What's with the Yardage at Streamsong Blue?

[Bryan Izatt]

I played it back in early January and again this week.  It was clear to me that some of the tees had been moved up.  For instance, on 14 the tees were all moved forward so that not so much of the lake needed to be cleared off the tee.  On the 7th, the black tee was at the silver tee yardage.  On 11, I was able to reach the green in two even into a quartering brisk wind.  At it's scorecard yardage, I shouldn't be able to get there even with my best shots.

I asked the caddie of the fellow I was playing with if all the tees had been moved up since January.  He said that they had been so as to make it a more enjoyable experience for the players.  He said the course never played to the scorecard yardages.  Was the yardage too much for the kind of golfers they've attracted so far?  Are they dumbing it down in response to negative comments?

As a peripheral thought, a group with two women went out before me and I wondered how they'd do with the forward tee yardage of 5531. I didn't get a chance to ask them.  If the yardage is correct, it is way too long for my wife.  It would be a killer for her, although she'd never agree to play there because of the price.  I seem to recall that Tom posted a comment recently that the forward tees were not well placed.  Given the way that the tees are just part of the continuous mowing of the fairways, surely the tees could easily be moved forward without any significant cost or disfiguration.

[Tom_Doak]

Bryan:

I think the daily setup was moved forward as a result of the Renaissance Cup.  We played in 20-mph winds most of the event, right from where the black tees are marked on the card, and there were several holes that played really difficult in the wind, even for the best players in the field.  I think they are trying to listen to feedback from guests, but maybe overdoing it a little bit.

My comments about the forward tees were only about three holes in particular, but we are revisiting the setup for all the forward tees as part of that process.  That said, trying to find a single yardage for the forward tees that addresses every player's needs is pretty difficult.  This is where it's good to have some customer feedback, and get a sense for what sort of women golfers are coming out to play.  We may have erred on the long side, but at least the design of the course and the open fronts to all of the greens allows the ladies to have a chance to knock the ball close with their longer clubs.  If there is demand for a shorter setup, as you say, there is plenty of short grass to which the tees can be moved up.

[Jud_T]

6700 on the card plus wind is too much golf course for most players.  I've got no problem with it as I'd probably gravitate to the Silver tees anyway (6300) at my age although most guys are too macho to make that call.  Didn't the client push for a longer course?

[Austin Wade]

I do think the Blue course plays at quite a bit longer than it appears by just glancing at the scorecard.  When we arrived, we just looked down at the numbers, saw that the Black fell into the distance we normally played, and decided on that.  There are a number of short holes (1,5,6 and 13, plus a couple others are shorter than average), and the flip side of that, there are some very lengthy holes.  With 2 450 yard par 4's on the back, as well as the beastly 17th, there were a number of holes that were quite a bit lengthier than you would normally see on a course that measures 6700 yards.  We both agreed we would play Silver if we were playing again, or maybe a hybrid of the 2 would be perfect. 

This is not a complaint about the course at all, I love to see the variations in the par 4's, but I do think it is important to give the scorecard a second look before starting your round.  I am sure if we had wisely used a caddy he would have brought this to our attention prior to our round.

[Michael Whitaker]

There are a lot of shots on the Blue that play uphill or into slopes. Collectively, all these uphill shots make the course play longer than its measured yardage. If the turf wasn't so firm and fast it would be a real brute for most players.

[Mike Sweeney]

There are a lot of shots on the Blue that play uphill or into slopes. Collectively, all these uphill shots make the course play longer than its measured yardage. If the turf wasn't so firm and fast it would be a real brute for most players.

Well we need to have lunch or I need to get back to SS. I felt the exact opposite about the Red and the Blue. 

[William_G]

yardage and tees is a problem at almost all golf courses

[Josh Tarble]

Honest question, how would SS do if no blocks were put out at all?

I get it for most courses but has a truly public course ever not put out blocks?

[JC Urbina]

Bryan,

My daughter played the forward tees on the Red course and loved it.  You can't please everyone but on that particular day it was perfect for her especially with the constant breeze blowing.  My caddie was Brandon and he offered suggestions to both of us all the way around the course.

