Best non-links or heath in GB&I?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Which courses then, from those nominated so far, are the few that are actually worth a major detour or a special trip for a visitor?

My choices from those courses nominated (not in any specific order) would be -

5 from list 1 - best GB&I courses from any age that are non-links or heathland -

West Sussex/Pulborough - why? - because you guys say it's worth playing - or is it disqualified for being heathland?
Huntercombe - seen it up close and because you guys say it's worth playing
Blackwell - played it already and want to play it again and again and again and again
Southerndown - seen it up close and because my mates and you guys say it's worth playing
Little Aston - because you guys say it's worth playing

5 from list 2 - best GB&I built since circa 1990 with potential to be “world-class” or "great" in 100 years’ time (again, non-links, non-heath) -

There is quite a bit of wishful thinking here given the high green-fee prices £$£$ and/or the exclusivity but nevertheless here's my 5 -

Queenwood - why? - to see what it's like and experience the sheer exclusivity
The Grove - because several mates say it's worth playing and that the conditioning is quite outstanding
Remedy Oak - because I've read loads of web etc reviews that all say it's terrific - or is it disqualified for being a heathland?
Skibo Castle - because I've looked closely at it and it appears to be wonderful and some locals I've met who've played it are full of praise - or is it disqualified for being either a links or a heathland?
St Andrews Castle - because of it's really, really wicked green contouring

All the best

Pulborough and Skibo surely have to be disqualified....

Old Head should be included if we are considering The Castle Course (both are valid)... But neither are true parklands - it's those that interest me because those are the ones we have to directly compare with Augusta, Oakmont & Merion...

So personally, I'd like to see Blackwell because there's a few vouching for it... Plus it's by my man Simpson...

[Paul_Turner]

Woburn the Dukes and Duchess are basically woodland, the Dukes has a small portion that is more parkland in feel.  There used to be a small heather patch behind 2nd green (members hole order, not tournament).

Duchess is all woodland,  there are only a few very small patches of heather on the Duchess (1st tee shot, fronting 3rd green and a small patch or two near 15 and 18 greens).  Marquess is woodland/parkland.

Tandridge was always downland but now has a more parkland feel.  I don't think there was ever much heather, perhaps a small patch on the 5th.

Thorndon Park iin Essex is a very good parkland, way better than say Olton which is so over planted.

As the name suggests "Moor Park" was once a mixture but now is really just parkland. Good courses there, but need some help with their bunkers which added much character.

I like Leckford a fine downland 9 holer and how about Newbury and Cookham it may once have been heath but now it's wooded.

Royal Belfast is good eneough too.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Woburn the Dukes and Duchess are basically woodland, the Dukes has a small portion that is more parkland in feel.  There used to be a small heather patch behind 2nd green (members hole order, not tournament).

Duchess is all woodland,  there are only a few very small patches of heather on the Duchess (1st tee shot, fronting 3rd green and a small patch or two near 15 and 18 greens).  Marquess is woodland/parkland.

Tandridge was always downland but now has a more parkland feel.  I don't think there was ever much heather, perhaps a small patch on the 5th.

Thorndon Park iin Essex is a very good parkland, way better than say Olton which is so over planted.

As the name suggests "Moor Park" was once a mixture but now is really just parkland. Good courses there, but need some help with their bunkers which added much character.

I like Leckford a fine downland 9 holer and how about Newbury and Cookham it may once have been heath but now it's wooded.

Royal Belfast is good eneough too.

I've still to see the Royal Belfast / Belvoir Park / Malone trio which are at the very top of my list for this year in that order.

Is Ken Kearney doing work at Belvoir at the moment - I think Frank had been talking to them at the time. Perhaps he knows the extent of what is going on up there?

Ally

[Paul_Turner]

Ally

You'll like them, although I've only seen a small portion of Malone and it looked like it needed a good trim.  Belvoir is super, Johnny maybe can fill us in one what they plan to do...I think Ken is going to be careful. 

