The more I reflect upon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Streamsong, the more I like it.

When you think of the extremely high quality of the two courses, each similar in some fashion and each unique in others, it's hard to beat as a destination, especially in the Spring, Fall and Winter.

I'm hoping to return in the summer and I'm hoping that the breezes I enjoyed a few weeks ago will continue to sweep the property.
If the breeze keeps the temperatures reasonable, and I like it hot, I see great things for Streamsong.

Streamsong is probably an ideal site for a late summer-early fall USGA event, which would help them in their marketing efforts.

But, back to the two courses.

They get it.
They want firm and fast conditions.
No rough.
Nice breeze
Fun, yet challenging.

My son keeps asking when can we go back to Streamsong, so here's a young man, just starting to play seriously, and he's already recognized the uniqueness and quality of the architecture.

I've always believed that width is the key to enjoyment for the broad spectrum of golfers and Streamsong has more than generous width.

As with most resort or destination golf courses, pace of play is critical to enjoyment.

How can Streamsong improve pace of play while maintaining an hospitable atmosphere ?

My first thought was for the starter to inform golfers on the first tee that play is expected to be in 3.5 hours or faster.
Obviously, once one group plays slow, everyone behind them will be slowed down, so keeping a brisk pace is critical, especially for the early rounds.

Your thoughts ?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Now officially something weird going on here, I was having exactly the same thoughts this morning whilst admiring the groups photos of the place again..onve again agreeing with you again Pat
A quality venue indeed, I just fear the amount of time to play medal rounds on the courses would  drive the USGA nuts.
That been said perfect for Senior Am especiialy after when I turn 55, lets start those wheels turning

[Bill_McBride]

I had a great time, as long as I played from those silver tees.   I think as long as caddies are going to be with most groups, the pace of play will be decent.  We didn't have an problem playing 36 before Daylight Savings Time started, although I think our last group might have needed flashlights. 

Those are two exceptional courses.  I think they were like an amped up version of Bandon.  The huge dunes made both courses more exciting, if that's the right word, than Bandon Dunes or Bandon Trails. 

Pat, I believe the heat at Streamsong will be oppressive in August, even in a breeze.  Here in Pensacola with a pretty consistent offshore breeze, the summer heat (92 temps, 70% humidity) is miserable.  I can only imagine Streamsong in those conditions, and look forward to your report!

[Bill Brightly]

I agree with everything you said about the courses, but here is one potential problem I see: Once the hotel opens with 200+ rooms, will they be able to handle all the requests they will have for early AM and PM tee times so golfers can play 36 holes? Not a problem this year with a capacity of only 16 at the lodge... But if snowbirds like me are going to make the trip to an isolated spot in the middle of nowhere, all there is to do is play golf, so I want to play 36 holes. They can use front and back nines to start groups, but that only doubles the maximum number of 36 holes rounds. This potential problem is significant during the winter months with limited hours of light, IMO.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

With two courses, starting on the first tee, at 10 minute intervals, you can get 56 golfers off in the first hour, 48 in the second hour

If you used both nines, that's 208 in the first two hours.

That presumes that everything works to a tee.

I suspect, that if the hotel consistently gets 60-80 % capacity that a third course won't be far behind.

My concern has to do with pace of play at a resort.
I think a caddy mandatory rule would be an asset to pace of play.

The moment rounds, on a both nine tee off, go beyond 2:15, you've got a problem.

With the land cost zero, what would a third course cost ?

[Jim Nugent]

Pat or anyone -- what is the land like for a 3rd course? 

[Mike Sweeney]

How can Streamsong improve pace of play while maintaining an hospitable atmosphere ?

My first thought was for the starter to inform golfers on the first tee that play is expected to be in 3.5 hours or faster.
Obviously, once one group plays slow, everyone behind them will be slowed down, so keeping a brisk pace is critical, especially for the early rounds.

Your thoughts ?

Streamsong has obviously passed the first hurdle. The courses are a combination of unique, fun and challenging. The big question is what happens when the lodge and 220 rooms open on site? Tee times and pace of play are one issue, but how do you maintain the "vibe"?

The days that I played were very early with a handful of cars in the parking lot on the first and a couple of dozen the second day.

I would guess that the courses were relatively quiet this year in comparison to next year.