People are so stuck on yardages, just play what feels right.

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan:

I think the daily setup was moved forward as a result of the Renaissance Cup.  We played in 20-mph winds most of the event, right from where the black tees are marked on the card, and there were several holes that played really difficult in the wind, even for the best players in the field.  I think they are trying to listen to feedback from guests, but maybe overdoing it a little bit.

My comments about the forward tees were only about three holes in particular, but we are revisiting the setup for all the forward tees as part of that process.  That said, trying to find a single yardage for the forward tees that addresses every player's needs is pretty difficult.  This is where it's good to have some customer feedback, and get a sense for what sort of women golfers are coming out to play.  We may have erred on the long side, but at least the design of the course and the open fronts to all of the greens allows the ladies to have a chance to knock the ball close with their longer clubs.  If there is demand for a shorter setup, as you say, there is plenty of short grass to which the tees can be moved up.

Tom,

I guess the reason it struck me was that based on one previous plays off the black tees with a very light SE breeze, I came back to a day that was cool with a 15 - 20 mph north wind.  Based on wind and temp I decided to play mostly the silver tees thinking that it was going to be a killer in the wind from the blacks.  I was a bit surprised to find that many of the silver tees were not far back from the forward tees.  The silvers on #1 and #7 were down the hill, so I played the blacks on those.  The yardage overall for the silver tees was probably under 6000 yards.  I have no regrets over the tee decision, it provided a different experience, but it was surprising. I understand that you don't have any say about the day to day setup of the course. 

As to the forward tees,I understand that there is no one good yardage.  The current forward tees are probably fine for moderate to good females and that is likely what most of the female players that go there will be, so it probably works fine.  For most women I would guess that a yardage around 4500 - 4800 would be ideal (what does Alice say?).  Which three holes are you considering?  Certainly you could shave 100 yards off of 17 and it'd still be a tough hole for most women golfers.  For my wife's demographic, it is something like a a forced march par 8 at its current yardage (a slap to the side of your head with a wet noodle for this one).

Maybe my thinking is a bit skewed, but even looking at the first hole, you have me playing the tips from the top of a mammoth hill from 338 yards while the women get a 40 yard head start playing uphill from the bottom of the hill.  The two holes are in no way comparable in the way they would be played.  As a short par 4 opening hole, it would make more sense to me if the holes was 200 yards from the forward tee.

I guess it'll depend on whether there turns out to be demand as you say; whether the course will turn out to be for the posh luxury resort sometime golfers or for more serious players - men and women. Time will tell.

[Bryan Izatt]

6700 on the card plus wind is too much golf course for most players.  I've got no problem with it as I'd probably gravitate to the Silver tees anyway (6300) at my age although most guys are too macho to make that call.  Didn't the client push for a longer course?

Jud,

My experience in 3 rounds is that the course plays shorter than the listed yardage both because the tees are forward a bit and it plays fast and firm, unlike many FL courses.  I'm guess the blacks were probably closer to 6400 - 6500 yards than 6700 as currently set up.  Out of the blocks the maintenance regime is great.  For the Blue course I think wind is more of an issue if it is out of the east or west as the course plays mostly east - west.  In a strong north wind, the only hole that played really more difficult was the 8th and the short 5th.  Of course, the cross-winds can also be a challenge, but it's not really a yardage issue.

A mixed black - silver tee setup on the card might be helpful.

[Bryan Izatt]

There are a lot of shots on the Blue that play uphill or into slopes. Collectively, all these uphill shots make the course play longer than its measured yardage. If the turf wasn't so firm and fast it would be a real brute for most players.

Mike,

The tee shots on 1, 2, 5, 7, 8, 12, 15, and 17 are all downhill.  The tee shots on 3, 4, 10, and 13 are relatively flat.  The tee shot on 6 is modestly uphill but the hole is short.  The tee shot on 9 is abruptly uphill off the tee but is level or downhill in the landing area and the rest of the hill is downhill.  Eleven is slightly uphill and flat in the landing area.  Fourteen is a bit uphill.  Sixteen is definitely uphill.  On second shots, 3 is modestly uphill, 4 is uphill, 6 is downhill, 8 is slightly uphill, 9 is downhill, 11 is flat, 12 is flat, 13 is a bit uphill, but very short, 14 is uphill, 15 is flat, 17 is uphill and 18 is way downhill.  Collectively I think the downhills outweigh the uphills.  Obviously we live in inverse universes.   

