Steep banks – meaningful weapon for the GCA or menace to the maintenance staff?

[John Chilver-Stainer]

I’ve been playing golf recently on a pre war course where greens were cut into the inclinations and on the  lower side there is  a steep embankment. The grass has to be cut by hand.

Advantages for the GCA are less cut and fill, less footprint to disturb and also, which is more my point, an alternative recovery shot – the “whack it into the bank” shot which rises nearly vertically and lands softly on the green.

Other advantages for the GCA are dramatic topographic contrast especially when highlighted by low sunlight and shadows.

Here’s one I lifted from the Church Stretton review

[Jon Wiggett]

Steep banks – meaningful weapon for the GCA or menace to the maintenance staff?

or maybe both John.

I think a lot of the courses here in the Highlands are much the better for steep slopes and I know countless modern designs which are flat and boring.

Jon

[David Harshbarger]

Looks like the maintenance crew is on the job in that photo, but could use a little direction.

That whack into the hillside shot is a nervy one, but great fun when pulled off.

[Jonathan Mallard]

Yes - to both.

[Sean_A]

The example above has the advantage of four legged grass cutting!  Its a bloody tough par 3, about 200 uphill to a small green - the slope of the hill doesn't move to the left nearly as much as it looks.  One excellent (out of shot) aspect of this hole is vegetation to the lower left of green that sheep don't seem keen on.  So misses to the left will roll a bit, but not 50 yards a away.  I wonder if sheep are really only attracted to the "tended" areas of turf and will forego the fern bits?  I have seen this natural break in slopes to hold up balls that would roll forever before. 

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

JCS,

The ODG's, especially CBM, SR & CB introduced steep banks on almost all of their designs and they were not only able to be maintained, but, they've survived, intact, after 100 years.

Understanding the maintenance issues, I would hope that GCA won't be dumbed down to the point that maintenance dictates design.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

 I agree Jon, just think of Royal Dornoch or another one that comes to mind, the 6th at Strathpeffer.

Pat, good call, particularly Raynor, however the steep bank round the green is seldom used by modern architects.

Why? Probably modern GCA’s prefer to design green surrounds to suit sit-on mowing machines and keep the maintenance staff happy.

An exception would be Pete Dye’s Whistling Straights.

One of my favourite examples of using the “whack it in the bank” shot is from the back of the Road Hole on the Old Course.

On one of my rounds I had deliberately played into the Road  Hole bunker, which I followed by “deliberately” hitting to the path behind the green.
The next shot not only required the “whack it in the bank” strategy but also to hit the ball with the opened up leading edge of my sand wedge. I delivered a quarter swing stab and the ball bolted towards the bank, whacked it, sprung up in the air, and landed softly on the green near the hole.
A moment of ecstasy.

It would be a pity if this type of shot should be made obsolete purely to satisfy ease of maintenance.

[Doug Siebert]

I tried to play a 7i at a pin directly over the Road Bunker from the wispy left rough on my last visit, even though I knew my odds of success were almost non-existent, just for the challenge.  I couldn't have hit it better or landed it in a better spot, but of course it dribbled off the back and ended up on the blacktop.  I chipped a 4 iron off the road into the bank to a foot from the hole for an easy par, to the approval of the small crowd of onlookers.  If that was thick grass on the bank, I wouldn't have had a shot...not like you can hit a flop off asphalt!  Well, maybe Phil can

[Jim Nugent]

I tried to play a 7i at a pin directly over the Road Bunker from the wispy left rough on my last visit, even though I knew my odds of success were almost non-existent, just for the challenge.  I couldn't have hit it better or landed it in a better spot, but of course it dribbled off the back and ended up on the blacktop.  I chipped a 4 iron off the road into the bank to a foot from the hole for an easy par, to the approval of the small crowd of onlookers.  If that was thick grass on the bank, I wouldn't have had a shot...not like you can hit a flop off asphalt!  Well, maybe Phil can

In the 1995 Open Championship, Rocca hit a similar shot on the 71st hole to save par.  Then of course he holed that monster put through the Valley of Sin to tie Daly.