Weekends next February and March will be challenging to manage, and while that is a good problem for them to have at this early stage, we all know this group is not afraid to speak out.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I think the "vibe" will get maintained because the lodge/hotel is located far from the clubhouse.

It would be interesting to know what it costs to operate Streamsong, currently, and what it will cost once the lodge/hotel is operational.

The other question I have is how frequently will shuttles depart the lodge/hotel for the clubhouse and vice versa?

[Jerry Kluger]

I thought the next step should be a short course near the hotel. Not everyone wants to play 36 or they may be getting in late, etc.  I have heard that the short course at Bandon has been very well received and it should work at Streamsong.  I would also point out that the hotel is supposed to be more than just rooms and is set up to be a resort so non-golfing spouses would also enjoy themselves.  I would also note that cost is going to be an important factor as it is on the high side now and I can easily see a price increase.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jerry,

I wonder if the next course built will be located close to the lodge/hotel for obvious reasons.

And, if the design will be one where both nines return to the clubhouse.

Starting golfers on both nines on the Red and Blue creates logistical problems

[Jeffrey Conners]

My son and I played the Blue last Sunday in 30+ mph winds.  The course was not very crowded at 1:00 PM and we played as a twosome in about three hours.  We played the Red Monday at 9:00 AM in a foursome and it took over four-and-a-half hours.  I have nothing but great things to say about Streamsong aside from the pace of play.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeffrey,

At my 3 days at Streamsong I found the same to be true.

Afternoon rounds took 3 hours or less, morning rounds (8:00 & 9:15) took 4:30 hours or more.

Once a single foursome plays slow, every group behind them is doomed to a slow round.

There has to be a brisk pace of play and the mandate to keep up with the group ahead of you.

3:30 should be the target time.

[Greg Tallman]

Jeffrey,

At my 3 days at Streamsong I found the same to be true.

Afternoon rounds took 3 hours or less, morning rounds (8:00 & 9:15) took 4:30 hours or more.

Once a single foursome plays slow, every group behind them is doomed to a slow round.

There has to be a brisk pace of play and the mandate to keep up with the group ahead of you.

3:30 should be the target time.

I can assure you 3:30 is simply not realistic. It may sound good to folks on this site but at a resort facility it is simply not going to happen. Our guys frequently have groups skipping holes just to get everyone around in 4:30 or less.

[Tom_Doak]

Jerry,

I wonder if the next course built will be located close to the lodge/hotel for obvious reasons.

And, if the design will be one where both nines return to the clubhouse.

Starting golfers on both nines on the Red and Blue creates logistical problems

Patrick:

I was going to point out, earlier, that you can't really start golfers on #10 tee of either course in the mornings.  Due to the nature of the land around the clubhouse, which has water on two sides and a big dune covering the entrance on the third side, it was impossible to get more holes to return to the clubhouse than we did.

I have no idea what they are thinking in regard to more golf at the facility.  I imagine they will wait a couple of years to see how the traffic is at the hotel, before making a plan.  But, I can say that aside from the site we used [where there is no more room for golf], one of the other sites they had us look at originally was the land around where the hotel is being built now.  The land was reclaimed years ago and it is very gentle, but there is some nice vegetation, and there are several lagoons which are 8-10 feet below ground level, so there is some room to create contour without getting to water table.  It would be a nice piece of ground for a par-3 course or for something more family-friendly if that's the direction they decide to go; but it would not have put the place on the map to start.

[Howard Riefs]

My first thought was for the starter to inform golfers on the first tee that play is expected to be in 3.5 hours or faster.
Obviously, once one group plays slow, everyone behind them will be slowed down, so keeping a brisk pace is critical, especially for the early rounds.

3.5 hours is a pipe dream at most resort courses let alone Streamsong. What other resort courses have you been to that mandated a 3.5 hour round?

We didn't have an problem playing 36 before Daylight Savings Time started, although I think our last group might have needed flashlights. 

I played in the last group both afternoons. We had little sunlight on Friday by the time we holed out on Red #18. Flashlights, or headlights from the cars in the nearby parking lot, would've been required 15 minutes later.

[Tim Martin]

My first thought was for the starter to inform golfers on the first tee that play is expected to be in 3.5 hours or faster.
Obviously, once one group plays slow, everyone behind them will be slowed down, so keeping a brisk pace is critical, especially for the early rounds.

3.5 hours is a pipe dream at most resort courses let alone Streamsong. What other resort courses have you been to that mandated a 3.5 hour round?