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

My daughter played the forward tees on the Red course and loved it.  You can't please everyone but on that particular day it was perfect for her especially with the constant breeze blowing.  My caddie was Brandon and he offered suggestions to both of us all the way around the course.

People are so stuck on yardages, just play what feels right.

Jim,

How good a player is your daughter?  My wife would be considerably older and probably a less able player.  But, I'm sure she would enjoy the experience (ignoring the $) none-the-less.  She just enjoys the experience more when she has some chance at bogey on any given hole.  And, even as a casual golfer, she feels that she's cheating if she tees it up forward of the forward tees when I suggest that.

Agreed on your last point.  Most of us when coming to a new course make a tee decision based on yardage or rating and slope.  It's only afterward that we know whether it felt right.  The black tees felt right with a warm light SE breeze.  The silvers didn't feel right (too short) in a cool northerly breeze.  All useful input if and when I go back. 

[Tom_Doak]

As to the forward tees,I understand that there is no one good yardage.  The current forward tees are probably fine for moderate to good females and that is likely what most of the female players that go there will be, so it probably works fine.  For most women I would guess that a yardage around 4500 - 4800 would be ideal (what does Alice say?).  Which three holes are you considering?  Certainly you could shave 100 yards off of 17 and it'd still be a tough hole for most women golfers.  For my wife's demographic, it is something like a a forced march par 8 at its current yardage (a slap to the side of your head with a wet noodle for this one).

Maybe my thinking is a bit skewed, but even looking at the first hole, you have me playing the tips from the top of a mammoth hill from 338 yards while the women get a 40 yard head start playing uphill from the bottom of the hill.  The two holes are in no way comparable in the way they would be played.  As a short par 4 opening hole, it would make more sense to me if the holes was 200 yards from the forward tee.

Bryan:

Sometimes, the topography means there just won't be a great place to put a forward tee.  #1 Blue is a good example of that.  It's a cool hole from the top of the hill, but anywhere between there and 175 yards from the green, it's going to be blind and intimidating.  We don't mind a bit putting the tee markers out in the fairway for the forward-most tee on occasion, but everyone objects if we put them on an upslope as you'd almost have to on #1.

The 17th is one of the three holes that's really in need of a more forward tee.  Building the cross-bunkers was a tough choice; most people have complimented me on them and think it's one of our very best par-5 holes, and yet, that same choice made sure the hole plays VERY difficult for women.  But on my last walk-through before grassing I did identify a place for a forward tee way up on the left side, and for whatever reason, it got missed on the scorecard.

If we used the same logic for women's yardages that we used for men's in the current thread, we would have to abandon the 30-yard gap between holes as too much -- you'd have a 510-yard hole on one end and a zero-yard hole on the other.  If we reduced the gaps to 20 yards for women, and started at 100 yards, the course for women would look like this:

Par-3's - 100 - 120 - 140 - 160 - 180
Par-4's - 200 - 220 - 240 - 260 - 280 - 300 - 320 - 340 - 360
Par-5's - 380 - 400 - 420 - 440

And that would be 4,860 yards.

I actually did specify a 200-yard par-4 for women at Streamsong (#16 Blue), but that would leave them with only the three par-3 holes instead of the five shown above.  I honestly can't recall seeing a 200-yard par-4 for women anywhere else.  What I hate worse than anything is when architects cram all the forward-tee yardages around the same length ... so that every par-3 is 110 to 125 yards, and every par-5 is 410-430.

[Bryan Izatt]

Tom,

Thanks for taking the time to give a thoughtful response.  I know I'm probably beating a dead horse here, but it is an issue for people like me who want to play great golf courses and want to do it from time to time with wives who are not average golfers, but like to  and enjoy playing none-the-less. Some thoughts on your points below.

