Forget about the train, it might have been the

[Patrick_Mucci]

oldest, strongest lure in the world that brought George Crump to be familiar with the land at Pine Valley..................

A woman.

Virginia Ireland.

Virginia Ireland was a divorced single woman who lived on her estate overlooking Timber Lake, adjacent to Pine Valley, where she entertained the rich and powerful. 

So writes J.E. Souders in her recent book on Pine Valley, "Pine Valley Golf Club"

Could it be that Crump visited Virginia at her estate and thus further familiarized himself with the property that he would eventually buy ?

Seems more likely than riding on a speeding train in the morning or evening in the dark in December.

Maybe he took the train to visit Virginia, and that's where the myth began.

[Lester George]

I like this theory.  All great things come from passion?

Lester

[Bryan Izatt]

I assume this is the book you are referring to - Pine Valley Golf Club 100 Years of Mystery at the World’s No. 1 Golf Course by J. E. Souder.

http://blogs.courierpostonline.com/golf/2012/10/24/pine-valley-a-peak-behind-the-mystique/

Based on the blog it is clear that she missed the definitive source of PV information - that being being the collective us.  Clearly if she had read MacWood's opinion piece she would have known that there was no mystery about how he died.  And, Virginia Ireland was known to some of us from a couple of years back, although again, the author was not aware of the discussions here or she would know that Virginia Ireland didn't start Pine Valley.

As to your hypothetical new "myth", I think you're still lost in the trees (or was that  a forest), although the press reported that PV was part of her estate. Hopefully the mother looked better than the daughter.  





  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

Never underestimate the power of P.

And, remember, there's no accounting for chemistry.

What's unattractive to one person, is attractive to another.

I'd have to imagine that the social circles Virginia and George traveled in had them cross paths.
In addition, the equestrian connection would seem to lend further credence to familiarity.

If George was visiting Virginia, in addition to his hunting the property, perhaps he rode it with her and gained additional familiarity.

It sure makes more sense than a speeding train in the dark/dawn/dusk in December

[Bill Shotzbarger]

I really need to read the entire MacWood piece. Only several paragraphs in I have realized that Crump and I have more in common than I originally thought... 

[Ronald Montesano]

P cubed

[Jeff_Brauer]

Patrick,

If you are correct, then I assume the next PV "myth" to fall would be that he slept in that cabin on site.  Heck, I would be across the tracks in one of the 30 bedrooms, maybe even hers!  And, I might even be forced into building a world class golf course to cover up  the deed and make it look good in polite society.......

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

Agreed, the comfort of a mansion and all that comes with it, would seem preferable to a tent/cabin

[Lester George]

The thing that Jackie Souders seems to have uncovered and highlighted is when George Crump began at PV he was not exactly out in the woods in the middle of nowhere which has been part of the story produced by some of the history writers of PV. As Jackie points out Clementon was a vibrate and rather famous recreation park community back then and of course Virginia Ireland's immense farm and mansion immediately across the railroad tracks from PV was very well known in the social circles Crump and his friends traveled in. The Ireland farm was big in the equestrian world and a few of the Irelands were some of the original pioneers with flying (when Virginia's daughter married her honeymoon consisted of she and her new husband piloting all over the country together and sometimes in separate airplanes). The farm had a landing strip on it as well as its own RR station (Sumner Station, before the stop was eventually renamed Pine Valley. Virginia Ireland's maiden name was Sumner). Jackie Souders has also uncovered some evidence that Crump had a girlfriend at that time so he may not have been squiring the widow Ireland. However, Tillie was definitely a man of many facets so perhaps he was squiring Virginia Ireland at that time. Some think when passing the site Tillie saw Virginia standing at the station, and when she saw him she blew him a kiss------so he told his friend George to look in the other direction into what is today PVGC.

Lester

[Dan Kelly]

My grandfather was what you might call an entrepreneur, who started a bunch of businesses through the years (a few successful, but not usually for long).

His last, I think, was the Kiddie Gym company, which manufactured swingsets and slides and teeter-totters and the like in a small town in Wisconsin, where my grandfather bought (or built) a house along the Flambeau River.

We grandkids never did figure out how our grandparents' marriage worked -- only that it didn't work, and that it never ended even though Grandpa wasn't around much (or at all) after awhile.

A few years ago, my younger sister happened to be passing through that small town in Wisconsin, Ladysmith, so she dropped in to the local historical society. I can't remember if she said there was some mention of the Kiddie Gym company, or not, but either way, she asked the curator: "Kiddie Gym was my grandpa's company. He lived in Minneapolis. Do you have any idea why he put his factory here?"

The guy said: "Could've been a woman?"

Isn't it always a woman?

[Rich Goodale]

Good story, Dan!

My great grandfather TT Goodale was an entrepreneur too, but ended up life a bit down on his luck, so he cut a deal with his son (my grandfather PA) to stay at his house in exchange for 1/2 of his paycheck each month.  TT gave PA $200/month until he died, after which my grandfather eventually learned that his paycheck was in fact $800/month and he was keeping a woman in Boston the whole time.  TT died age 74......

Rich

[Mark McKeever]

Do we have any old aerial images that show this incredible mansion and property???

Mark

[Mark McKeever]

I can see the actual mansion on historicaerials.com!!   If anyone is interested search for Clementon NJ using 1940 images!

You can clearly see the property and the gardens north of the train tracks with a little road that leads you right down to the entrance of PV.  Pretty awesome find Pat.

Mark

PS. Sadly, it looks like the mansion is long gone in today's maps...Even looks gone by 1950's..

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

Think about it.

She was single, socially prominent, he was widowed, socially prominent and lived about 13 miles away.

He used to hunt and ride the property that became PV.

Would you rather spend the night in the mansion with all its benefits or in the woods with the critters and bugs ?

It's a no brainer for me, with or without P.

[Bill Shotzbarger]

So I finished reading MacWood's piece. Loved it.

Does anyone have any online resources regarding the completion of holes 13-17 and how they got the grass to grow? MacWood's history of PV doesn't say much after Crump dies, which make sense since it is a biographical piece.

I have Finegan's book but it's at my mother's house which 250 miles away. And the topic came up briefly at the Philly GCA lunch a few weeks ago but I can't remember much of what was said.

[Mark McKeever]

Mark,

Think about it.

She was single, socially prominent, he was widowed, socially prominent and lived about 13 miles away.

He used to hunt and ride the property that became PV.

Would you rather spend the night in the mansion with all its benefits or in the woods with the critters and bugs ?

It's a no brainer for me, with or without P.

Agreed.  Very cool.

Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

So I finished reading MacWood's piece. Loved it.

Does anyone have any online resources regarding the completion of holes 13-17 and how they got the grass to grow? MacWood's history of PV doesn't say much after Crump dies, which make sense since it is a biographical piece.

I have Finegan's book but it's at my mother's house which 250 miles away. And the topic came up briefly at the Philly GCA lunch a few weeks ago but I can't remember much of what was said.

Bill,

I think TEPaul and Wayne Morrisson had access to letters referencing the grassing of PV.
I think you could access those references if you can find some of the old PV threads.