We didn't have an problem playing 36 before Daylight Savings Time started, although I think our last group might have needed flashlights. 

I played in the last group both afternoons. We had little sunlight on Friday by the time we holed out on Red #18. Flashlights, or headlights from the cars in the nearby parking lot, would've been required 15 minutes later.

Forget about resort courses and think about how many privates with full tee sheets allow you to get around in 31/2 hours. Certainly ideal but most likely unrealistic at a facility like SS.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Greg & Howard,

It seems that Streamsong is attractive to, and intends to attract, the serious "golfer", not the casual or novice golfer.
To me it seems that their target market is golfers who belong to or play regularly at courses north of Streamsong.

Having played three rounds in 3:00, I don't see why you're stating that 3:30 isn't possible.

No rough, no abundance of trees, wide fairways, caddies/forecaddies and very few long green to tee walks, would seem to help.
(# 7 to # 8 Blue is a significant exception)

Water does create an impediment to fast play.

As to daylight, Sreamsong is as far west as Ohio, so they probably get an extra half hour or more of light vs NYC.

4:30 will significantly dampen the fun factor and hurt the bottom line.

If tee times are ten minutes apart and groups take 11 minutes to play each hole, that's a 3 hour and 20 minute round.
Is that rushing ?  Why isn't that possible ?

13 minutes per hole is still less than 4 hours.
Why isn't that possible ?

If you were at Pine Valley and the starter told your group that play was in no more than 3.5 hours, would you play in less than 3.5 hours ?

Ken Bakst made the effort to change the culture of golf (for the better) at a private club.
What would be wrong with Streamsong trying to change the culture of golf at a golf resort, a serious golf resort.

I know, that knowing rounds are 3.5 or less at Streamsong would make Streamsong far more attractive to me.

Tom Doak,

Agreed, I previously mentioned that the logistics won't work for dual nine starts, which makes pace of play more important.

As I  stated earlier, I loved both courses and favored the Blue.
Playing in under 4 hours makes the Streamsong experience even more fun.
Playing in Notre than 4.0 will detract from that experience.
With those wide fairways, there's no reason why golfers with caddies/forecaddies should take more than 3.5.

I always wondered, if they had it to do over, whether PV would have introduced an 18 hole short course, or a full 18 hole executive course, or another full 18 hole course.   I suspect that Streamsong might go through the same exercise.

The same

As a destination resort, with little else available, second rounds become an important part of the Sreamsong experience

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,

I think the "vibe" will get maintained because the lodge/hotel is located far from the clubhouse.

Pat,

How many morons have you been hanging out with so far this year?

You stayed in a 12 room lodge, walked downstairs for eggs benedict, played 8 ball with your son and never touched a shuttle on your recent visit. Next year you may have to take a shuttle for over a mile in the cold at night, wait for 200+ golfers to be shuttled around and the "vibe" is not going to change !!??

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I think the "vibe" will get maintained because the lodge/hotel is located far from the clubhouse.

Pat,

How many morons have you been hanging out with so far this year?

A GREAT number, and I've been corresponding with an even greater number of morons on this site, yourself included

You stayed in a 12 room lodge, walked downstairs for eggs benedict, played 8 ball with your son and never touched a shuttle on your recent visit. Next year you may have to take a shuttle for over a mile in the cold at night, wait for 200+ golfers to be shuttled around and the "vibe" is not going to change !!??

No. Not for me.

Next year I'm staying in the same room, walking downstairs for eggs Benedict and playing 8 Ball with my son.
I have no intention of riding in a shuttle 

[Greg Tallman]

Greg & Howard,

It seems that Streamsong is attractive to, and intends to attract, the serious "golfer", not the casual or novice golfer.
To me it seems that their target market is golfers who belong to or play regularly at courses north of Streamsong.

Having played three rounds in 3:00, I don't see why you're stating that 3:30 isn't possible.

No rough, no abundance of trees, wide fairways, caddies/forecaddies and very few long green to tee walks, would seem to help.
(# 7 to # 8 Blue is a significant exception)

Water does create an impediment to fast play.

As to daylight, Sreamsong is as far west as Ohio, so they probably get an extra half hour or more of light vs NYC.

4:30 will significantly dampen the fun factor and hurt the bottom line.

