How good is Pasatiempo? How good was it?

[Bart Bradley]

Bart,

How do the fences, houses and OB stakes and occasional narrowness compare to Merion in your opinion?

David:

Have you played both?  If you have, I am surprised by the question.  There is no reasonable comparison.

Merion's housing is much, much farther back from the course.  I don't recall any nets at Merion nor backyard fences as the side boundary to the course (perhaps 25 yards from the center of the fairway on 6 at Pasa).

Bart

[Alex Miller]

I love the back 9, but 10-16 are certainly better than the last 2, IMO. I'd love to play from 17 tee to 18 green sometime.

(Not trying to thread-jack) Where would you find another hole, if you combined 17 and 18?

Not that it would be better (it would be a huge detriment to the flow of the back 9), you could put a par 3 200 yards out in the 13th fairway and then play from there to the current 13th green as an awesome drive and pitch par 4.

[Bill_McBride]

I love the back 9, but 10-16 are certainly better than the last 2, IMO. I'd love to play from 17 tee to 18 green sometime.

(Not trying to thread-jack) Where would you find another hole, if you combined 17 and 18?

Not that it would be better (it would be a huge detriment to the flow of the back 9), you could put a par 3 200 yards out in the 13th fairway and then play from there to the current 13th green as an awesome drive and pitch par 4.

On a number of occasions I have looked at the land behind the 13th green for a par 3 toward the 14th and then thought a par 5 finisher from the 17th tee to the 18th green.  

The ladies might not be thrilled with that shot across the barranca to the home green!

I say, why tinker with a masterpiece?

[Alex Miller]

I love the back 9, but 10-16 are certainly better than the last 2, IMO. I'd love to play from 17 tee to 18 green sometime.

(Not trying to thread-jack) Where would you find another hole, if you combined 17 and 18?

Not that it would be better (it would be a huge detriment to the flow of the back 9), you could put a par 3 200 yards out in the 13th fairway and then play from there to the current 13th green as an awesome drive and pitch par 4.

On a number of occasions I have looked at the land behind the 13th green for a par 3 tward the 14thand then thought a par 5 finisher from the 17th tee to the 18th green. 

The ladies might not be thrilled with that shot across. He BA Franca to the home green!

I say, why tinker with a masterpiece?

I say you're right!

But to continue our fun, I would question how much room is behind that green? Enough for another short par 3 on that back 9?

[Bill_McBride]

It always looked that way.  Exit 13 green right and play behind the 14th tee.  Not sure how much land but it looks workable.  There might be a turf nursery back there. 

[Bill_McBride]

"Me too! Tripled 17 and turned a 73 into a 76. Sigh..."

Oh, Alex, cry me a river.  I 8 putted #17 once when I was only a coulple/few over going in - for money! 

I thought it was only 7 putts.  Kings Putter 2003?

[Tom_Doak]

On a number of occasions I have looked at the land behind the 13th green for a par 3 tward the 14thand then thought a par 5 finisher from the 17th tee to the 18th green. 

The ladies might not be thrilled with that shot across. He BA Franca to the home green!

I say, why tinker with a masterpiece?

This sounds awful to me.  The par-3 behind 13 green would have no natural feature to distinguish it.  And on top of that, the current 14th would be bookended by two short par-3's.  All so you could have a finishing hole that "finished" most ladies.  I don't think Marion Hollins would have gone for that.

[Jeff Bertch]

Why does anyone have a problem with #7? Yes, it is a small corridor, but not as small as ANGC #18 (in my opinion). Would you really want a wide open tee shot on a 350 yard hole. Suck it up, put the ball in play. Really good green complex for wedges and short irons!

Not sure the complaints about #17 either. It is really a pretty big fairway on a hole that is not that long (370 yards).

To answer the question though, I believe it was better when it opened for one reason; the housing or lack there of.
Check out the historical photos on the website...http://www.pasatiempo.com/web/photos_slideshows.php

As for #18, I go as far as saying it is a perfect finishing hole back then. Can you imagine hitting a hickory in from a 170 yards to a green that runs half the speed of today's green. I'd say many a match was swayed by the finisher at Pasatiempo!