As to the forward tees,I understand that there is no one good yardage.  The current forward tees are probably fine for moderate to good females and that is likely what most of the female players that go there will be, so it probably works fine.  For most women I would guess that a yardage around 4500 - 4800 would be ideal (what does Alice say?).  Which three holes are you considering?  Certainly you could shave 100 yards off of 17 and it'd still be a tough hole for most women golfers.  For my wife's demographic, it is something like a a forced march par 8 at its current yardage (a slap to the side of your head with a wet noodle for this one).

Maybe my thinking is a bit skewed, but even looking at the first hole, you have me playing the tips from the top of a mammoth hill from 338 yards while the women get a 40 yard head start playing uphill from the bottom of the hill.  The two holes are in no way comparable in the way they would be played.  As a short par 4 opening hole, it would make more sense to me if the holes was 200 yards from the forward tee.

Bryan:

Sometimes, the topography means there just won't be a great place to put a forward tee.  #1 Blue is a good example of that.  It's a cool hole from the top of the hill, but anywhere between there and 175 yards from the green, it's going to be blind and intimidating.  We don't mind a bit putting the tee markers out in the fairway for the forward-most tee on occasion, but everyone objects if we put them on an upslope as you'd almost have to on #1.

I get your point.  I was thinking far right by the bunker, but honestly don't remember if it was any more level over there.  I don't think the uphill would be all that intimidating.  It's uphill from the current tee anyway.  And for players like my wife, most of their distance is on the ground anyway; in this case it just gets to the ground sooner and rolls less, but as long as the hole is suitably short there is some hope of getting there in two.

The 17th is one of the three holes that's really in need of a more forward tee.  Building the cross-bunkers was a tough choice; most people have complimented me on them and think it's one of our very best par-5 holes, and yet, that same choice made sure the hole plays VERY difficult for women.  But on my last walk-through before grassing I did identify a place for a forward tee way up on the left side, and for whatever reason, it got missed on the scorecard.

I too think the hole is a brilliant par 5 as designed.  One of the best anywhere I've played.  A tee far down the left side near the lefy side bunker would give a 350 yard par 5 where it would be possible, with a good drive to get near the bunkers and then hit a good 7 iron over the bunkers leaving a long third.  This hole is challenging for the men and I have no trouble with it being challenging for the short hitting women too.

If we used the same logic for women's yardages that we used for men's in the current thread, we would have to abandon the 30-yard gap between holes as too much -- you'd have a 510-yard hole on one end and a zero-yard hole on the other.  If we reduced the gaps to 20 yards for women, and started at 100 yards, the course for women would look like this:

Par-3's - 100 - 120 - 140 - 160 - 180
Par-4's - 200 - 220 - 240 - 260 - 280 - 300 - 320 - 340 - 360
Par-5's - 380 - 400 - 420 - 440

And that would be 4,860 yards.

I actually did specify a 200-yard par-4 for women at Streamsong (#16 Blue), but that would leave them with only the three par-3 holes instead of the five shown above.  I honestly can't recall seeing a 200-yard par-4 for women anywhere else.  What I hate worse than anything is when architects cram all the forward-tee yardages around the same length ... so that every par-3 is 110 to 125 yards, and every par-5 is 410-430.

The 16th would make an interesting 200 yard par 4.  I don't think that having only 3 par 3's is that big an issue; par 73 is fine.  What's at issue is the total length.  She once played Royal Dornoch at a par of 76 with 8 par 5's and 5900 yards.  She has politely declined to go back.  Par really isn't that big an issue.  On most courses she plays, par is just a dream anyway given the lengths that holes are currently configured at. 

If you want to see a 200 yard par 4 you should take yourself up to Cabot Links.  Rod did an interesting job of placing forward, forward tees that produced a course of 3733 yards on a par of 70.  He has par 4's that are 175, 195, 203, 211 and 220 yards.  The seem close together in yardage but 10 to 20 yards is a big difference to players of my wife's caliber.  And since each hole was on different topography they play even more differently that the yardage would suggest.  Three of the par 3's were under 100 yards where a 10 yard difference can actually mean a one or two club difference. All of this in no way detracted from a pretty interesting men's course.