If tee times are ten minutes apart and groups take 11 minutes to play each hole, that's a 3 hour and 20 minute round.
Is that rushing ?  Why isn't that possible ?

13 minutes per hole is still less than 4 hours.
Why isn't that possible ?

If you were at Pine Valley and the starter told your group that play was in no more than 3.5 hours, would you play in less than 3.5 hours ?

Ken Bakst made the effort to change the culture of golf (for the better) at a private club.
What would be wrong with Streamsong trying to change the culture of golf at a golf resort, a serious golf resort.

I know, that knowing rounds are 3.5 or less at Streamsong would make Streamsong far more attractive to me.

Tom Doak,

Agreed, I previously mentioned that the logistics won't work for dual nine starts, which makes pace of play more important.

As I  stated earlier, I loved both courses and favored the Blue.
Playing in under 4 hours makes the Streamsong experience even more fun.
Playing in Notre than 4.0 will detract from that experience.
With those wide fairways, there's no reason why golfers with caddies/forecaddies should take more than 3.5.

I always wondered, if they had it to do over, whether PV would have introduced an 18 hole short course, or a full 18 hole executive course, or another full 18 hole course.   I suspect that Streamsong might go through the same exercise.

The same

As a destination resort, with little else available, second rounds become an important part of the Sreamsong experience

I chuckle wondering how you would attack the Pine Valley comparison were it made by one of the mere mortals of this site.

I am about as aggressive as you will find in terms of enforcing a pace of play rule at a resort facility, and make no mistake, Streamson is a resort facility. Your early ventures where you meet up with various GCA types will give way to cporporate belt nothcers bragging about how many $40 shots of INSERT PREFERRED DRINK you were able to consume on the course.

What is the average pace at Bandon?

[Jason Topp]

Greg & Howard,

It seems that Streamsong is attractive to, and intends to attract, the serious "golfer", not the casual or novice golfer.
To me it seems that their target market is golfers who belong to or play regularly at courses north of Streamsong.

Having played three rounds in 3:00, I don't see why you're stating that 3:30 isn't possible.

No rough, no abundance of trees, wide fairways, caddies/forecaddies and very few long green to tee walks, would seem to help.
(# 7 to # 8 Blue is a significant exception)

Water does create an impediment to fast play.

As to daylight, Sreamsong is as far west as Ohio, so they probably get an extra half hour or more of light vs NYC.

4:30 will significantly dampen the fun factor and hurt the bottom line.

If tee times are ten minutes apart and groups take 11 minutes to play each hole, that's a 3 hour and 20 minute round.
Is that rushing ?  Why isn't that possible ?

13 minutes per hole is still less than 4 hours.
Why isn't that possible ?

If you were at Pine Valley and the starter told your group that play was in no more than 3.5 hours, would you play in less than 3.5 hours ?

Ken Bakst made the effort to change the culture of golf (for the better) at a private club.
What would be wrong with Streamsong trying to change the culture of golf at a golf resort, a serious golf resort.

I know, that knowing rounds are 3.5 or less at Streamsong would make Streamsong far more attractive to me.

Tom Doak,

Agreed, I previously mentioned that the logistics won't work for dual nine starts, which makes pace of play more important.

As I  stated earlier, I loved both courses and favored the Blue.
Playing in under 4 hours makes the Streamsong experience even more fun.
Playing in Notre than 4.0 will detract from that experience.
With those wide fairways, there's no reason why golfers with caddies/forecaddies should take more than 3.5.

I always wondered, if they had it to do over, whether PV would have introduced an 18 hole short course, or a full 18 hole executive course, or another full 18 hole course.   I suspect that Streamsong might go through the same exercise.

The same

As a destination resort, with little else available, second rounds become an important part of the Sreamsong experience

I chuckle wondering how you would attack the Pine Valley comparison were it made by one of the mere mortals of this site.

I am about as aggressive as you will find in terms of enforcing a pace of play rule at a resort facility, and make no mistake, Streamson is a resort facility. Your early ventures where you meet up with various GCA types will give way to cporporate belt nothcers bragging about how many $40 shots of INSERT PREFERRED DRINK you were able to consume on the course.

What is the average pace at Bandon?

I dont know but judging from the New Yorkers I played through today loaded down with cigars and beer and betting $50 per shot it is faster than in Cabo. Different clientele caused mainly by the requirement to walk and the difficulty of travel.

