How good is Pasatiempo? How good was it?

[Bart Bradley]

Bart...

Rather than focusing on where you would rank the course among the world's elite courses, I'd like to ask a different set of questions.

Regarding Pasatiempo, would you recommend a student of golf course architecture visit Pasa?  Why or why not?

Is there anything in the ground as Pasa that offers something unique to the game of golf/golf course design?

Mac:

Of course I recommend seeing Pasatiempo.   It is a good walk and has some truly great holes.  I do believe that the routing of the back nine around the baranca is beautifully done and unique. 

As to number 10, it was playing into a quartering stiff wind.  Well struck driver followed by solid 3 wood for me and I am not a particularly short hitter.  So any comments about approaching with a wedge would only apply to the 3rd shot on my day.  I did hit the green and made par and because the pin was right, the OB was not a big factor.  But I think the greenside OB is a serious consideration when the hole is left and with the hole playing into a stiff wind.

People, please see the pictures of the course before the houses and tell me that the course hasn't been changed by them. 

and truthfully, defending the linearly planted trees on 7 is totally baffling to me.



Bart

[David Kelly]

and truthfully, defending the linearly planted trees on 7 is totally baffling to me.

If it was up to us I doubt anyone on this thread would keep those trees on the 7th hole.

[Pete Lavallee]

Bart,

Did you know that someone was killed by an errant tee shot from the 7th tee while standing on the 8th tee. That was the death knell for the wide open front nine. Also the driving range was once part of that wide open field of play. I imagine that it was great fun to choose a wide berth off the tee to get the preferred line into those various greens. Sadly a greater number of players and the greater distance of today's offline shots mean this feature is lost forever.  Now rows of cypress trees planted like soldiers standing in echelon is probably not the right way to do it; they have been thinned quite a bit since I first played there 30 years ago. I played it on my very first trip to the Monterrey Peninsula and enjoyed it more than Pebble Beach (which I only payed $75 to play!). It is still my favorite public acces course in the world to play. It seems most GCA'ers feel, like myself, that it is vastly underrated. I think your asking the wrong crowd to validate your views of the course.

[David_Elvins]

 
As to number 10, it was playing into a quartering stiff wind.  Well struck driver followed by solid 3 wood for me and I am not a particularly short hitter.  So any comments about approaching with a wedge would only apply to the 3rd shot on my day.  I did hit the green and made par and because the pin was right, the OB was not a big factor.  But I think the greenside OB is a serious consideration when the hole is left and with the hole playing into a stiff wind.

Bart,

Sorry to bring up Merion again, but how would you compare the oob left of 10 at Pasatiempo to the oob left of 14 and 15 at Merion?  Is it the fact it is a house that makes Pasa more of an issue? The fact you are playing from elevation? Anything else?

If it wasn't for the issues on 6, 7 and 10, how would you rank the course?  A 9? An 8? A 7?

[Mike Schott]

I lived within 1-2 hours of Pasatiempo for 1/2 of my adult life and only played the course 3-4 times.  I probably drove past it 15-20 times whilst heading for Pebble Beach  to pay a lot more money than Pasa went for in those days without ever thinking of stopping to play there on the way down or way back.  It is a very good golf course, but there are a lot of very good golf courses, particularly in that part of the world.

I don't really mind the claustrophobia of 6-7 (or 11-12, or 13-18 for that matter....), but the course is cramped given today's technology and 1 was a much better hole when it played as a par 5 from the tee to the far left and back.  And speaking of crampness, with all due respect to David Elvins, I'd play Kingston Heath 9 times out of 10 over Pasa if one was lucky enough to have that choice.

Finally, I introduced the theory of turning 17 and 18 into a great par-5 over ten years ago on this site, and still believe it would be a good (if regretably impractical) idea....  So what if it meant that there would be back-to-back short holes at 13 and (a new) 14?  Pacific Dunes seems to have survived criticism with its 10 and 11...... (insert proper emoticon here).

Hi Rich.

I just don't understand why anyone would want to disturb the natural routing that already exists. Seventeen is tucked beautifully into that corner of the course and while not among the best is a fine hole. I certainly would never touch 18 which fits the land perfectly. Why mess with MacKenzie and Hollin's choice? I doubt anyone here can do better.

