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Gary Slatter

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The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« on: March 30, 2013, 05:01:54 PM »
Watching the Houston PGA event I like the look of their tees and fairways.  At first look it appears to be all the same length with no longer grass around the tees or between the decks.  They may be cutting the deck in use a wee bit shorter, but the look is great!  Simple or not?
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

K. Krahenbuhl

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Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2013, 06:19:37 PM »
It is as well conditioned of a course as they will play all year (including that major in two weeks).  It absolutely peaks for tournament week (and can be quite a letdown for much of the rest of the year in my limited experience).

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2013, 08:22:09 PM »
We truly must be looking at something different.
It looks God awful to me on TV.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2013, 08:51:04 PM »
Jeff, can you explain why it looks "God awful" on your TV?     

To me, it looks different because of the cutting around the tees, it makes it look like the tee area is part of the fairway, which I think is neat, and different, and possibly a cheaper way to cut, one length everywhere.  Normally you get those pretty little paths from the tee to the fairway, boring.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2013, 08:58:51 PM »
The fairway lines make me dizzy
The bunkers surrounded by rough (ANGC doesn't employ this feature-although I will concede ANGC is less attractive since they went to the second cut,but at least it's outside the bunkers)
The awful lakes (obviously not a conditioning issue) I'm thinking they need Hootie to come in and fill the lakes and plant some pines ;D ;D ;)

It's interesting that they do all the conditioning to prepare players for Augusta, but until late in the day today, it looked like a Hattiesberg leaderboard ;D
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 09:48:45 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2013, 09:12:09 PM »
We truly must be looking at something different.
It looks God awful to me on TV.

Ditto.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2013, 11:30:39 PM »
I'm not a fan. It looks like somebody went nuts on a mower.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Sam Morrow

Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2013, 11:48:30 PM »
Redstone is a very pretty park. The course leaves quite a bit to be desired. Kyle is right though, the rest of the year the condition is kind of iffy. The entire course feels like a shag carpet and firm and fast is foreign. Sorry to be a party pooper.

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2013, 12:05:23 AM »
Watching this I feel like half the holes are indistinguishable from each other. Par four with large lake on the side, par five with large lake on the side, par three over pampas grass, par four over pampas grass, par four with a large lake on the side.... etc.... etc...

American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Sam Morrow

Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2013, 12:15:53 AM »
Watching this I feel like half the holes are indistinguishable from each other. Par four with large lake on the side, par five with large lake on the side, par three over pampas grass, par four over pampas grass, par four with a large lake on the side.... etc.... etc...



Don't feel that way, it's the truth.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2013, 11:28:42 AM »
 8) the whole truth and nothing but the truth... hurts.. very iffy condition after they kill off the winter overseed on the tourney course..  I almost like their member's course - Jacobson/Hardy redo-do of the old El Dorado layout better, almost.. at least it had an intimate routing section

the shapes are largely for the tv crane views.. the player doesn't see much of it, as the fairways are pretty large and so you have to be fairly long and errant to really get into trouble on many of the holes.. kinda like a Wendy's triple burger

K2 would experience, Sam "Down the Middle" probably not.. :o

not real fan friendly for tourneys especially with cart paths often below or far afield of the mounded fairways and almost no shade..

and most of all, its a horrible walk.. around 7 miles
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2013, 01:19:11 PM »
sorry I asked!    Knowing about the over seeding and all, I think it looks good and is providing a fine tourney site two weeks before the Masters.   I could care less about the conditions the rest of the year, they've worked hard to get them right this week.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Sam Morrow

Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2013, 09:25:01 PM »
I'll back up what Steve said, I also prefer the Member Course. The Tournament Course is supposed to be spectator friendly but I don't think I've ever seen one any further from the truth. I pray for anyone who got stuck on the far end of the course during that storm. I was on the loop coming back from The San Jacinto Monument and it was bad. Also I don't buy the Redstone is a great setup the week before The Masters BS, it's flat.

I will defer to my Redstone expert Cliff Walston on all this.

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2013, 09:29:59 PM »
Looked at overhead cause I was curious about the routing. I had no idea the 1st and 18th were so isolated from the rest of the course. How long is the walk from 17 green to 18 tee?
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2013, 09:33:47 PM »
Also I don't buy the Redstone is a great setup the week before The Masters BS, it's flat.