[Bill_McBride]

On a number of occasions I have looked at the land behind the 13th green for a par 3 tward the 14thand then thought a par 5 finisher from the 17th tee to the 18th green. 

The ladies might not be thrilled with that shot across. He BA Franca to the home green!

I say, why tinker with a masterpiece?

This sounds awful to me.  The par-3 behind 13 green would have no natural feature to distinguish it.  And on top of that, the current 14th would be bookended by two short par-3's.  All so you could have a finishing hole that "finished" most ladies.  I don't think Marion Hollins would have gone for that.

That's why I said, "why tinker with a masterpiece?"   . Alex was speculating and I facilitated his thinking.   I love 18 just like it is and look forward to playing the new 17th. 

[Alex Miller]

On a number of occasions I have looked at the land behind the 13th green for a par 3 tward the 14thand then thought a par 5 finisher from the 17th tee to the 18th green. 

The ladies might not be thrilled with that shot across. He BA Franca to the home green!

I say, why tinker with a masterpiece?

This sounds awful to me.  The par-3 behind 13 green would have no natural feature to distinguish it.  And on top of that, the current 14th would be bookended by two short par-3's.  All so you could have a finishing hole that "finished" most ladies.  I don't think Marion Hollins would have gone for that.

That's why I said, "why tinker with a masterpiece?"   . Alex was speculating and I facilitated his thinking.   I love 18 just like it is and look forward to playing the new 17th. 

Facilitated eh? He didn't criticize MY idea! 

I think Jeff's picture illustrates how those two holes have probably been affected most by homes and tree growth, though I still can't praise the course highly enough!

[hhuffines]

Bart, there is a great black and white photo slideshow of Pasatiempo listed under one of the last posts in the Mid Pines thread.  Sorry for improper footnote but it is found in theothersideofgolf.blogsport.com, posted by J. Kovich.  The photos really show what pasa was like before the housing.

[David_Elvins]

David:

Have you played both?  If you have, I am surprised by the question.  There is no reasonable comparison.

Bart,

I have been to both three times.  I was interested in your opinion as to whether the OB and houses at Merion is a negative or not because I wanted to understand more about where you were coming from.  I was not suggesting that the two courses were directly comparable but a comparison of the features of both would help flesh out your opinion, and explain exactly what it was about the OB at Pasa that you did not like.

Personally I thought that the OB problems at Pasa are overstated.  6 has a good green and a really good tee shot.  The second shot is not ideal but on a course with many 50 yard wide fairways, demanding the golfer to play one shot straight down the middle with a bit of pressure on him is not an horrendous offence IMO.   

And 7 has a really good green.  Again, not an ideal tee shot but the fairway is 30 yards wide on a 340 yard hole.  Does the course ask too hard a question, only allowing an unhindered approach shot to  the player who can play up the left or draw the ball into the middle of the fairway?  Sure, if every hole was like these two, the course would be not so good (I guarantee you that there are some highly regarded courses with 20-30 yard wide fairways though), but variety is the spice of life and a couple of demanding shots is a nice balance to the wide fairways on offer throughout much of the rest of the course.

If you were comparing the course to the very best courses in America (say Sand Hills, CPC, Pacific Dunes, NGLA, etc) then marking it below these courses because of the 6th and 7th holes is fine. 

But I am unsure why you would mark it down any more than to a step behind the very best?  I loved visiting Garden City, MPCC, Bandon Dunes, Old MacDonald, The Creek Club, Kingston Heath, NSW, Swinley Forest and Sunningdale.  But there is no way I would prefer to play any of them on a regular basis over Pasatiempo. I struggle to see how these courses are rated far superior on various lists.  Pasa has too many great holes and too much variety to be thought of lightly because of a narrow couple of shots. 

[Bart Bradley]

David:

I played two courses with you in Australia, St. Andrews Beach and National Moonah.  Do you think Pasa measures up to either of those courses now?  How about Royal Adelaide?  All of those courses would fall in the echelon of courses below the very best, in my opinion..but they are all an echelon above the course at Pasa.  So, I would put it 2-3 steps down from the very best as it is currently presented.