[Bart Bradley]

Bart,

 It is still my favorite public access course in the world to play. It seems most GCA'ers feel, like myself, that it is vastly underrated. I think your asking the wrong crowd to validate your views of the course.

Pete,

I liked Pasatiempo.  It has some great holes (some truly world class holes).  I am not asking anyone to validate anything.

I, in fact, implied that the course may have rivaled Cypress Point when first built.  Very high praise.  "Favorite public access course in the world at present" seems a bit high for me, but you are certainly entitled to that opinion.

David,

You'll get nowhere comparing the current-day Pasa to Merion with me.    .   I don't remember the OB on 14 at Merion being within 40-50 yards of the proper line of play, but maybe I didn't see it or notice it... I feel quite certain that you and others on this thread will correct any mis-remembering that I may be doing  .  I didn't go OB once at Pasa but I noticed it quite a few times.

All:  I enjoy reading thoughtful analysis of the course.  I was not attempting to argue against Pasatiempo as a course well worth visiting.   I'm happy that I went, I'd go back, I'd recommend a visit. 

Bart

[Mac Plumart]

Bart...

Part 2 of my question above was this...

Is there anything in the ground as Pasa that offers something unique to the game of golf/golf course design?

Any thoughts?

[Bart Bradley]

Bart...

Part 2 of my question above was this...

Is there anything in the ground as Pasa that offers something unique to the game of golf/golf course design?

Any thoughts?

Mac:

I thought I answered this question.  I said that the routing of the back nine and the use of the baranca was unique and well worth studying.

What are your thoughts to your questions?

Bart

[Andy Troeger]

Has #10 changed since 2007? The photo I took shows maybe 15 paces between the left edge and the left OB line. It looks like the OB over the green may have been closer then. With a shorter approach I don't think it was a big issue.

I did think the second half of #6 and #7 were weak compared to the rest of the course. And I can see where Bart is coming from in the sense that I've not seen that type of situation at most of the best of the best. That said, I think Pasatiempo is easily a top 100 in the USA course and the back nine especially is fantastic.

That old photo of #18 is one of the coolest golf pictures I've ever seen. Thanks for posting.

[Mac Plumart]

I agree, Bart.  The routing takes great advantage of the barranca and brings a lot of excitement/thrill into the round.  It reminded me a bit of Shoreacres use of that swale, but with even more drama.  I would say that is a unique aspect of the course and something to study in regards to taking good advantage of natural features.

I also thought the bunkering and use of fairway and green contours to feed the ball to specific places was really neat...world class, even.

I think your points about housing and intrusion upon the course is valid.  Seeing photos of the modern day 18th compared to the older versions of the course is a bit shocking.  And I can see from those photos that the experience might have been even greater back in the day...more peaceful, more serene.  However, I do think the actual golf is excellent.  Like I mentioned, I've only been around once...but I do think it has all the elements in place for endlessly entertaining golf...and I'd play again in a heart beat.

Another unique aspect of Pasa is Mackenzie's house.  Adds quite a bit of charm for the architecture junkies.  Of course, this is not golf course architecture related, directly, but is still cool and unique.

[Rich Goodale]

I lived within 1-2 hours of Pasatiempo for 1/2 of my adult life and only played the course 3-4 times.  I probably drove past it 15-20 times whilst heading for Pebble Beach  to pay a lot more money than Pasa went for in those days without ever thinking of stopping to play there on the way down or way back.  It is a very good golf course, but there are a lot of very good golf courses, particularly in that part of the world.

I don't really mind the claustrophobia of 6-7 (or 11-12, or 13-18 for that matter....), but the course is cramped given today's technology and 1 was a much better hole when it played as a par 5 from the tee to the far left and back.  And speaking of crampness, with all due respect to David Elvins, I'd play Kingston Heath 9 times out of 10 over Pasa if one was lucky enough to have that choice.

Finally, I introduced the theory of turning 17 and 18 into a great par-5 over ten years ago on this site, and still believe it would be a good (if regretably impractical) idea....  So what if it meant that there would be back-to-back short holes at 13 and (a new) 14?  Pacific Dunes seems to have survived criticism with its 10 and 11...... (insert proper emoticon here).