Belfast is a little cramped but there are many shining holes with typical classic Colt/Harris features and shaping....I wish they'd left the fine 2nd alone.

Simpson's Cowdray Park is one I've wanted to see for a while...try holding the 15th green!  I can't recall anyone profiling it here on the DG.

http://www.cowdray.co.uk/golf-club/the-course/gallery/

[Rich Goodale]

A useless fact that is sort of tangentilly relevant here, as it shows how difficult it is to classify all these courses.


Dornoch with it's gorse and (some) heather is not technically  links.


It is mostly that very rare land classified as Coastal Heath.


No need to thank me.

Tony

By your definition, the Old Course and just about every links course that I know are also "not technically links."  Have you mistakenly planted some sensimilla in your greenhouses?

Rich

[Tony_Muldoon]

A useless fact that is sort of tangentilly relevant here, as it shows how difficult it is to classify all these courses.


Dornoch with it's gorse and (some) heather is not technically  links.


It is mostly that very rare land classified as Coastal Heath.


No need to thank me.

Tony

By your definition, the Old Course and just about every links course that I know are also "not technically links."  Have you mistakenly planted some sensimilla in your greenhouses?

Rich

As Mr  S. Alec also responded above, my initial "fact" was just a little less than 100% accurate, and several Civil Servants will no doubt lose their heads over this.  It's not in the Price book on Scotland’s Courses nor in my book on the Heaths, so where the idea came to me from is now a complete mystery. But not put off by a lack of facts, let’s see if we can get the EU behind the idea of paying us all to study the sad  decline of the Coastal Heath (a real category btw but apparently confined more to Dorset, Devon and Somerset which even I know are not in Scotland).  I envision our studies involving the three of us walking this terrain many times whilst on expenses and hope to have an initial report on TOC and Dornoch ready by 2050. It would be discrimination not to include Scotland in our studies. (I think I’m onto something here and let’s just hope Salmond doesn’t get North Britain kicked out of the source of the funding).

[Sean_A]

Well, I guess I asked two questions... The first was the best courses from any age that are non-links or heath...

But I commented that 100 year old courses can seem to take on a natural evolution of their own through drainage, water courses, maintenance practices and topdressing that can turn a course initially on crap soil in to a firm and fast beauty... Even if we don't have anything in GB&I to compare to an Augusta or Merion.

So I wondered about the moderns - particularly parklands - that might evolve in to better courses in the future?... I'd immediately strike off the three Archerfields, Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart from that list because of seaside settings, generally good soil and a links style... I'd leave Queenwood on because although it's aiming at heathland through its planting of heather, gorse and fescues, it was built on farmland like the two courses at Foxhills next door...

My favourite modern in Ireland is probably Adare (Trent Jones) because I think the routing works perfectly beautifully by placing tees right next to previous greens - It is a surprisingly easy walk for a monster-modern. I also like Nicklaus's new course at Killeen Castle  .

3.5 years later...and nothing much has changed.  Modern Parkland, only Bearwood Lakes (of that I have played) springs to mind as a contender for top 100/get better over time....but Bearwood is far from a great course so I expect there are few other good candidates out there...probably Loch Lomond or Queenwood.

Best non-links/heath?  As seen above the definition varies depending who you talk to, but my take is

Gleneagles Kings...clearly not a links or heathland...awesome course...current work makes it even better...lets hope the Queen's get a treatment

Kington...see above, but not quite so awesome as GK...plus...the course has been around 90 years without being ranked...so I don't expect that to change

Ganton...I believe this to be as much links as anything, if not, heathland, so I would discount it, but if folks want to say Ganton is sue generis thats okay by me

Sacred 9...I can't in earnest call this a heathland course..and it is great...if it is never ranked its down to stupidity  ...still, stupidity often carries the day

Castle Course...faux links, but thats a far cry from links...I see this course getting better and better so it may be the exact fit for what you are asking Ally...in the right hands and with enough money...I can see this course being great one day