Daly's shot out of the Road Hole bunker on his 71st hole is one of the most spectacular I've ever seen. 

[Thomas Dai]

If the maintenance crew can keep a steep bank in proper condition without endangering themselves in doing so then steep banks/run-offs provide for so much variety and imagination in recovery shot making. If the crew have to stand at the top or part-way up a steep bank and lower a hand mower on a piece of rope - which I've seen done - then it's time to think again.

Just one great example of a steep slope around a green - Foxy 14th at Royal Dornoch.

All the best

[Ian Larson]

JCS,

The ODG's, especially CBM, SR & CB introduced steep banks on almost all of their designs and they were not only able to be maintained, but, they've survived, intact, after 100 years.

Understanding the maintenance issues, I would hope that GCA won't be dumbed down to the point that maintenance dictates design.

Exactly, form over function. Who cares if its a menace to the maintenance crew to maintain.

[Doug Siebert]

How is lowering a mower via a rope endangering the grounds crew?  So long as no one is below it, the worse that happens is the rope breaks and the mower possibly gets damaged.  How is the guy on top risking any injury?  There's a frat house in town with a 20 foot slope that's easily over 45* where I have seen the residents doing this every summer since I was a kid.  Not risky for them, but probably a bit risky for the four lanes of traffic immediately (and I do mean immediately) below

If someone made a very light mower specifically for this purpose, using a rechargeable lithium-ion battery that powered a small electric motor, perhaps using fishing line rather than a blade like a weed whacker does (but covering a wider swath) guys could slowly walk down the slope with this thing to mow it without needing to use ropes, and without disabling the blade stop safety device that all mowers should have these days.  Surely there is some solution to this, other than letting all steep slopes grow rough.

[David_Tepper]

The lightweight "Flymo" hover mowers certainly make maintaining those steep banks a little easier.

http://www.flymo.com/uk/products/lawn-mowers/

At Royal Dornoch, it is interesting that the grass on some of the banks is kept very short, pretty much at fairway height, and kept longer on some of the other banks.  

[Jon Wiggett]

JCS,

The ODG's, especially CBM, SR & CB introduced steep banks on almost all of their designs and they were not only able to be maintained, but, they've survived, intact, after 100 years.

Understanding the maintenance issues, I would hope that GCA won't be dumbed down to the point that maintenance dictates design.

Exactly, form over function. Who cares if its a menace to the maintenance crew to maintain.

Ian,

what in Pat's post justified such a response? Of course greenkeepers should not be endangered but it should not be the main concern of GCA to make the greenkeepers work as simple as possible but rather the course as interesting to play as possible whilst being maintainable with in the greenkeepers abilities.

Jon

[Thomas Dai]

I prefer not to write harshly but in this instance I feel I must. To be quite blunt, I have to say I find Doug’s response to be both offensive and sickening and I for one would certainly not like to be employed on a maintenance crew if people with this kind of attitude were my superiors or were on the green committee or were the clubs owners. As to Ian’s “Who cares if its a menace to the maintenance crew to maintain” comment, well let's just say I'd like to think it was meant in jest as blackhumour.

I also do not wish to see course design, as Pat so nicely phrases it, “dumbed down to the point that maintenance dictates design” but I also do not wish to see any maintenance crew get injured while undertaking their jobs. Make, as Jon so nicely says, “the course as interesting to play as possible whilst being maintainable within the greenkeepers abilities”.

Thanks for highlighting the availability of the lightweight Flymo David, perhaps now it’ll be the hover-flymo that’s full of eels rather than the hover-craft!

All the best.

[Ian Larson]

JCS,

The ODG's, especially CBM, SR & CB introduced steep banks on almost all of their designs and they were not only able to be maintained, but, they've survived, intact, after 100 years.

Understanding the maintenance issues, I would hope that GCA won't be dumbed down to the point that maintenance dictates design.

Exactly, form over function. Who cares if its a menace to the maintenance crew to maintain.