Hi Rich.

I just don't understand why anyone would want to disturb the natural routing that already exists. Seventeen is tucked beautifully into that corner of the course and while not among the best is a fine hole. I certainly would never touch 18 which fits the land perfectly. Why mess with MacKenzie and Hollin's choice? I doubt anyone here can do better.

Hi Mike

Just think of having to hit into the current 18th green from 220 or so (or lay up).  It will never happen, but as Robert Brwoning said, "a man's reach should exceed his grasp).....

Rich

[Mike Schott]

I lived within 1-2 hours of Pasatiempo for 1/2 of my adult life and only played the course 3-4 times.  I probably drove past it 15-20 times whilst heading for Pebble Beach  to pay a lot more money than Pasa went for in those days without ever thinking of stopping to play there on the way down or way back.  It is a very good golf course, but there are a lot of very good golf courses, particularly in that part of the world.

I don't really mind the claustrophobia of 6-7 (or 11-12, or 13-18 for that matter....), but the course is cramped given today's technology and 1 was a much better hole when it played as a par 5 from the tee to the far left and back.  And speaking of crampness, with all due respect to David Elvins, I'd play Kingston Heath 9 times out of 10 over Pasa if one was lucky enough to have that choice.

Finally, I introduced the theory of turning 17 and 18 into a great par-5 over ten years ago on this site, and still believe it would be a good (if regretably impractical) idea....  So what if it meant that there would be back-to-back short holes at 13 and (a new) 14?  Pacific Dunes seems to have survived criticism with its 10 and 11...... (insert proper emoticon here).

Hi Rich.

I just don't understand why anyone would want to disturb the natural routing that already exists. Seventeen is tucked beautifully into that corner of the course and while not among the best is a fine hole. I certainly would never touch 18 which fits the land perfectly. Why mess with MacKenzie and Hollin's choice? I doubt anyone here can do better.

Hi Mike

Just think of having to hit into the current 18th green from 220 or so (or lay up).  It will never happen, but as Robert Brwoning said, "a man's reach should exceed his grasp).....

Rich

Thanks Rich.

That would be an epic shot for sure and if Dr. MacKenzie had designed it I'd be ok with it. Maybe it would offer a similar challenge to 13 at Augusta but with no chance of recovery from the barranca aside from the traps.

I'm particularly fond of 18 as a par 3 because I made par on the hole after blowing up on 16 and 17.

[John Kirk]

Pasatiempo is amazing.  It is one of my favorite courses.  The routing is incredible.  The back nine gets all of the glory, but the front nine flows just as beautifully (just no baranca).  The houses cramp the sixth hole and that's it, but it gets a free pass because one of them is Alister Mackenzie's house.  I am sure a lot of GCAers would get excited about that.  I do look at the old pics when the course first opened.  Open hillsides, dotted with big oak trees, no homes...really stunning.  Would it be a top 20 if it were still like that?  I think Pasatiempo should start saving cash to buy all homes that encroach the course...the start of the most expensive restoration ever.

I only disagree with the characterization that the course is too narrow at #6 and #7, as I feel this requirement for accuracy yields all sort of interesting decisions, although I always play #6 driver and 3-iron first.  I like the drive at #6 very much, even from the new back tee.  #7 is a precision hole, and a fair one at that.  Every hole is good though I would very much like to see five distinct pin positions on #8.

I reviewed the comments, and no one has alluded to the fact that the 65 year old Pasatiempo member who walks that course twelve months a year is a very healthy person.  This is the kind of place that a good athlete wants to walk in retirement.  My opinion is top 50 US, but there's that regional bias I worry about.  Every time I play Pasatiempo I love every hole and the amazing walk.  Over 30 years of golf and growing up there, I've played it 50-60 times and it has a magical appeal in my life.  Big love for Pasatiempo and Santa Cruz.   

[Matthew Mollica]

David:

I played two courses with you in Australia, St. Andrews Beach and National Moonah.  Do you think Pasa measures up to either of those courses now?  How about Royal Adelaide?  All of those courses would fall in the echelon of courses below the very best, in my opinion..but they are all an echelon above the course at Pasa.  So, I would put it 2-3 steps down from the very best as it is currently presented.