I've always felt like the best preparation for Augusta was to go play...........Augusta.
Worked pretty well for a guy named Nicklaus
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sam Morrow

Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2013, 09:34:18 PM »
Looked at overhead cause I was curious about the routing. I had no idea the 1st and 18th were so isolated from the rest of the course. How long is the walk from 17 green to 18 tee?



I really think it's atleast 1/4 mile, maybe longer. After the first 17 holes it feels like a 10 mile walk.

Sam Morrow

Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2013, 09:34:47 PM »
Also I don't buy the Redstone is a great setup the week before The Masters BS, it's flat.



I've always felt like the best preparation for Augusta was to go play...........Augusta.
Worked pretty well for a guy named Nicklaus

That Hogan guy went to Florida. Nicklaus and Hogan didn't get it.

Jeff Blume

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2013, 11:18:47 PM »
All the lakes at Redstone are the result of the need to obtain fill material to raise the course out of the swamp land where it was built.  Having been the General Chairman of the SHO for two years and intimately involved in the operations of the tournament for almost two decades I can tell you that their are some difficulties in moving people around the golf course.  However, that is the result of certain planning issues that were in place prior to the design of the course.  Rees came up with a good solution considering the constraints he was working under.  All of the tournament facilities and clubhouse are located on the north side of the bayou.  Consequently, the first and eighteenth holes are located to be as close to these facilities as possible.  It works great when we have a playoff because the rotation is 18-1-18.  The separation between 1 and 2 and 17 and 18 is a problem, but we manage by transporting the players, caddies, scorers, walking marshals and standard bearers with carts.  Players finishing on #9 in rounds 1 and 2 also get transported to the clubhouse via golf cart.

Whether you like the character of the course or not is up for debate, but I think Steve Timms (tournament director) and the staff at Redstone do an outstanding job incorporating the "Augusta" feel during the event.  On several occassions our champions have remarked that Redstone is the best conditioned course they play all year, and the vast majority of players love the set up.  Can Redstone provide the elevation change of Augusta? Certainly not, but many of the maintenance practices are implemented from the Masters to mimick the conditions at Augusta including the rough height, shaved banks adjacent to the lakes, mowing the fairways so the grain of the turf is into the player, and providing similar green speeds. 

Rees and Greg Muirhead must have done something right at Redstone because even Phil Mickelson doesn't criticize the course, and continues to return to the Shell Houston Open each year.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2013, 11:43:56 PM »
Rees and Greg Muirhead must have done something right at Redstone because even Phil Mickelson doesn't criticize the course, and continues to return to the Shell Houston Open each year.

Thanks Jeff
I don't trust Phil's architecture critique.
What do you like about the golf course?

I think the HGA, SHO, Randy Samoff ( https://twitter.com/RedstoneSuper ) and the volunteers all get a 10!
The golf course design is more like a 3 for its greens, bunkers, hazards, tees and lack of variety.
My understanding is that the PGA Tour design services had much input into the design as well.

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Sam Morrow

Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2013, 12:32:03 AM »
All the lakes at Redstone are the result of the need to obtain fill material to raise the course out of the swamp land where it was built.  Having been the General Chairman of the SHO for two years and intimately involved in the operations of the tournament for almost two decades I can tell you that their are some difficulties in moving people around the golf course.  However, that is the result of certain planning issues that were in place prior to the design of the course.  Rees came up with a good solution considering the constraints he was working under.  All of the tournament facilities and clubhouse are located on the north side of the bayou.  Consequently, the first and eighteenth holes are located to be as close to these facilities as possible.  It works great when we have a playoff because the rotation is 18-1-18.  The separation between 1 and 2 and 17 and 18 is a problem, but we manage by transporting the players, caddies, scorers, walking marshals and standard bearers with carts.  Players finishing on #9 in rounds 1 and 2 also get transported to the clubhouse via golf cart.

Whether you like the character of the course or not is up for debate, but I think Steve Timms (tournament director) and the staff at Redstone do an outstanding job incorporating the "Augusta" feel during the event.  On several occassions our champions have remarked that Redstone is the best conditioned course they play all year, and the vast majority of players love the set up.  Can Redstone provide the elevation change of Augusta? Certainly not, but many of the maintenance practices are implemented from the Masters to mimick the conditions at Augusta including the rough height, shaved banks adjacent to the lakes, mowing the fairways so the grain of the turf is into the player, and providing similar green speeds. 