Ian,

what in Pat's post justified such a response? Of course greenkeepers should not be endangered but it should not be the main concern of GCA to make the greenkeepers work as simple as possible but rather the course as interesting to play as possible whilst being maintainable with in the greenkeepers abilities.

Jon

It's the Superintendent and maintenance crews job to adapt to their courses needs in keeping it maintained to how it's designed. But that's not the same as saying a course shouldn't be designed with minimizing maintenance costs in mind. A course is designed first and foremost it's members and paying customers. Not to make the Superintendents life easy. Form versus function, in this case I feel the form should dictate function. If one guy says it can't be maintained, he can be replaced by someone who can. For every Super who says he can't, there are dozens and dozens behind him that will.

[Bill_McBride]

If the maintenance crew can keep a steep bank in proper condition without endangering themselves in doing so then steep banks/run-offs provide for so much variety and imagination in recovery shot making. If the crew have to stand at the top or part-way up a steep bank and lower a hand mower on a piece of rope - which I've seen done - then it's time to think again.

Just one great example of a steep slope around a green - Foxy 14th at Royal Dornoch.

All the best

Followed, if I recall correctly, by the steep false front of the 15th hole that follows.   Talk about two completely different par 4's one after the other!

[Patrick_Mucci]

JCS,

The ODG's, especially CBM, SR & CB introduced steep banks on almost all of their designs and they were not only able to be maintained, but, they've survived, intact, after 100 years.

Understanding the maintenance issues, I would hope that GCA won't be dumbed down to the point that maintenance dictates design.

Exactly, form over function. Who cares if its a menace to the maintenance crew to maintain.

Ian,

what in Pat's post justified such a response? Of course greenkeepers should not be endangered but it should not be the main concern of GCA to make the greenkeepers work as simple as possible but rather the course as interesting to play as possible whilst being maintainable with in the greenkeepers abilities.

Jon,

Why don't you learn to READ correctly.

IAN posted the comment in RED, NOT ME.

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ian,

Maintenance issues can't be ignored, but, "maintenance" should dictate design.

One only has to look at NGLA to see that steep banks can be properly and safely maintained.
NGLA has passed the ultimate test, the test of time.

They've been doing so for over 100 years.

Ditto Shinnecock

In fact, if you'll look at most CBM/SR/CB courses you'll see that the pronounced design features have been adequately maintained for close to a century, proving that where there's a will and a budget, there's a way.

[Doug Siebert]

I prefer not to write harshly but in this instance I feel I must. To be quite blunt, I have to say I find Doug’s response to be both offensive and sickening and I for one would certainly not like to be employed on a maintenance crew if people with this kind of attitude were my superiors or were on the green committee or were the clubs owners. As to Ian’s “Who cares if its a menace to the maintenance crew to maintain” comment, well let's just say I'd like to think it was meant in jest as blackhumour.

I also do not wish to see course design, as Pat so nicely phrases it, “dumbed down to the point that maintenance dictates design” but I also do not wish to see any maintenance crew get injured while undertaking their jobs. Make, as Jon so nicely says, “the course as interesting to play as possible whilst being maintainable within the greenkeepers abilities”.

Thanks for highlighting the availability of the lightweight Flymo David, perhaps now it’ll be the hover-flymo that’s full of eels rather than the hover-craft!

All the best.

Thomas,

I'm genuinely mystified as to what I said that you found offensive.  I guess I must be ignorant of the risks of doing something like lowering a mower via rope, which I admit I've never done personally, but it seems like gravity guarantees no injury to the person doing the lowering so long as he's up top on level ground.  I personally wouldn't have any problem doing such a thing on my own property if it required it, but luckily my steep slopes are only about 8 or 9 feet so rather than being forced to use a rope I can hang it over the edge from the top with one hand to get the top half, and shove it up to about head level from the bottom to get the bottom half.  My mower has a safety that cuts power and stops the blade almost instantly if I let go of it, so if I slipped I might get a few bruises at worst.