Bart

I've only played Pasa three times Bart, as well as RA six or so times, and dozens of rounds at the two you mention on the Mornington Peninsula. IMO Pasa is the best of those four courses by some way.

MM

[Bart Bradley]

David:

I played two courses with you in Australia, St. Andrews Beach and National Moonah.  Do you think Pasa measures up to either of those courses now?  How about Royal Adelaide?  All of those courses would fall in the echelon of courses below the very best, in my opinion..but they are all an echelon above the course at Pasa.  So, I would put it 2-3 steps down from the very best as it is currently presented.

Bart

I've only played Pasa three times Bart, as well as RA six or so times, and dozens of rounds at the two you mention on the Mornington Peninsula. IMO Pasa is the best of those four courses by some way.

MM

Ok cool, David and MM.   So why is it better and in what ways is it not as good?

Bart

PS.  I  have been trying to get some real discussion of the course's strengths and weaknesses.  David, I see you changed your post above.  I would give PASA a 7 at present and have no idea what I would have given Pasa when first constructed.  Several have implied that the OB would have been present right from the beginning...so perhaps, I would have rated it similarly.  But I could envision that course could easily be an 8 or 9 for me without the nets, roads, houses, OB, fences, tree issues and soft conditions.

Best wishes,

Bart

[Matthew Mollica]

Bart,

I've been thinking about what makes Pasa really enjoyable, and why I think of it so highly. Rich's comment that he regularly drove past it and never thought twice of playing it surprises me. So too his claim that he'd much prefer to regularly play Kingston Heath than Pasatiempo. Having said that, if Mr Huntley were down the road at a muni, I'd drive past KH to spend time in Bob's company too.

Do we value courses from other lands more than we value those in our own backyard? On occasions almost certainly yes. I feel some think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence... Does familiarity breed contempt? Do the faults we miss on a first time pass become apparent on repeat play? Perhaps.

The fact that Kingston Heath enjoys a consistent position inside the World Top 50, and that Pasatiempo can't secure a consistent spot inside the USA Top 100 seems to me like a disparity MILES too great to be remotely justified.

Pasatiempo lacks a thrilling short 4 but then many great courses do. And the trees on 7 are a blight - I'd love to chop every one of them down! Yet it's land is wonderful, the greens exciting, artistic and well-constructed, certainly magnifying the inherent strategy of the holes.  The barrancas are employed really well. The topography is exploited to maximise thrilling shot making. The opening drive. The 3rd and 5th holes. I love the 6th drive too. The drive and second shot on 10; the approach on 11, as well as the drive and approach on 12. The ground movement on the left of 14 is really neat, and the 15th is a little gem. There's nothing at RA or National Moonah as good as 16 at Pasa. The par 3s as a set - 5,8,13 and 18 are varied, exciting, demanding yet manageable.

Royal Adelaide is routed on quite flat land, and makes reasonable use of it's topographic features. Yet there's some stuff there which could be incorporated into the course which is not. It's routing is intimate yet many of it's greens are a bit bland rather than elegantly understated, and the absence of a clear view as to how the course should be presented holds it back in my opinion.The mounding in particular, and signs of past tinkering is a major blight. Aesthetic consistency would do the course the world of good. The par 3s as a set are reasonably bland to me. I suppose the acid test is how many of my visiting friends from abroad visit RA. Very few, and those who don't see it never express regret. Indeed, of those who do, some occasionally wonder why they bothered. Hopefully things change when Tom finishes his work there.

Kingston Heath is a very good course. And a wonderful Club, where I'm proud to be a member. It's land is flattish, save the ridge employed on the southern half of the course. The par 5s all run in the same southerly direction, which in a consistent wind, presents a sameness to the challenge of all the long homes, to some degree. KH is exacting, and almost prescriptive in parts, with the occasional absence of shades of grey and corresponding variance in challenge with the subsequent shot. It is beautifully bunkered in spots, but over-bunkered in others. The course possesses wonderful holes in 3,10,15 and 16, as well as the unique 17th. I can't help but think that some view KH as better than it actually is however...