Bart

[Jud_T]

How often is the course in relatively dry condition?  I assume the best time to play it is Jun-Sep?

[Bill Seitz]

I've only played it once, but unfortunately it was after a pretty steady rain for a few days.  It was gorgeous the day we were there, but the course was pretty saturated, and I was surprised at how well the hillsides hold the moisture.  While on the topic of conditioning, it looks like they just hired a new super, Justin Mandon who was at Olympic in preparation for the Open.  I say this like I'm really tuned in to the inner workings of the golf industry, but this comes from email that I assume was automatically generated for people who booked tee times recently.

Having grown up playing urban courses (high school home course was Santa Anita), the houses and nets along six didn't really bother me.  And with the Mackenzie house right there, I think that section of the course kind of cool.  Seven also didn't bother me, but I had a good drive on that hole.  And as was mentioned before, it's a short hole, and you should be asked to hit the ball straight once in a while. 

I absolutely loved the place, and look forward to going back.  I thought the green complexes were terrific, and really like the bunkering as well.  Just wish I hadn't slipped on the tee shot on 14 and ripped the ball into the woods on the left.  I left a lot of shots out there on the back after a decent front nine. 

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

I think it's been covered on gca.com over the years, but 6-7-8 as well as 1-9 will probably have to suffer with those trees for safety's sake (or least the perception of safety) in this day and age.  As a public course, with a relatively full tee-sheet, those areas have to be liability nightmares.  Wtih that said, i think Pasa has managed the trees in those areas quite well in thinning them out and trimming branches up to give as much "angle" as possible.  And, lilke most courses not named Oakmont, it could stand to lose dozens of trees all over the property to better show-off the architecture.

As for comparing to OB to Merion, i'd say 7 and maybe 8 on the East course are pretty darned close to OB (right) w/ neighbors' fences (if i recall?) and some pretty good-sized pines lining the right-hand side.  So, it's pretty darned tight... and doesn't bother me.  Same w/ at Pasatiempo.

[David_Tepper]

"How often is the course in relatively dry condition?  I assume the best time to play it is Jun-Sep?"

Jud T -

I cannot comment specifically on Pasa, but most of the NorCal courses that are relatively close to the ocean (within a mile or two) are usually most firm and dry in May/June and September/October. The summer fog in July & August can keep those courses on the soft side.

DT  

[Rich Goodale]

I lived within 1-2 hours of Pasatiempo for 1/2 of my adult life and only played the course 3-4 times.  I probably drove past it 15-20 times whilst heading for Pebble Beach  to pay a lot more money than Pasa went for in those days without ever thinking of stopping to play there on the way down or way back.  It is a very good golf course, but there are a lot of very good golf courses, particularly in that part of the world.

I don't really mind the claustrophobia of 6-7 (or 11-12, or 13-18 for that matter....), but the course is cramped given today's technology and 1 was a much better hole when it played as a par 5 from the tee to the far left and back.  And speaking of crampness, with all due respect to David Elvins, I'd play Kingston Heath 9 times out of 10 over Pasa if one was lucky enough to have that choice.

Finally, I introduced the theory of turning 17 and 18 into a great par-5 over ten years ago on this site, and still believe it would be a good (if regretably impractical) idea....  So what if it meant that there would be back-to-back short holes at 13 and (a new) 14?  Pacific Dunes seems to have survived criticism with its 10 and 11...... (insert proper emoticon here).

[Tim Passalacqua]

Pasatiempo is amazing.  It is one of my favorite courses.  The routing is incredible.  The back nine gets all of the glory, but the front nine flows just as beautifully (just no baranca).  The houses cramp the sixth hole and that's it, but it gets a free pass because one of them is Alister Mackenzie's house.  I am sure a lot of GCAers would get excited about that.  I do look at the old pics when the course first opened.  Open hillsides, dotted with big oak trees, no homes...really stunning.  Would it be a top 20 if it were still like that?  I think Pasatiempo should start saving cash to buy all homes that encroach the course...the start of the most expensive restoration ever.