As for the rest of your comments, do not worry, I am not nor will I ever be in charge of a maintenance crew, a member of a greens committe, or an owner of a golf course, so any ignorance I may be displaying about the safe operation of mowing equipment will never harm anyone except possibly myself.

[Jon Wiggett]

JCS,

The ODG's, especially CBM, SR & CB introduced steep banks on almost all of their designs and they were not only able to be maintained, but, they've survived, intact, after 100 years.

Understanding the maintenance issues, I would hope that GCA won't be dumbed down to the point that maintenance dictates design.

Exactly, form over function. Who cares if its a menace to the maintenance crew to maintain.

Ian,

what in Pat's post justified such a response? Of course greenkeepers should not be endangered but it should not be the main concern of GCA to make the greenkeepers work as simple as possible but rather the course as interesting to play as possible whilst being maintainable with in the greenkeepers abilities.

Jon,

Why don't you learn to READ correctly.

IAN posted the comment in RED, NOT ME.

Jon

Patrick,

Why don't you bother to learn to read correctly?

If you bothered to you would see that I was replying to Ian's post which is why HIS name starts my response and not yours.

Jon

[Thomas Dai]

Doug,

Thanks for your thoughts. My apologies if I came back a bit strong. I know a maintenance crew man who was standing on a flat spot at the top of a high steep bank using a mower on a rope. For whatever reason, he slipped and both he and the mower ended up in a heap at the bottom of the slope. He now has a shoulder that doesn't function properly and never will. As a consequence he is no longer able to perform the duties he once did and his life has changed quite a bit as well, so I guess you can now see how my position has developed on such a matter.

Bill,

Great point regarding the 14th and 15th at Royal Dornoch. I guess that's why so many of us appreciate Royal Dornoch so much.

JCS,

Good call about that wonderful alternative recovery shot – the “whack it into the bank” - the shot which rises nearly vertically and lands softly on the green. A great play when it's firm and fast and bouncy. As young kids without lob-wedges we just kinda executed that shot without much real thought, now, with less firm and fast conditions and 60* and 64* degree wedges available youngsters would probably have to be shown how to play it. A shame.

All the best

[Jon Wiggett]

Thomas,

I am not commenting on the specific case you mention. The reason for not dangling a mower on a rope is that you are tying the 'dead man's handle' shut so the mower will not stop in the case of an emergency. However, H&S is often used as an excuse to stop all sorts of practices that in themselves are not inherently dangerous.

The recent case of banning triangular flapjacks at a school shows the dangers of the H&S mindset in many institution. Triangular flapjacks are not dangerous but the throwing of them is yet what this ruling does is not to say don't throw but rather it is NOW safer to throw them in this new form. Surely it would be better to prevent the throwing of them but then how?

Slopes and banks are the ultimate and most useful design feature that a GCA has yet it is so often underused by GCAs and disliked by players.

Jon

[Tom_Doak]

One only has to look at NGLA to see that steep banks can be properly and safely maintained.
NGLA has passed the ultimate test, the test of time.

They've been doing so for over 100 years.

Ditto Shinnecock

In fact, if you'll look at most CBM/SR/CB courses you'll see that the pronounced design features have been adequately maintained for close to a century, proving that where there's a will and a budget, there's a way.

Patrick:

You have to admit, Macdonald and Raynor were both very good at choosing clients who could afford to maintain WHATEVER features they built.

Those steep grass banks that they built (and that Mr. Dye built) are expensive to maintain, and are not for every course.  And there is probably a guy somewhere missing a toe from trying to keep them to your standards.

[Jeff_Brauer]

The supers I deal with almost prefer the steep bank bunkers to the flash sand cape and bay type.  There is less sand to shovel after a rain, you can plan to mow those banks, rather than have it occur at unscheduled rain intervals, and always at the worst times....., and you can use growth retardants to reduce mowing even further.  Lastly, I have seen some pretty steep banks mowed by machine these days, either on a 4 wheel drive sidewinder type, or if not CBM deep, by conventional mower with the outside reels hanging down over the edge from the top.

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