Rees and Greg Muirhead must have done something right at Redstone because even Phil Mickelson doesn't criticize the course, and continues to return to the Shell Houston Open each year.

Jeff,

 Of course the pros love it, they can hit driver on every hole and 18 is a par 4 with water left. What were your thoughts on the Member course as a host site?

Jeff Blume

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2013, 12:49:13 AM »
Mike,

I think the course is very playable and the shot values are varied for the good player without overly penalizing the average guy (plenty of room to hit the ball and many of the greens have open approaches).  Granted the design may not be visually spectacular, but it is a pleasant place to be during the shoulder months and the conditioning is usually top notch when overseeded.

Rees's golf courses are usually tactically sound even if their visual presentation is not for everyone.

Sam,

I much preferred the Tournament Course at the Woodlands to the Member Course at Redstone.  The Woodlands may have lacked a little in length for professionals, but it was a fantastic shot makers course and the finish from 13-18 was always unpredictable.  I've been a member at Redstone, but rarely use the facility because it is too far away from where I live.

Sam Morrow

Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2013, 12:55:41 AM »
Mike,

I think the course is very playable and the shot values are varied for the good player without overly penalizing the average guy (plenty of room to hit the ball and many of the greens have open approaches).  Granted the design may not be visually spectacular, but it is a pleasant place to be during the shoulder months and the conditioning is usually top notch when overseeded.

Rees's golf courses are usually tactically sound even if their visual presentation is not for everyone.

Sam,

I much preferred the Tournament Course at the Woodlands to the Member Course at Redstone.  The Woodlands may have lacked a little in length for professionals, but it was a fantastic shot makers course and the finish from 13-18 was always unpredictable.  I've been a member at Redstone, but rarely use the facility because it is too far away from where I live.

Thanks, I'm glad to hear someone else preferred The Woodlands. My Dad played many times in the pro-am and I caddied several times and the players always bitched about the course. The first thing was always about how you didn't need driver and you had to shape shots.

 Around 2000ish I caddied for a friends uncle and Vijay was the pro, he was a nice guy but complained. We teed off on 10 and I think he hit driver twice on the back. As we walked off the first green he grabbed a long iron out of his bag he was next to me looked me in the eyes and said, "Boy, I'm sick of hitting G Damned irons off the tee." Thought that was odd, the guy was one of the greatest shot makers of all time. I have a good Donnie Hammond story that was before my time but let's just say he wasn't complimentary of the place.

Jeff Blume

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2013, 01:08:00 AM »
It is interesting how all these players complained about the Woodlands until we left.  Now that they are on the senior tour and don't hit it as far they love the place.

Vijay is not one of my favorites.  He won the SHO three times and we gave him almost $4,000,000 in winnings and he never once came back for media day.  He was always one to complain.  By contrast, Paul Casey won my first year as Chairman and donated $100,000 of his winnings back to local charities.

My opinion of the member course at Redstone is that it is so-so.

Sam Morrow

Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2013, 01:09:48 AM »
It is interesting how all these players complained about the Woodlands until we left.  Now that they are on the senior tour and don't hit it as far they love the place.

Vijay is not one of my favorites.  He won the SHO three times and we gave him almost $4,000,000 in winnings and he never once came back for media day.  He was always one to complain.  By contrast, Paul Casey won my first year as Chairman and donated $100,000 of his winnings back to local charities.

My opinion of the member course at Redstone is that it is so-so.

Glad to hear Paul Casey gave back, a friend at Redstone complained that he only gave the locker room guys $100 the year he won.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Tee/Fairway cut at Redstone, love it !
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2013, 10:02:01 AM »
Jeff

From my enjoyable time playing together I'd guess you have a ghin of 2 - is that close?

The fairways measure from 20-35 yards wide, with most close to 25 yards.
15 of the greens are flanked and pinched hard left and right by bunkers and lakes, the other three are flanked to one side.
My recollection is all the greens are elevated.
I recall at least one ditch that crossed the fairway near 360 yards - relevant to only the average player.

What is a visually spectacular course in Houston?
Can you explain some of the varied shot values?

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

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