Best non-links or heath in GB&I?

[Ally Mcintosh]

In Ireland, we have about 50 links courses. Some of these are great and compete on a world scale.

We have at most a few quasi-heathland courses built on sandy soil. The best of these (and my favourite inland course in the country) is Carlow.

The rest are generally parkland style courses built on heavyish soil. None of these compete with the very best of their kind around the world despite there being some excellent courses both old and new. Although this is often to do with a modern, pre-determined design style, it would be entirely unfair to lay the blame only there. The simple answer is that Ireland is about the coast. Anyone who spends a lot of time driving through the midlands will realise that it is composed of mainly flattish and wet arable land or bog not particularly conducive to world-class golf.

In England, the heaths always top out as the only world class inland courses. Which leaves the parklands. The best of this variety that I have played is probably Little Aston. Which begs the question which other ones are there? I love the look of Delamere Forest from the photos – would that be considered parkland?

Also, there is no doubt in my mind that classic parklands have the advantage of age when considering the natural evolution of the site’s drainage. So which of the modern builds may be considered to be “world-class” or "great" in 100 years’ time?

Ally

[Sean_A]

Ally

Even Little Aston has a heathy feel when compared to the London variety - the turf is every bit as good and drains better than most heaths I have come across.  Right now the club is cutting back trees and it looks like they are trying to grow more heather.  I always thought the distinction between some heath, parkland and moorland was rather arbitrary.  Still, sticking to the traditional definition, Little Aston is probably the best of the parkland type I have seen in England.  But my favourite by a long shot is Cavendish.

Ciao 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally

Even Little Aston has a heathy feel when compared to the London variety - the turf is every bit as good and drains better than most heaths I have come across.  Right now the club is cutting back trees and it looks like they are trying to grow more heather.  I always thought the distinction between some heath, parkland and moorland was rather arbitrary.  Still, sticking to the traditional definition, Little Aston is the best of the parkland type I have seen in England.  But my favourite by a long shot is Cavendish.

Ciao 

Yet to see Cavendish though I do have a good friend who is a member. Plus there's no doubt it is on heavy soil.

Have you a favourite modern, Sean?

[Sean_A]

Favourite modern?  I am struggling to think of modern parkland I have played!  Probably the best I have seen is Bearwood Lakes.  It is maligned quite harshly on this site, just as is The Belfry, but both are good courses - I think Bearwood is a bit better because of a good set of greens.  I will probably get laughed at, but my favourite modern parkie is The Stranahan at Players Club.  A very interesting course that I think over time will improve. 

For two older parkies, Prestbury & Blackwell are quite good.  In fact, properly restored and in good nick, Blackwell is the best parkie I have seen in England.  Even in the state it is in now, anybody interested in architecture should stop in for a look.  I also think Edgbaston could be outstanding with serious tree clearance and some loving bunker work.  Harborne and Oxford too are quite good.

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

Huntercombe isn't really heath - that'd score quite highly for me. Gleneagles King's - that's moorland rather than heath, but it might as well be heath. Chart Hills is pretty high on the modern list for me - I think I would take that (just) over Bearwood, which I also like. Loch Lomond obviously, though it doesn't belong in a UK top 20, where it often ends up, for my money.

[Bill_McBride]

I'm sure you would call Delamere FOREST a parkland.  How would you classify Beau Desert?

[Scott Warren]

How would Ganton be classed? Is it either heath or links?

[Sean_A]

I'm not sure I would call Huntercombe or Delamere parkies - which again brings up the trouble of labels. 

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

I'm not sure I would call Huntercombe or Delamere parkies - which again brings up the trouble of labels. 

Ciao

Isn't there a down land category?   What is that?   Which courses?

[Adam Lawrence]

I'm not sure I would call Huntercombe or Delamere parkies - which again brings up the trouble of labels. 

Ciao

I agree - and the fact that you can get clay-based heath like Walton makes it even harder!

[Adam Lawrence]

I'm not sure I would call Huntercombe or Delamere parkies - which again brings up the trouble of labels. 

Ciao

Isn't there a down land category?   What is that?   Which courses?

Downland means chalk-based. Southerndown and Goodwood would be the best known, but Worthing is good too.

[Thomas Dai]

Inland courses on heavyish soil? The Rolls of Monmouth would be my call - http://www.therollsgolfclub.co.uk/the-course/gallery/. Nice place IMO, not sure about it's playability throughout your average UK winter though, but lovely during the spring-summer-autumn.

It'll be interesting to see how some of the fairly recent premier UK new developments where serious £$£$ has been spent - like The Grove, The Oxfordshire and even the 2010/Celtic Manor or from Ireland the K-Club, Carlton House etc - are thought of in years to come. Also other new-ish courses like St Mellion, The Roxburgh, Loch Lomond, Chart Hills, Bowood, Close House, Slaley Hall, etc, etc.

BTW, weren't some of MacKenzies early courses north of Leeds built on heavy land?

Bill - Beau Desert would definitely be heathland. Southerndown in South Wales would be an example of a downland course.

We do have lots of categories don't we.

All the best.

[Bill_McBride]

Inland courses on heavyish soil? The Rolls of Monmouth would be my call - http://www.therollsgolfclub.co.uk/the-course/gallery/. Nice place IMO, not sure about it's playability throughout your average UK winter though, but lovely during the spring-summer-autumn.