[Brian Finn]

I played both courses at Streamsong in a single day in mid-February.  I had a great time, preferring the Blue slightly over the Red (6 to 4 in the 10 round test).   I had the pretty unique luxury of being the first group out on both courses that day (the Red did not open until 11am), so played both rounds in under 3hrs 10 mins. 

I agree that Streamsong will likely draw a large % of their play from more serious golfers, perhaps partially mitigating the pace of play issue.  I also agree that it should be reasonable for all groups to play in under 4hrs, particularly if caddies were mandatory to help keep things moving.  Unfortunately, I am skeptical that it will be accomplished, especially once the hotel opens. 

With 228 rooms (216 hotel, 12 clubhouse), at 60% to 80% capacity, with 1.5 golfers per room...you would have between 205 and 275 golfers per day.  So, it takes a minimum of 4 hours to get all golfers onto the course.  On the low end of this spectrum, you would be able to get roughly 3/4 foursomes around 36 fairly comfortably with the remaining 1/4 playing fewer (likely only 18) holes.  As occupancy rises, two golf courses would start to feel pretty crowded.  In either case, I believe pace of play would be challenging to maintain. 

I like the idea of a short course.  It could be used as a warm-up for players arriving late afternoon or for those groups not fortunate to get one of the day's first tee times.  It could also be a nice second (or third) round after lunch or in the evening. 

I don't do any of this for a living, so this could all be off base, of course.  That said, my prediction is that there will be a third full 18 on site within 2-3 years.  Having been to Streamsong already in its infancy, I hope it thrives and follows the Bandon model however possible and applicable.  I found it to be a pretty special place.

[Bill_McBride]

Greg & Howard,

It seems that Streamsong is attractive to, and intends to attract, the serious "golfer", not the casual or novice golfer.
To me it seems that their target market is golfers who belong to or play regularly at courses north of Streamsong.

Having played three rounds in 3:00, I don't see why you're stating that 3:30 isn't possible.

No rough, no abundance of trees, wide fairways, caddies/forecaddies and very few long green to tee walks, would seem to help.
(# 7 to # 8 Blue is a significant exception)

Water does create an impediment to fast play.

As to daylight, Sreamsong is as far west as Ohio, so they probably get an extra half hour or more of light vs NYC.

4:30 will significantly dampen the fun factor and hurt the bottom line.

If tee times are ten minutes apart and groups take 11 minutes to play each hole, that's a 3 hour and 20 minute round.
Is that rushing ?  Why isn't that possible ?

13 minutes per hole is still less than 4 hours.
Why isn't that possible ?

If you were at Pine Valley and the starter told your group that play was in no more than 3.5 hours, would you play in less than 3.5 hours ?

Ken Bakst made the effort to change the culture of golf (for the better) at a private club.
What would be wrong with Streamsong trying to change the culture of golf at a golf resort, a serious golf resort.

I know, that knowing rounds are 3.5 or less at Streamsong would make Streamsong far more attractive to me.

Tom Doak,

Agreed, I previously mentioned that the logistics won't work for dual nine starts, which makes pace of play more important.

As I  stated earlier, I loved both courses and favored the Blue.
Playing in under 4 hours makes the Streamsong experience even more fun.
Playing in Notre than 4.0 will detract from that experience.
With those wide fairways, there's no reason why golfers with caddies/forecaddies should take more than 3.5.

I always wondered, if they had it to do over, whether PV would have introduced an 18 hole short course, or a full 18 hole executive course, or another full 18 hole course.   I suspect that Streamsong might go through the same exercise.

The same

As a destination resort, with little else available, second rounds become an important part of the Sreamsong experience

I chuckle wondering how you would attack the Pine Valley comparison were it made by one of the mere mortals of this site.

I am about as aggressive as you will find in terms of enforcing a pace of play rule at a resort facility, and make no mistake, Streamson is a resort facility. Your early ventures where you meet up with various GCA types will give way to cporporate belt nothcers bragging about how many $40 shots of INSERT PREFERRED DRINK you were able to consume on the course.

What is the average pace at Bandon?

I dont know but judging from the New Yorkers I played through today loaded down with cigars and beer and betting $50 per shot it is faster than in Cabo. Different clientele caused mainly by the requirement to walk and the difficulty of travel.

You're at Cabo or Streamsong?  You know Streamsong has lots of carts, right?   The clientele may not be that different if you can ride at both places.