National Moonah - a wonderful place to play where there's a sense of isolation. Great driving challenges abound, and the course's elasticity is remarkable. It's solid without being truly great. I'm not sure that it's best holes are as good as those at Pasa. I'll ask you a question - what are you glad you saw at Moonah? The ridge on 3, the exposed one-shot hole on the top of the hill at 5? The 10th or 11th greens? The land is eminently suited to golf at Moonah yet it's routing seems almost rudimentary in comparison to that of Pasa.

St. Andrews Beach is the last of the four in our discussion. Any mention of the course needs to include the second hole, which is sheer brilliance. The course is really cool, and different to most layouts the majority visit. Tremendous width, and natural greens where the hand of man is often difficult to discern. The course needs to be played many times to really appreciate the position of optimum approach to many greens. Is the course home to some edgy design, which occasionally doesn't quite work as well as intended? Maybe. There's many critics of 3 and 4, 15,16 and 17. That's a reasonable part of the course...

The 25 round split test for me -

Pasa 9
Kingston Heath 5
St. Andrews Beach 5
National Moonah 4
Royal Adelaide 2

MM

[David_Elvins]

Ok cool, David and MM.   So why is it better and in what ways is it not as good?

Bart

Bart,

I am probably going to double up a bit on MM's excellent reply but here goes a bit of a ramble. 

I think for me, first of all great courses have to have great holes and I think Pasatiempo has more than it's fair share of great holes.  3 is just a wonderful par 3 (or 3.5!) on a fairly non-descript piece of ground.  11 uses the baranca as a diagonal hazard superbly and the hogs back fairway on 16 wonderfuly complements the extreme green.  I think it is without question that these are great holes.  2, 10 and 15 are not without their claims either.

St Andrews Beach, Kingston Heath and National Moonah probably have 2 great holes between the 3 courses - 2 at St Andrews Beach, and 15 at Kingston Heath, although KH3, KH16, and STAB14 are not without claims. 

The second thing great golf courses offer IMO is great strategy.  Pasatiempo has this in spades.   The extreme slops on the greens create many 'no-go' zones that the player has to be wary of avoiding.  However the slopes can often be used cleverly by the player who has positioned his tee shot well.   Pasatiempo has the width that strategic courses need, and the green contours seem well thought out in relation to the hole as whole.  For example, on 16 an agressive draw with a driver will leave the player with a wedge straight up the slope of the green, whereas a whimpy 3 wood pushed out to the right might leave a 6 iron coming over a deep bunker and at an angle to the tiers iin the green. 

There is no doubt that St Andrews Beach is a strategic course, I do not always find Kingston Heath and National Moonah as strategic. 

The third thing golf courses have imo is variety.  No two holes at Pasatiempo are a like and there are so many varied features.  The hump short right of the 2nd that lets you feed the ball in, the ridge that runs diagonally through the 4th fairway.  the saddle you hit through on the 6th tee, the bunker short of the shallow green on 10, the diagonal baranca on 11, the delicate pitch into 12, the cool second shot bunkers and mickey mouse shaped green on 13 that provide a range of second shot options, the ditch in the fairway in 14, the long green on 17...  No two holes at Pasatiempo are alike.  There is a variety of hazards ranging from mounds, to shallow bunkers, deep bunkers, natural ridges, barancas that you can play out of, barancas that you can't play out of...Just a fantastic collection of holes. 

Kingston Heath has no weak holes but it does have a similarity to a lot of holes, some of that is the terrain, and some just a sameness around the greens.  It definitely does not offer the ability to use contours creatively as Pasatiempo does.  The strategy is more about avoiding short siding yourself.  STAB has a great variety of par 4s, but it does have an sameness playing into and out of the valleys at times.  One thing that I think is un-noticed at STAB and National Moonah is that the lack of flat land may be a negative.  At Pasatiempo the flat land at 13-15 provides some variety and offers the golfer a bit of respite on his hilly trek.  I know Joe could have done with a few flat holes for respite on the back nine at STAB!

