always been a blast.

[Bill_McBride]

With a brisk wind from the right, even with a short iron in hand, that back or center left pin is a nightmare.  You're right about those bunkers, they can save some would be disasters, but my slightly drawn pitch bounced down in between the bunkers.  It is very scary down there!

[William_G]

tough hole to gauge 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,

Thanks, that's interesting.

I think it's a great hole.

If the tee was further right, I think it would present less variety.

The current angle creates an abundance of interesting alternatives.

It's the kind of hole you can play 100+ times, from any tee,  and never tire of it.

[Adam Clayman]

Tom, Did you know the hotel would loom large in the visual when you built the hole?

And, What was the inspiration/justification for the "Bendelow" pimple mid-left. I call it Bendelow because it reminded me of similar features from old photos of Olympia Fields.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I was back in Florida with my wife in early March, and since she is a beginner, we played alternate shot golf.

This is such a great way to introduce a beginner to a full golf course. I've played this way with my young son for the last couple of years, often against another father and son, with dads taking the tee shots. This year my wife has decided to take up golf and I guess this is how we will get round in reasonable time and without her getting too disillusioned.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to pursuade her to join a different golf club...

 

[Doug Wright]

This is a great par 3, probably my favorite on the property (I think holes 3-6 on the Blue course are my favorite part of the golf course). The first time I played it, the pin was back right and I hit into the bowl--not an easy two putt.  Playing it the next day, the pin was just over the center bunker. My shot with the wind blowing down and to the right hit a bit over the bunker, disappeared and after rolling about 80 feet ended up almost in the back right hole cut from the day before--easy 80 foot putt back to that day's hole location. Would be really fun to watch balls roll around that green as mine did the second day. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug, Tom, et., al.,

I think # 5 proves that great short to medium length par 3's can be designed and built, that par 3's don't have to be 250 yards to be challenging.

# 5 is fun, challenging, diverse and interesting, and, the wind is the icing on the cake.

I would rank it as one of the great par 3's in golf.

[Mark Chaplin]

It's just a shame it's framed by a Travelodge.

How does the hole play to the big front portion or is the pin kept centre and back?

[Patrick_Mucci]

It's just a shame it's framed by a Travelodge.

I'm not so sure it is.
That may strictly be a by-product of the angle the photo was taken from.

I was focused on my son's game, but, I don't remember the building under construction being the backdrop.

From the tee to the green, I think the hotel is off to the left and does NOT form the backdrop to the hole.

How does the hole play to the big front portion or is the pin kept centre and back?

Dicey,

But, playing short, and settling for a probable 4 and possible 3 isn't a bad strategy.
Going left is death

[Brian Finn]

Here is a photo of #5 that I took on an early February morning, from the Black Tees.  As you can see, the hotel is not directly behind the green from this angle.   

My caddie had me aim just a bit left of the flag (which was not all the way back right), but said nothing else.  So, beyond what was visible from the tee, I was not really aware of how challenging the green and surrounds are.  My igorance resulted in a routine 2 putt par, but the real bliss came in subsequently hitting a few practice putts to some of the more interesting positions on the green.

Awesome par 3.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Pat,
I imagine you have seen a hell of a lot of Par 3's in your time - what makes this new one "one of your favourites"?
Does it feel modern? ...have you seen many of Tom's other Par 3's? How does it compare?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
I imagine you have seen a hell of a lot of Par 3's in your time -

 what makes this new one "one of your favourites"?

The consequences of an errant approach, and, the true understanding of those consequences with repeat play

The uniqueness of a recovery from an errant approach, depending upon the hole location and your ball.

The challenge presented by the putting surface and hole location relative to your ball.

The wind.

I think those four factors combine and conspire to make it a really great hole.


Does it feel modern?

I'm not quite sure that I understand what you mean by "feel modern"

When I stood on the back tee for the first time I could see that the hole presented a significant challenge in terms of making a 3.
At 157, with the narrow configuration of the green, it's angle to the tee and the wind, it presented one hell of a challenge.
I punched a 5-iron to about 20 feet and two putted.
When I was on the green, and examined it, it didn't take much to confirm that my impression from the tee was accurate.
I liked the "catch" or safety net bunkers cut into the left bank, but, if you missed them, boy, were you in trouble.

What I also liked were the consequences for playing too conservatively and going right.

But, back to the putting surface.

Hitting that green is no guarantee of a two putt, or a three putt.
It's not good enough to hit the green, you have to be in the same general area as the hole is cut, otherwise, you have a very difficult putting task ahead of you.

At 157 to 120, downhill, it's a relatively short par 3, yet, it will produce inordinately high scores.
And, in a medal play environment, making 4 is a good score.

It's a wonderful hole that provides abundant challenge from a relatively short distance.