IIRC, the last time I was at Pacific Dunes, they also had forward tees that were around or under 4,000 yards, but I could be wrong on that.

 

[Bill Brightly]

Hole 17 is an extremely good, tough par 5. I'm just curious about which way the prevailing wind blows.

In my first round, I hit my best drive of the week into the wind and a great 3 wood leaving 130 into the wind, a perfect spot to play from. We won't discuss the third shot, but a chip from back right is scary as hell because of the huge downslope on the front-left portion of the green. My putt from off the green almost stayed up. The putt from in front of the green is also really tough...

The second time I hit a good drive, but got nervous about carrying the center bunker (and the right side has too many problems to consider...) so I hit it over the left bunker and reached the waste area mound. No good there.

Last round was stormy and with the wind, hit a decent drive but then a low hooked 3 wood, into the cross bunker.

Great hole that tests your endurance at the end of a round! You simply have to stay focused and hit three really good golf shots.

[Bryan Izatt]

Bill,

I don't think there is a prevailing wind.  Orlando has winds that are frequently (but not prevailing) from the east (into the 17th) but Orlando isn't Streamsong, although it should be similar.  Tom has previously said that it was frequently out of the west (I think) during construction.  In my two visits, it was once out of the SE and once out of the N.  It just adds to the variety.

[Tom_Doak]

If you want to see a 200 yard par 4 you should take yourself up to Cabot Links.  Rod did an interesting job of placing forward, forward tees that produced a course of 3733 yards on a par of 70.  He has par 4's that are 175, 195, 203, 211 and 220 yards.  The seem close together in yardage but 10 to 20 yards is a big difference to players of my wife's caliber.  And since each hole was on different topography they play even more differently that the yardage would suggest.  Three of the par 3's were under 100 yards where a 10 yard difference can actually mean a one or two club difference. All of this in no way detracted from a pretty interesting men's course.

IIRC, the last time I was at Pacific Dunes, they also had forward tees that were around or under 4,000 yards, but I could be wrong on that.

Bryan:

Oh, okay, you are not talking about forward tees now ... you are talking about the way-forward "light blue" tees we set up at Old Macdonald, which Mr. Keiser then took to Cabot.  For me, that's another topic entirely.  I don't mind them much; when you build a course that's nearly all fairway, like Streamsong, it is pretty easy to find places to put the markers way way forward.

But, I am curious (light blue)  ... do those tees at Cabot have a course rating and slope, and does your wife care if they do or not?

I ask because as is well documented here, I am growing tired of every player in golf thinking they need their own perfect tee.  If it weren't for the rating and slope, your wife could go out and play from as far forward as she wanted, as my wife will do on the rare occasions she plays.  But my wife doesn't give a damn if there is a course rating or if I've "built" tees just for her, because she doesn't take golf seriously at all.  I wish more people would take it less seriously.

[jeffwarne]

If you want to see a 200 yard par 4 you should take yourself up to Cabot Links.  Rod did an interesting job of placing forward, forward tees that produced a course of 3733 yards on a par of 70.  He has par 4's that are 175, 195, 203, 211 and 220 yards.  The seem close together in yardage but 10 to 20 yards is a big difference to players of my wife's caliber.  And since each hole was on different topography they play even more differently that the yardage would suggest.  Three of the par 3's were under 100 yards where a 10 yard difference can actually mean a one or two club difference. All of this in no way detracted from a pretty interesting men's course.

IIRC, the last time I was at Pacific Dunes, they also had forward tees that were around or under 4,000 yards, but I could be wrong on that.

 I am growing tired of every player in golf thinking they need their own perfect tee.  If it weren't for the rating and slope, your wife could go out and play from as far forward as she wanted, as my wife will do on the rare occasions she plays.  But my wife doesn't give a damn if there is a course rating or if I've "built" tees just for her, because she doesn't take golf seriously at all.  I wish more people would take it less seriously.

