When it comes to evaluating

[Patrick_Mucci]

par 3's, the 5th at Streamsong Blue has to be amongst the very best in golf.

The hole has what many par 3's lack................ Incredible Variety

The long angled green with it's contours, slopes, pitch, run offs and disaster left has to present one of the most interesting targets in all of golf.

Often par 3's are one dimensional, # 5 Blue has incredible variety between the tee you play, the hole location, direction of the wind and wind velocity you could play the hole dozens and dozens of times and never play a similar shot.

# 7 is a wonderful hole and visually stunning but it doesn't have # 5's variety

With two courses with an abundance of really good par 3's, # 5 seems to stand above the others.

What par 3's have # 5's variety ?

Which par 3's are better ? And why ?

[Joe Bausch]

Did you play the Red course Moron Mucci?   

How did you find the 8th hole on the Red?

[Mark Saltzman]

Joe, is 8R as elastic? I figured it would always be a hole where something as high as possible would work best.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe, is 8R as elastic? I figured it would always be a hole where something as high as possible would work best.

Is 8R aerial from the left tee?  To a front pin?

[Josh Tarble]

I really like Red #14. I thought it was a little similar to Blue #5. Those two are both really exposed to the wind up on that plateau. With huge fun! greens.

[Mark Saltzman]

Joe, is 8R as elastic? I figured it would always be a hole where something as high as possible would work best.

Is 8R aerial from the left tee?  To a front pin?

My memory is failing me.. Is there pinnable area left of the collecting swale on the front right portion of the green?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Did you play the Red course Moron Mucci?   

I did

How did you find the 8th hole on the Red?

I found it by walking to the back right of the 7th green

[Joe Bausch]

Did you play the Red course Moron Mucci?   

I did

How did you find the 8th hole on the Red?

I found it by walking to the back right of the 7th green

Buh-da-da-dom!  Rim shot!!!

[Bill McKinley]

I'd say that 16R has a good deal of variety. Not as much as 5B but I could see that hole playing quite different. A front pin needs a high shot from a mid iron, while a middle pin in the swale could be any number of shots depending on wind, firmness of the green, and how far you can hit the ball in the air. A back pin would require a long iron or hybrid or fairway wood that needs to roll out.

But is variety the most important variable in determining the greatness of a par 3?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'd say that 16R has a good deal of variety. Not as much as 5B but I could see that hole playing quite different. A front pin needs a high shot from a mid iron, while a middle pin in the swale could be any number of shots depending on wind, firmness of the green, and how far you can hit the ball in the air. A back pin would require a long iron or hybrid or fairway wood that needs to roll out.

But is variety the most important variable in determining the greatness of a par 3?

It's certainly a factor.

16 R is a terrific hole but it requires an heroic carry.

Kyle Harris two (2) putted # 5 for a birdie.
Where else can you do this ?

[Michael Whitaker]

Kyle Harris two (2) putted # 5 for a birdie.
Where else can you do this ?

So... Kyle is now channeling Neil Regan?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Did you play the Red course Moron Mucci?   

How did you find the 8th hole on the Red?

Joe,

I played 8 Red this morning and found it too easy

I had a hole in one

I'm heading out to try to duplicate the feat on the Blue in ten minutes

[Stephen Davis]

Did you play the Red course Moron Mucci?   

How did you find the 8th hole on the Red?

Joe,

I played 8 Red this morning and found it too easy

I had a hole in one

I'm heading out to try to duplicate the feat on the Blue in ten minutes

Congrats Pat! What a great place to get one. What number is that for you now?

[Adam Clayman]

Patrick, do you think posting between rounds, after a hole in one, is the most impartial time to declare everything you've declared about the set of par 3's?

[Joe Bausch]

Did you play the Red course Moron Mucci?   

How did you find the 8th hole on the Red?

Joe,

I played 8 Red this morning and found it too easy

I had a hole in one

I'm heading out to try to duplicate the feat on the Blue in ten minutes

A hole in mor-one!

[Bill Brightly]

The hole-in-one Pat made is amazing. The pin was up front, tucked 5 paces over the front-left bunker. I came up one yard short and had a buried lie UNDER the ledge with no play. Double bogey. Pat must have landed it just over the trap, because anything landing pin high is likely to run over into the back left bunker.

By the way, I saw Pat having lunch between rounds and he did not even mention the hole in one.

Hole 5 is a GREAT short par 3 and all the guys in our group loved it.  A front pin there, like Hole 8 on Red would be extremely difficult. What makes the hole so special is the firmness of the green because without the ability to hit and stop the ball, you must account for the contour and plan your rollout.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Today, as the Great Kyle Harris predicted, the hole was cut back right on # 5 Blue and I just missed a hole in one by two shots.

A fellow I was playing with hit the front third of the green and was lucky to make 4.

The wind today started early this morning and was probably 20+ mph, and it was about 42 degrees when we teed off.
One fellow was from Chicago and the other from Minnesota and both felt like they were still there.

Gotta run, but, I'll be back

Streamsong gave me the flag for # 8 which I thought was rather nice of them.