...have you seen many of Tom's other Par 3's?

I've seen a few, but, this hole stands out.
Obviously, other holes, like #'s 10 and 11 at Pacfic Dunes also stand out, but, there was something about # 5 that I thought was sensational.

How does it compare?

It's unlike any par 3 of his that I've ever played, so, comparitively, it has no peer.

I've always liked angled greens, I think they present a unique challenge whereby distance and direction must be more precise.
When you add in the significance of the wind and dire consequences for errant shots, it's one hell of a combination and # 5 does all that.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Pat,
For me - Tom's best is the 7th at Barnbougle Dunes. I haven't been to streamsong though.

Q: I understand your reasons for placing this Streamsong hole near the top of your list. At what length do you think these highlights or features (which sound fantastic) would be detrimental to the hole's design - would you still admire it at 200 yards if it had the same features?

It sounds as though all the pieces have been put together in an ideal manner?

I am prompted to ask this question based on a hole I play, that has difficult recovery from many missed areas around the difficult and contoured green, basically with only 1/4 of target the only place to miss (front left), to give a good chance of recovery, the rest is trouble. no water. no hazards apart from two bunkers well short of the green. My issue with this hole, is that it is plays between 180-200 yards into a prevailing breeze, if it was at 130-160 yards - I think it would improve the hole, but at it's length, it is just long and hard. No fun.

The 5th at Streamsong Blue sounds like a lot of fun and great variety.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
For me - Tom's best is the 7th at Barnbougle Dunes. I haven't been to streamsong though.

And I haven't been to Barnbougle Dunes

Q: I understand your reasons for placing this Streamsong hole near the top of your list. At what length do you think these highlights or features (which sound fantastic) would be detrimental to the hole's design - would you still admire it at 200 yards if it had the same features?

No, 200 yards would be excessive given the scale and configuration of the hole and the wind.

Could I see the hole being slightly longer ?  Maybe a little, but at 120 to 157 I think it's almost ideal.
I say that because it's short to medium length instills in the golfer a chance of success, a birdie or par.
Once you go beyond 157, those hopes diminish rapidly

It sounds as though all the pieces have been put together in an ideal manner?

I think it's a fabulous hole with tremendous variety.
Tee and hole location, wind direction and wind velocity could have you play the hole 100 times and not play the same hole twice.
And, it's the kind of hole I'd like to play over and over and over.
It's a tempting little devil that can easily extract it's toll.

I am prompted to ask this question based on a hole I play, that has difficult recovery from many missed areas around the difficult and contoured green, basically with only 1/4 of target the only place to miss (front left), to give a good chance of recovery, the rest is trouble. no water. no hazards apart from two bunkers well short of the green. My issue with this hole, is that it is plays between 180-200 yards into a prevailing breeze, if it was at 130-160 yards - I think it would improve the hole, but at it's length, it is just long and hard. No fun.

That's my point with # 5, I think at 120 to 157 it's fun, yet plenty challenging, as you go longer, I can see the fun evaporating quickly.

The 5th at Streamsong Blue sounds like a lot of fun and great variety.

I think it's a great hole amongst many good to great holes.

[Tom_Doak]

One reason it's hard to do a hole like this much longer is due to the length of the green.  If it's 157 to the middle of the green, and they don't move the tee up, it's 185 to that back left hole location ... which is part of the reason it's so freaking scary.  But, we did give you the option to play to the front of the green and go from there, just like we gave you the option at Barnbougle to bail out to the right, even though no one wants to admit to it on a hole that short.

One feature of the hole that hasn't been mentioned [but is key] is that most of the green tilts away toward the back at 2%.  I think that is a great feature for a par-3.  It is easier to control things so that people are able to see the hole appropriately than on a longer hole with a similar green, but it also means that no matter what the wind, you are unlikely to hit a shot where the ball just stops where you land it.

As for the hotel, we only knew vaguely where it was going to be when we were doing the routing for the course, and they only marked the location for it after the hole had been shaped.  It was cooler with no building back there, but since the hotel is nearly a mile away, I'm not too disturbed by it.  But, I'd rather have Josh Smith's painting of the hole than a picture of it with the hotel 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,

The hotel was never part of my perception of the hole.
In other words, my focus was riveted on the green, bunkers and surrounding area.
I noticed the hotel from the tee, but, my focus shifted to the flag and features once I selected my club.

The back left hole location is...........diabolical, wonderfully challenging and long right isn't so bad.

[Bill_McBride]

Has anyone deliberately (or accidentally I guess) played down into the bowl with a back left pin and tried to two putt?    Would be interesting!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Has anyone deliberately (or accidentally I guess) played down into the bowl with a back left pin and tried to two putt?    Would be interesting!

It would seem to be "a" or "the" prudent strategy.