Last of all, Playability. The ability to challenge the golfer with something that is difficult yet achievable.  Pasatiempo gets this balance spot on, IMO (although I have not played it with superfast greens).  There are just so many shots on that course that I look forward to playing.  2nd into 2, tee shot on 3,  tee shot on 4, tee shot on 5 to a left pin, tee shot on 6 knowing a good drive takes the pressure off the second shot, second into 9 if within reach, bouncing the scond onto 10, tee shot and second shot on 11, second shot on 13, tee shot on 15, tee shot and second shot on 16, tee shot on 18.  And that is without even getting to the recovery shots and putts...many of which are going to be memorable. 

Shots I can't wait to hit at National Moonah...none...at Kingston Heath - tee shot and second into 3, second on 7, tee shot on 10, tee shot on 15, second on 16...thats about it.  a STAB - tee shot and second on 1, tee shot and second on 2, second on 3, tee shot on 11, second on 13, second on 18... 


Sorry, I can't wait to go back and give Pasatiempo another crack...so many interesting shots, so much variety, so much fun.

[Bart Bradley]

It took 3 pages, but these last 2 posts are the best of what Golfclubatlas has to offer.  Gentlemen, thank you for your thoughts.  Plenty to chew on and think about.

I had no doubt before these posts that the best holes of the courses discussed were at Pasatiempo.  For me, it seems to have the  highest highs but also it may possess the lowest lows.

Anyway, thank you so much for taking the time and effort to share.  Awesome stuff.

Bart

[Bill_McBride]

Bart, I started playing Pasatiempo as a youth when my dad would rent a cottage, one of several up where the Hollins House stands today.  Once during the week we would drive down to Pebble Beach and play a round for $25 (this was in the '50's!).   I always felt that Pasatiempo was a bigger challenge required you to drive more accurately and be a much better putter. 

David Elvins, you overlooked one of the great shots at Pasa, the second from the swale at 14!   Everyone wants to drive safely out to the right there to avoid the swale, but then you have to deal with the tough bunker front right.  Drives into the swale find the relatively flat bottom, and from there it's an unimpeded iron down the axis of the green. 

One of my Top 25 courses Pasatiempo is. 

[Jason Thurman]

For a guy who might be in San Jose in May, how does Pasatiempo compare with Spyglass Hill? I've played Pebble, so I'd like to see one of those two courses on my next visit to the area.

[Alex Miller]

It took 3 pages, but these last 2 posts are the best of what Golfclubatlas has to offer.  Gentlemen, thank you for your thoughts.  Plenty to chew on and think about.

I had no doubt before these posts that the best holes of the courses discussed were at Pasatiempo.  For me, it seems to have the  highest highs but also it may possess the lowest lows.

Anyway, thank you so much for taking the time and effort to share.  Awesome stuff.

Bart

One thing I would say about the lows that make them passable for me: they don't effect the entire holes. The tee shot on 6 is still fantastic even though the approach is crowded by homes and trees. When I look back on that hole I think the OB was a blight, but there is a great drive and great green so it's only part of my impression of the 6th. It in no way "ruins" that hole and as a result is only a relative low point to the rest of the course, but not outright bad. Same with the tee shot on 7 as only being part of that hole. 7's green complex is fantastic, so when I look back on 7 (my least favorite hole on the course) I again do not find it completely "ruined".

I mention these things because we often break a course up in different ways when evaluating it. Sometimes by 9 holes, by each individual hole, and by each individual shot. Of the 35 full shots around Pasatiempo only on 2 (layup on 6 and tee shot on 7) did I feel they were anything but very good.

[Bart Bradley]

Alex:

Thank you.

I admit to rarely, if ever thinking that way.  Perhaps I should more often.

Bart

[Bill_McBride]

For a guy who might be in San Jose in May, how does Pasatiempo compare with Spyglass Hill? I've played Pebble, so I'd like to see one of those two courses on my next visit to the area.

9-1 Pasa and less expensive. 

[Mac Plumart]

Of the 35 full shots around Pasatiempo


Hmmm...I think I got more of my money's worth at Pasa then you did.   

[Alex Miller]

Of the 35 full shots around Pasatiempo


Hmmm...I think I got more of my money's worth at Pasa then you did.   

You know what I meant...