Little Aston...always used as a classic parkie example...certainly a strong contender for top 100 GB&I...great?  It would take a Dunlop White to make that happen

Southerndown...as the name implies, its a downland course and a very good one at that...certainly a strong contender for top 100 GB&I, but I doubt its ranked now...I don't see that changing

Addington...not sure what this course is...feels 100% parkie to me, others may disagree...huge potential and should be unquestionably a great course now...needs a Dunlop White

Huntercombe...to me this is a downland course filled with trees, but as with Kington...if it ain't ranked now I don't see anything much happening on this front in the future unless trees are whacked

Blackwell...classic parkie which is slowly being revamped...I see this course improving and could possibly hit the top100 some day, but I struggle to think it will ever reach greatness

Cavendish...for me this is a bottom feeder top 100, but nobody else agrees...I don't see that position changing

Knole Park...see Cavendish

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Thanks for bumping this thread, Sean.

Not surprising that Chart Hills received only a couple of passing mentions but I do think it's quite good, though overbunkered.

There's a handful of very good holes that make it worth a visit, though being sandwiched between the London heaths and Kent coast I doubt many here would ever spend a day to see it, and probably rightly so if time is limited.

The driveable par four 6th below:

[Niall C]

Scott

Thanks for posting that photo. Let's imagine that turf was laid over the sand in that fronting bunker, and that the trees and bushes were all levelled, the cart path dug up and the tee to green grass cutting largely left to a flock of sheep such that the mowing lines were not at all obvious. Would we have a modern day Cleeve Cloud or Minch Old ?

Niall

[Niall C]

Bumping this thread to see if I can get some comment on my post above. I would have copied Scott's photo and started a separate thread but that's beyond my technical abilities. So, serious question, take away the, cart path, sand and multiple forms of vegetation and more or less reduce it to grass cut/grazed to the same height so that you highlight the landform, would this be a modern day Minch Old/Cleeve Cloud ?

Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Niall,


It would seem that the basic terrain, even with the modifications you mention, is just too smooth. Not irregular enough, not necessarily needing quarries and several thousand year old defensive earthworks etc, but just not irregular enough. Big machines versus no machines? Or is this the process you mean by 'modern day' version?


Atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

Niall,


It would seem that the basic terrain, even with the modifications you mention, is just too smooth. Not irregular enough, not necessarily needing quarries and several thousand year old defensive earthworks etc, but just not irregular enough. Big machines versus no machines? Or is this the process you mean by 'modern day' version?


Atb

I think you can do it but you need to shape in a way that old quarries got created. Near vertical slopes of up to 2 metres in height can be created by just tracking and pressing things out. Shaper's sometimes over-shape, they like things smooth and the top soiling can smooth enough sometimes, their work can be much rougher. The D6 may be great for primary shaping and for fairways but sometimes machines can be too big as well as too small, excavators even mini excavators can all play their part, but the real art is knowing when it is done and ready and walking away. It really needs an architect on site every day. Tony Ristola eluded to this several years ago when he built the course in Poland, he got a nice look to it and Johnathan Davidson did some nice work in Slovakia, it looked old, as does Mr Doaks, C & C, Hanse. I did a good job on our Stranahan but the two times I was away for a couple of months it is not so good, excuses are no good though a good crew on the ground and someone watching every day with ability to make instant decisions like "It's finished, don't do anything else" is what is needed in my opinion.

[Sean_A]

I'm sure you would call Delamere Forest a parkland.  How would you classify Beau Desert?

Both are definitely heathland courses

Little Aston is the best of the parkland type I have seen in England.  But my favourite by a long shot is Cavendish.

Sean,

You must have caught Reddish Vale on a bad day. Most would consider it at least the equal of Cavendish.

You need to return and have your mind changed a la Sherwood Forest!

OK Duncan, now what do you think of Cavendish V Reddish Vale?