It'll be interesting to see how some of the fairly recent premier UK new developments where serious £$£$ has been spent - like The Grove, The Oxfordshire and even the 2010/Celtic Manor or from Ireland the K-Club, Carlton House etc - are thought of in years to come. Also other new-ish courses like St Mellion, The Roxburgh, Loch Lomond, Chart Hills, Bowood, Close House, Slaley Hall, etc, etc.

BTW, weren't some of MacKenzies early courses north of Leeds built on heavy land?

Bill - Beau Desert would definitely be heathland. Southerndown in South Wales would be an example of a downland course.

We do have lots of categories don't we.

All the best.

What does it say about non-GCA golfers that they would pay heavy quid to play Celtic Manor and miss Porthcawl, Pennard and Southerndown?

[Adam Lawrence]

Inland courses on heavyish soil? The Rolls of Monmouth would be my call - http://www.therollsgolfclub.co.uk/the-course/gallery/. Nice place IMO, not sure about it's playability throughout your average UK winter though, but lovely during the spring-summer-autumn.

It'll be interesting to see how some of the fairly recent premier UK new developments where serious £$£$ has been spent - like The Grove, The Oxfordshire and even the 2010/Celtic Manor or from Ireland the K-Club, Carlton House etc - are thought of in years to come. Also other new-ish courses like St Mellion, The Roxburgh, Loch Lomond, Chart Hills, Bowood, Close House, Slaley Hall, etc, etc.

BTW, weren't some of MacKenzies early courses north of Leeds built on heavy land?

Bill - Beau Desert would definitely be heathland. Southerndown in South Wales would be an example of a downland course.

We do have lots of categories don't we.

All the best.

What does it say about non-GCA golfers that they would pay heavy quid to play Celtic Manor and miss Porthcawl, Pennard and Southerndown?

That pro golf is more influential than architecture for a large number of golfers, I think. Each to their own.

[Thomas Dai]

Bill and Adam,

You've hit a nail on the head here, although I've heard quite a bit of the play is actually corporate/society type golf rather than individuals paying hard cash from their own pockets. Mind you, quite a few of our premier links/heathland/downland/traditional clubs also make goodly amounts of money from corporate/society golf.

Fortunately as an individual you can play most classic or higher profile links, downland or heathland etc courses during the Nov-Mar period at lower prices. As most of these courses are on well draining land you can normally get a more than decent game as well. Also,with the English County Card scheme you can play some, although not all, of them for less during the rest of the year, plus by entering the clubs own open competitions you can play them for less from the back tees and you might even get a prize. Open weeks held at clubs seem to be particularly good value for £$£$.

Nice thread Ally, thanks for raising it.

All the best

[jeffwarne]

In Ireland, I really am a fan of Killarney Mahoney's point.
Enchanting, big scale,interest on the greens, timeless feel.
Also enjoyed Carlow quite a bit but that was 25 years ago, so I give the nod to Mahoney's, which I thought was better than ever on a recent visit.

Haven't played enough nonheath English golf to comment, and can't think of a Scottish inland course I've played that wasn't heath (Boat of garten Heath?)

[Mark Bourgeois]

Haven't played it but what about Loch Lomond? And while I'm asking questions who the heck is..."El Gringo"?

[Tom Culley]

I really like the Nicklaus course at St Mellion, if not the best, it is definitely one of the toughest non links or heathland you can play!


Edited because i'm an idiot.

[Adam Lawrence]

I really like the Nicklaus course at St Enedoc, if not the best, it is definitely one of the toughest non links or heathland you can play!

St Mellion, just before Sean worries that Jack has torn up one of his favourite links!

[Duncan Cheslett]

I'm sure you would call Delamere Forest a parkland.  How would you classify Beau Desert?

Both are definitely heathland courses

Little Aston is the best of the parkland type I have seen in England.  But my favourite by a long shot is Cavendish.

Sean,

You must have caught Reddish Vale on a bad day. Most would consider it at least the equal of Cavendish.

You need to return and have your mind changed a la Sherwood Forest!

[Adam Lawrence]

Haven't played it but what about Loch Lomond?

Magnificent clubhouse, lovely views and a nice but not great golf course. I suspect exclusivity has a part to play in its very elevated position in the magazine rankings.

I actually think Loch Lomond is very good indeed. Certainly the exclusivity helps it. But there are a number of really terrific holes there - two terrific short fours in 9 and 14, some excellent and very varied par threes - I love the green at the uphill eleventh.

I would class it as overrated - I don't think it's anything like the eighth best course in Scotland as top100golfcourses has it - but I think it's certainly a live contender for 'best UK course on crap soil' or whatever title we're assigning to this debate!

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Sean,
I agree with you 100% on Blackwell, which is certainly one of those courses that flies under the radar of most who are not raised or living in the Midlands.
Very fond memories for me there and always had great greens, as juniors we couldnt wait to play there and experience green speeds otherwise not known in the area.
Little Aston is a hybrid of Parkland and Heathland and another marvelous days golf.
Fulford in York is probably worth a mention not a great course, but worthy of a Doak 6 I think.

[Mark Chaplin]

Anyone played Goodwood? I thought we had a few good downland/chalk courses.

[Adam Lawrence]

I've played Goodwood a few times. I like it, it's a good example of a downland course and the facilities are terrific - especially good catering. Always a good day out. But it's not truly top drawer.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I've played Goodwood a few times. I like it, it's a good example of a downland course and the facilities are terrific - especially good catering. Always a good day out. But it's not truly top drawer.

I liked it as well.

I just felt that I was playing / walking uphill the whole time. All the height is lost in a couple of holes that have big drops.