Help needed identifying Perry Maxwell photos (Melrose now up)

[Ed Oden]

As some of you know, a large number of photographs from Perry Maxwell's personal collection were sold at auction awhile back.  I have identified most of them, but there are still some that I am struggling with.  So I'm going to start posting them here in hopes the treehouse can help.  First up is Augusta National.  You may recall that Neil Crafter previously asked for help identifying some other ANGC photos from the same collection.

The following two images are clearly, in my opinion, of the same hole based on the trees in the background.  Chris Clouser suspects this is the mound in front of the 17th green before Maxwell put in the two bunkers.  My only concern is that it looks like there is a fairway on the other side of the mound, which I'm not sure fits the 17th.






This one may be the same mound from the other side.  But, again, that would mean a fairway over there which I don't see fitting 17.  Perhaps back then they cut the entire grounds at fairway height, even areas out of normal play.




I'm pretty sure this next one is the 3rd hole.  The course map included in the early marketing booklet shows the creek extending in front of the 3rd tee.




Chris thinks this might be the 7th or 14th green.  Notice the bench in the near distance which presumably denotes a tee box.  




Don't know about this last one.




Once we get these identified, I will add photos from some other courses in subsequent posts.  In the meantime, thanks in advance for your help.  

[Will Lozier]

Ed,

Remarkable!  The humps in the first few make me immediately think of #8 but that's all I am going on. 

The third pic looks to me like the front of #14 or possibly #5 with it's wicked contouring.

I think you are spot on with #3...those three bunkers down the left are far more attractive than Nicklaus' current version!

I'll keep staring at these!

Cheers,
Will

[Sven Nilsen]

Here's an early aerial to help the cause:



For the first photo, I also think its the 17th, with the mound being on the left side of the green and the background showing the 8th hole as seen in this photo:

 

[Tom_Doak]

Ed:  Wow!  It amazes me what people come up with.

I think the first two pictures have to be the 17th ... in the second, background right, I think you've got to be looking through the trees and up the 18th toward the clubhouse.  But I have no idea whether the third picture (with the car in it) is also that hole or not.

I also think you've identified the 3rd hole correctly.

I have no idea about the green in the next to last picture.  It's up high somewhere, with a big view across the property out the back ... could it be #5?

Could the last picture be the first hole, showing the hazard on the inside of the dogleg and then the green beyond?  Hard to get the scale of it, but I can't think where there would be any other hole with a building off to the right of the hole.

[Ed Oden]

I have no idea about the green in the next to last picture.  It's up high somewhere, with a big view across the property out the back ... could it be #5?

Tom, when I first saw that photo I thought it was the 6th hole with the 5th in the background, but couldn't get it to fit.  Now your post has me thinking it might be taken from the far side of the course looking across the front of the 5th green with the 6th tee just beyond.  Not sure the course in the distance matches up though.

[Will Lozier]

Ed:  Wow!  It amazes me what people come up with.

I know Tom!...I meant the humps remind me of #8, the back left one in particular in the early pics I've seen.  Obviously #10 seemed like a ridiculous observation!  

[Sven Nilsen]

For the 3rd hole, this link has another early picture.  Not sold on this one yet.

http://03547c3.netsolhost.com/WordPress/2012/03/12/masters-countdown-third-hole/

[Mark McKeever]

I never knew hole 17 had such a large mound in front of the green.  Crazy!

Mark

[BCrosby]

My gueses:

1. - 17th
2. - 17th
3. - somewhere near 5th green
4. - I don't think this is ANGC
5. - view from right front to left front of 5th green.
6. - don't know unless picture is of the area behind 5th green (a corner of which you see far left?). The building and flat terrain in distance suggest a hole on that side of the course.
 
I think it possible that some of these are not of ANGC. What year were they supposed to be taken? At the time Maxwell made his changes in '38?

Bob

[BCrosby]

Another stab at the last pic. The area behind the 1st and 8th greens? Maxwell was scouting an equipment ingress/egress spot? Note the dirt path through the vegetation.

Bob

[Alex Miller]

The last one struck me as the 5th from the right side of the fairway immediately.

[Sven Nilsen]

Here's another view of the mound on 17 post addition of the bunkers:

[Stephen Britton]

Always amazes me how good/tight the turf looks in these early photos...

[Ed Oden]

Here is an enhanced image of the photo that I said was probably #3.