[JLahrman]

I lived within 1-2 hours of Pasatiempo for 1/2 of my adult life and only played the course 3-4 times.  I probably drove past it 15-20 times whilst heading for Pebble Beach  to pay a lot more money than Pasa went for in those days without ever thinking of stopping to play there on the way down or way back.  It is a very good golf course, but there are a lot of very good golf courses, particularly in that part of the world.

I don't really mind the claustrophobia of 6-7 (or 11-12, or 13-18 for that matter....), but the course is cramped given today's technology and 1 was a much better hole when it played as a par 5 from the tee to the far left and back.  And speaking of crampness, with all due respect to David Elvins, I'd play Kingston Heath 9 times out of 10 over Pasa if one was lucky enough to have that choice.

Finally, I introduced the theory of turning 17 and 18 into a great par-5 over ten years ago on this site, and still believe it would be a good (if regretably impractical) idea....  So what if it meant that there would be back-to-back short holes at 13 and (a new) 14?  Pacific Dunes seems to have survived criticism with its 10 and 11...... (insert proper emoticon here).

+1. I have only played Pasa once, but I would agree with this (though I haven't played Kingston Heath). Perhaps my expectations were too high given the extreme enthusiasm over the course on this website. I will try to play the course again to give it a second look.

[Jason Topp]

I found it to be a great course when dry and a good one when wet.  The first time I played it (early/mid 90's) I did so not because of any knowledge about the course but rather because I was staying on Monterey and wanted to save money.  Monterey was fogged in but Pasatiempo had perfect weather.  I saved 100 or more dollars off the cost and was very suprised at how good the course was.  I wished I was back there the next morning while playing in the fog at Spyglass.

Was 16 a better hole when it had the big tree in the fairway?  I think it was there the first time I played it but my memory is hazy enough I do not trust it. 

[David Kelly]

I played two courses with you in Australia, St. Andrews Beach and National Moonah.  Do you think Pasa measures up to either of those courses now?  How about Royal Adelaide?  All of those courses would fall in the echelon of courses below the very best, in my opinion..but they are all an echelon above the course at Pasa. 

I don't see that at all.  I like St. Andrews Beach a lot but I wouldn't put it ahead of Pasatiempo and I would put Royal Adelaide and definitely National Moonah a ways behind it.

[David_Elvins]

Bart,

The older I get the less scientifically I rate courses but I am with David Kelly - I have it a fair way ahead of National Moonah and Royal Adelaide, probably a bit ahead of St Andrews Beach.  I think you had St Andrews Beach and National Moonah pegged as about  'high 6 to low 7' on a 'doak scale'.  If so that puts pasa as a 6 which is way too low for me.

Rich Goodale,

Have you been to Pasatiempo post renovations (2007)? That is the course I am comparing to Kingston Heath.  I never saw it prior to the renovation but from looking at photos it seems like a fantastic and significant renovation/restoration.

*disclaimer:  every time I have played Pasatiempo the weather has been glorious and my ball striking good.  I may be a bit biased.  But to me,great golf courses have great holes, great green complexes, great strategies,  and great variety.  Pasatiempo ticks all these boxes imo.

[Joe_Tucholski]

Wasn't conscious of the OB on 10, and since the fairway and green both slope left I was aiming nowhere near the OB, even with a wedge in my hand.

You would have a wedge going in.  At 440 it certainly wasn't a wedge for me.  I played my old trust 21 degree wood into the green and was worried.  I played on a damp day and can't remember a course where I had more woods/long irons into par 4s.

Why does anyone have a problem with #7? Yes, it is a small corridor, but not as small as ANGC #18 (in my opinion). Would you really want a wide open tee shot on a 350 yard hole. Suck it up, put the ball in play. Really good green complex for wedges and short irons!

Jeff for me the trees were a problem because they reminded me of airport landing lights.  I don't like it when a golf course reminds me of a landing strip.  Like you said I have no problem with the small corridor it's the regularly spaced double line of trees that look unnatural.

[Mac Plumart]

Bart...

Rather than focusing on where you would rank the course among the world's elite courses, I'd like to ask a different set of questions.

Regarding Pasatiempo, would you recommend a student of golf course architecture visit Pasa?  Why or why not?

Is there anything in the ground as Pasa that offers something unique to the game of golf/golf course design?