Not just their own perfect tee, but their own perfect tee on every hole,and that driveable holes be driveable for them from exactly their tee, and par 5's be reachable for them from their perfect tee, which exists, but that requires them to play a different color tee than they've chosen to be "perfect" on the other 17 holes.

It's really very simple .
Pick the tees (or area of the fairway to tee off from) you want and guestimate what the course rating would be by using the CR's and slopes of the different combined tees you play.
people play mulligans. take gimmes, don't know the rules, play winter rules, drop balls, make 10's on holes yet use equitable stroke control, and then freak out because the combo tees they want to play don't have an exact freaking slope and expect one to be created and worse yet be crammed onto an already overpacked scorecard of infinite tee combinations.
It's OK to take it seriously, just use some common sense rather than forcing someone else to do your thinking for you.

[Bryan Izatt]

Tom,

Do I detect a small looking down the nose at those who might enjoy a way-forward light blue tees.  

At Cabot Links they are called Royal Blue (much nicer sounding) and they do indeed have a rating and slope for both men and women (60.9 and 97).  And, no, my wife could care less about ratings and slopes.  She isn't ever going to play competitive golf of any kind, she has a non-conforming driver and she grounds her club in bunkers, but so what?  Are there to be tees only for "serious" golfers.  

I don't disagree about the proliferation of tees.  

But, there are a lot of demographics out there that are interested in a fun (not frustrating) non-competitive golf experience.  I guess Mike Keiser gets that and throws out the light and royal blue tees to attract or retain the short hitting demographic.  Perhaps Mosaic - Streamsong is not targeting that demographic and that's OK with me.  As to getting my wife to tee it up somewhere randomly closer to the green on some holes, she has pride and figures that it is cheating and embarrassing to go ahead of where the tees are.  Not unlike all those men who are too proud to move up to tees more suitable to their abilities.

[Tom_Doak]

As to getting my wife to tee it up somewhere randomly closer to the green on some holes, she has pride and figures that it is cheating and embarrassing to go ahead of where the tees are.  Not unlike all those men who are too proud to move up to tees more suitable to their abilities.

THAT is the real problem here, not the fact that there aren't eight tees on every hole.  Golfers -- especially beginners -- should be made much more comfortable to play from wherever it suits them. 

But, I guess they like it better when they have a tee set up so they can make an occasional par or birdie, even though the rule book suggests that a 180-yard hole is not really a par-4 for anyone.

P.S.  60.9 ?  So a 36-handicapper should still have a shot at breaking 100.  I guess I can relate to that.  Crystal Downs has tees for kids that are perfect ... just a disk at a flat spot on one side of each fairway.  Being a member club, they don't require tee markers to locate the tee visually, and they aren't on the scorecard, and don't have a rating as far as I know, but they have been very effective at encouraging more family members to get out and play.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Haven't read most of this thread, but at it's core isn't the tee issue a concession to the concept that all levels of golfers should be "entitled" to make par ?

Played the green without much wind the first day, the blacks the next two days with good wind and both my 14 year old son and I felt comfortable in doing so.

Bill Brightly,

I think # 17 is a great hole in that the second shot almost always presents you with a dangerous, challenging decision.
I find it to be a "true" par five in that three consecutive good shots are required.
Playing short of the cross bunkers leaves one with a very challenging approach.

[Carl Rogers]

Tom Doak,

Haven't read most of this thread, but at it's core isn't the tee issue a concession to the concept that all levels of golfers should be "entitled" to make par ? ....

Isn't the point to enjoy yourself and keep your frustration level in check?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Haven't read most of this thread, but at it's core isn't the tee issue a concession to the concept that all levels of golfers should be "entitled" to make par ? ....

Isn't the point to enjoy yourself and keep your frustration level in check?

No, that's not the point.

The object  is to get the ball from point "A" to point "B" in as few strokes as possible.

That challenge is sometimes enjoyable and sometimes frustrating, and sometimes both.
 

[paul cowley]

Excuse me but I'm reading all this commentary and just shaking my head...good God, we're in for different times...oh boy!

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