My thinking was that (i) the creek seems to match the location of the creek that crosses in front of the 3rd tee in some of the early maps of the course, (ii) the right to left slope, although more severe than expected, seems to generally fit #3, and (iii) I couldn't think of another spot on the course that came anywhere close to being a match.  The fairway bunkers on the left look more like the scheme today than as Mackenzie originally built.  But that might make sense if Maxwell added the bunkers.  On the other hand, I don't recall any mention of a right side fairway bunker and the background behind what I assume is the green in the distance doesn't look much like the photo of the 3rd green in the link Sven posted.  I still think it could be #3 but will admit that it might not be a photo of ANGC at all.

[Sven Nilsen]

Ed:

Looking at the aerial photos from that time, the width of the hole and the trees were what gave me the biggest pause.  I just can't wrap my head around that being the 3rd.  The bunker placement is also foreign from any early photos I've seen of the course.

The photos with the building were also very curious, although they appear to be two separate different buildings and probably two different locations on the course..  Made me think that there used to be a shed from the nursery near the clubhouse and that 3rd photo was taken up near 9/18 greens (the vista seems to fit something from the high point of the property).

Sven

[Ed Oden]

Sven, you may be right.  I agree the width isn't what I would expect.  But the general topography matches and the bunkers are not a concern for me.  Remember, we aren't talking about Mackenzie's original bunkers.  Maxwell was called in to redo certain greens and bunkers.  The bunkering scheme on the 3rd clearly changed at some point (just look at the before and after diagrams of the 3rd in Byrdy's book).  In fact, I think they bunkers (other than the one on the right) are remarkably similar to #3.

[Sven Nilsen]

Ed:

Here's a 1941 aerial to assist in the comparison:

[BCrosby]

The picture that some think is the 3rd is of a dramatically uphill hole heavily wooded on both sides, with a series of small bunkers on the left and other bunkers on the right.  

None of those things are true of the 3rd at ANGC (though it is slightly uphill), even pre-'38. The creek that once crossed the hole whould have been just off the front of the tee. Also the vegetation contains a lot more hardwoods than in the other pics.

I think the pic is mislabeled.

Bob

[john_stiles]

Woods on EACH side going up a hill, with the two aerials in hand and Byrdy's book on your lap,  the improved photo from Ed does seem mis-labeled if it is marked as Augusta National.

It wouldn't be the third at ANGC as the old aerials show a cleared area off the tee and one bunker. 

In Byrdy's book, he reiterates the passage from Owen's book that  MacKenzie wrote to Roberts saying that " I am delighted that Bob agrees that the [third] with one trap is all right. "

It really doesn't seem that the photo could be any of the uphill holes at ANGC.

[BCrosby]

Agreed John. To be clear, I don't think it is a picture of any hole at ANGC. Though wherever it was/is, it looks like an interesting hole.

Bob

[Tom_Doak]

I concur, the fourth picture can't be Augusta National.  For a second I thought it might be the 17th at Crystal Downs -- very narrow through trees, steep R-L slope -- but it isn't that, either, or there would be a hillside to the left holding up the landing area.  Can't think of any hole like that at Palmetto, either, so I'm stumped as to where it might be.

[Kevin Stark]

The vegetation would suggest somewhere in the southeast. Maxwell's work in North Carolina was around 1940, so perhaps it's one of those courses? My other thought was that perhaps this was a picture from a side trip to Augusta CC but to my knowledge there isn't a creek that would be in that position on any hole there.

[Ed Oden]

OK, I've been convinced.  The fourth photo is clearly not the 3rd hole and must be from a course other than ANGC.  My best guess is that it is a hole from another one of the courses in Maxwell's collection and simply misplaced with the ANGC photos.  I will provide a full list of the courses in the collection tonight in hopes that triggers an "Aha!" moment with someone.

It seems virtually certain that the fifth photo is looking across the front of the 5th green with the 6th tee just beyond and the 3rd hole in the distance.

I think we all agree that the first two pics are of the 17th green area.  

That leaves the third and last photos and I haven't seen anything convincing yet on those two.  The buildings would seem to be the key.  While the photos look like ANGC to me, I can't find any buildings on the old aerials that fit the bill.

Does anyone disagree with that analysis?

Thanks for all the input so far!

[Sven Nilsen]

Ed:

In the third photo, there appears to be a building off in the distance on the horizon.  Perhaps someone knows what multi-story buildings (the Bon-Air Vanderbilt, Forrest Hills Hotel?) were in Augusta at that time, which can help us identify the angle the photo is taken from.

Sven

[Edit:  I'm pretty convinced that photo is taken in a southwesterly direction with the Forrest Hills Hotel showing up on the horizon.  Is this the same mound from the first two pictures?]

[Jason Topp]

Is there any chance the 4th picture could be 10 shortly after or when the green was moved back?

I do not remember a creek or bunkers left but thought I would throw it out there.