But I was most pleased when my son hit it 4' 10" to a back right pin on # 16 Red from the black tees

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shivas,

Unlike most, my powers of observation and evaluation are beyond keen.

Played the hole 3 times from different tees to different hole locations with different winds

The problem/genius of # 5 is that you could play it 60+ days in a row and never play the same hole twice, since the variety it presents is just a little short of infinite.

While it might take you a few years to recognize the merits of the hole, recognition was instantaneous for me.

I suspect, although I wouldn't bet on it, that even you would see the value of the hole, if someone pointed them out to you, with just a few dozen plays. 

[Tom_Doak]

In the two semifinal matches of the Renaissance Cup, the hole was cut in the bowl back right, but the wind had turned so that the hole was playing straight downwind.  It seemed almost impossible to carry the ridge and get the ball to stop on the green in the bowl.  To make matters more difficult, the format had switched to foursomes play, so each team had only one shot at it.

In each of the two matches, one team flared its approach out to the right, didn't carry the ridge, and wound up having to chip up and over the ridge and down into the bowl.  Only the eventual champions made the proper play ... settling for a tee shot to the back left quadrant, and then putting into the bowl where they had the ridge for a backstop.  Easy 3 for them.  The other match was halved in 5!

[Pete Buczkowski]

In the two semifinal matches of the Renaissance Cup, the hole was cut in the bowl back right, but the wind had turned so that the hole was playing straight downwind.  It seemed almost impossible to carry the ridge and get the ball to stop on the green in the bowl.  To make matters more difficult, the format had switched to foursomes play, so each team had only one shot at it.

In each of the two matches, one team flared its approach out to the right, didn't carry the ridge, and wound up having to chip up and over the ridge and down into the bowl.  Only the eventual champions made the proper play ... settling for a tee shot to the back left quadrant, and then putting into the bowl where they had the ridge for a backstop.  Easy 3 for them.  The other match was halved in 5!

I agree the hole doesn't work as well when downwind with the pin tucked behind the right bunker in the bowl.  You definitely cannot be left of the hole, Mike Whitaker and I hit putts for 10 minutes at all different lines and couldn't get one close. 

The next time I played it downwind, I purposely played to the right of the green.  Was a pretty easy up and in, but man did I take some shit from my group for bailing out on a 120 yard par 3.

[Josh Tarble]

I'm trying to remember correctly, but if the pin is back right couldn't a pretty good option be to take an extra half club? That way you're chipping back up hill to the pin? Granted you're not putting for birdie but still seems relatively safe.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm trying to remember correctly, but if the pin is back right couldn't a pretty good option be to take an extra half club? That way you're chipping back up hill to the pin? Granted you're not putting for birdie but still seems relatively safe.

Josh,

The problem with discussing golf is that "theory" is worthless.

Like Mike Tyson stated, "everyone has a game plan until they get hit"

Crafting a strategy and executing it are two different things, especially under pressure.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pete,

Try it from 157 if you think 120 was difficult.

The left side of that green presents a formidable defense in one's mind, especially into a wind or with a right to left wind.

I still think the back left of that green is the most difficult hole location to get to.

It takes nerves of steel and an incredibly good swing to get the ball anywhere near the hole.

Left is dead and has the making of double digits.

This is a hole that can produce high numbers with little effort.

At 74 yards in length, with it's narrowness, slope and contour, disaster left and trouble every where else, that's got to be one of the great par 3's in golf.

As to those who have a plan on how to conquer the hole, let me know what it is and we can bet on the effectiveness of your plan on a daily, hourly or every six minute basis 

It's a world class par 3.

[John Kirk]

My experience was dulled (edit: at the long and narrow par 3 5th) by my ability to hit a go-to 8-iron draw 148 yards.  Twice.  No hole-in-one or even birdie.  Just pars on the sliver at the ridge.

[Bryan Izatt]

Played it twice, last Wednesday and Thursday (same days as Patrick).  On both days it was cool and it was playing into a 15 mph gusty wind.  First day the pin was top left near the corner of the ridge - a diabolical pin position, more challenging than even back left IMO.  It might only be 10 feet between oblivion left and bouncing down through the back.  My shot was just right of the pin and took a big hop off the ridge and disappeared.  I thought it'd be on the 6th tee, but somehow it stuck on the back edge of the green leaving a twister up and across the ridge to a pin that was only a few feet pat the top of the ridge.  Lucky two putt for par.  Tangentially, I thought there were a half dozen or more pins that were very difficult that day. It sure isn't hard to find tough pin positions on any of those greens.

On Thursday, Kyle had planted the pin down in the back bowl to challenge Pat.  Into the wind it's not that hard to get it down there and stop it.  Trouble is it's not so easy to hit it to that small a target into a 15 MPH wind.  Flared a shot right to about pin high and down the hill and was left with a 30 yard pitch over the ridge.  It looked doable with a sideboard left and a backboard.  Got it to about 6 feet and missed.  I must have missed at least a dozen putts around 6 to 8 feet.  I was stroking them where I wanted but misread every one.  Maybe after a hundred rounds and some mapping I might get them figured out.

Back in January the pin was front centre and slightly down-breeze.  It played very easy.

One wonders how average bogey golfers can cope with many of these greens?