Sorry, I used you as a conduit to bring this good thread back up.

BTW, Beaverbrook needs a mention. I haven't seen a better proper parkie in England.

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

I'm sure you would call Delamere Forest a parkland.  How would you classify Beau Desert?

Both are definitely heathland courses

Little Aston is the best of the parkland type I have seen in England.  But my favourite by a long shot is Cavendish.

Sean,

You must have caught Reddish Vale on a bad day. Most would consider it at least the equal of Cavendish.

You need to return and have your mind changed a la Sherwood Forest!

OK Duncan, now what do you think of Cavendish V Reddish Vale?

Sorry, I used you as a conduit to bring this good thread back up.

BTW, Beaverbrook needs a mention. I haven't seen a better proper parkie in England.

Ciao

I don’t think that is much between them. Cavendish gets all the plaudits and publicity but Reddish Vale is seriously under-rated. Almost any of RV’s holes would be among the best on most suburban parklands. I appreciate the quality more now that my visits are less frequent.


It will be interesting to learn the views of pests at this year’s BUDA!


As for non heath/links, JCB must be in the reckoning for the best. Have you been there yet, Sean?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Yes JCB is a notable addition since this thread started. Looking forward to seeing it.

[Adam Lawrence]

I'm sure you would call Delamere Forest a parkland.  How would you classify Beau Desert?

Both are definitely heathland courses

Little Aston is the best of the parkland type I have seen in England.  But my favourite by a long shot is Cavendish.

Sean,

You must have caught Reddish Vale on a bad day. Most would consider it at least the equal of Cavendish.

You need to return and have your mind changed a la Sherwood Forest!

OK Duncan, now what do you think of Cavendish V Reddish Vale?

Sorry, I used you as a conduit to bring this good thread back up.

BTW, Beaverbrook needs a mention. I haven't seen a better proper parkie in England.

Ciao

Beaverbrook is on chalk down, fwiw.

[Sean_A]

I'm sure you would call Delamere Forest a parkland.  How would you classify Beau Desert?

Both are definitely heathland courses

Little Aston is the best of the parkland type I have seen in England.  But my favourite by a long shot is Cavendish.

Sean,

You must have caught Reddish Vale on a bad day. Most would consider it at least the equal of Cavendish.

You need to return and have your mind changed a la Sherwood Forest!

OK Duncan, now what do you think of Cavendish V Reddish Vale?

Sorry, I used you as a conduit to bring this good thread back up.

BTW, Beaverbrook needs a mention. I haven't seen a better proper parkie in England.

Ciao

I don’t think that is much between them. Cavendish gets all the plaudits and publicity but Reddish Vale is seriously under-rated. Almost any of RV’s holes would be among the best on most suburban parklands. I appreciate the quality more now that my visits are less frequent.


It will be interesting to learn the views of pests at this year’s BUDA!


As for non heath/links, JCB must be in the reckoning for the best. Have you been there yet, Sean?

I too think RV is under rated, but it's not in the class of Cavendish. The awkward routing near the end of RV with the horrible 18th is an example of the quality difference.

I haven't played JCB. The faffing about aspect of an invite and paying a stupid fee has put me off.

Ciao

[Sean_A]

I'm sure you would call Delamere Forest a parkland.  How would you classify Beau Desert?

Both are definitely heathland courses

Little Aston is the best of the parkland type I have seen in England.  But my favourite by a long shot is Cavendish.

Sean,

You must have caught Reddish Vale on a bad day. Most would consider it at least the equal of Cavendish.

You need to return and have your mind changed a la Sherwood Forest!

OK Duncan, now what do you think of Cavendish V Reddish Vale?

Sorry, I used you as a conduit to bring this good thread back up.

BTW, Beaverbrook needs a mention. I haven't seen a better proper parkie in England.

Ciao

Beaverbrook is on chalk down, fwiw.

Yes, Beaverbrook is a bit chalky, but feels overwhelmingly parkie to me.

Ciao