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Mike Hendren

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Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« on: March 12, 2013, 10:06:04 AM »
the 8th at Augusta National Golf Club.

Many experts give weight to the relevancy of the second shot in discussing the merit of par fives.  Often, interest is created through the introduction of a hazard, typically water.  The 13th and 15 at Augusta National Golf Club immediately come to mind.

But the 8th is the best on the grounds and perhaps in the U. S.  Standing in the middle of the fairway, hopefully after having flirted with the large right-hand fairway bunker, the fairway rises abruptly and constantly into the horizon, a beautiful and intimidating green wall.  More importantly, the player must now pick both his line and length carefully, as the thin green begs to be approached down its length due to perhaps the most effective use of mounding ever designed and constructed.  The casual golfer will likely be focused on the hill to be scaled rather than the correct line, knowing that a broad expanse of short grass awaits at the top of the hill.  If indifferent he has likely abdicated his birdie possibility and will face a pitch where the ball seemingly migrates forever across the subtly rippled green.  

For the best player to reach the green in two, he must launch a sweeping draw into oblivion, perhaps cheating a little right as left is jail and a certain bogey or worse.   If he choses to lay up, the issue becomes to what distance?  The farther right the player lays up, the shorter his second should be to align himself with the axis of the green which is angled to the inside of the dogleg more than it appears.  If successful he will be left with a full swing to impart the necessary spin to throw a dart at the pin.  Too long with the second and he runs the risk that his pitch will fall slightly short and carom long off the subtle right hand mound at the green's front.  If the player prefers a bump-and-run approach his second will need to be slightly longer as well as further left with no available aiming point.  Again, a test of nerves, judgement and talent.

The length of the second must be increased slightly to readily access a back left hole location or the player runs the risk of his pitch kicking off the left mound and scooting all the way across the green to the right edge or beyond.  The alert player is given the opportunity to identify the  hole location as he walks off the second tee, a nice preview.

Finally, the preferred second shot of the best player will determine his decision off the tee - perhaps the best credential a par five can feature.

I am in love with this hole and can't help but think that few architects would have found it.

Your thoughts on the 8th?  

Bogey

« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 10:20:33 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mark Pritchett

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2013, 10:14:40 AM »
Nice selection Bogey.  I agree with your assessment and the second shot is also tough because, obviously it is a blind one to some extent. 

Very underrated hole. 

Garland Bayley

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2013, 10:21:08 AM »
Was it borderline two shotter when it was created? Seems to me if it was definitely a three shot hole when created, your reasoning needs revision.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike Hendren

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2013, 10:23:40 AM »
Thanks, Captain.  Arguably the first nine at Augusta National Golf Club is full of underrated holes with the 1st, 3rd, 5th and 9th top of mind.  I might add the 2nd even though its wing-nut green could be featured on MTV's "I Love the 70's."

Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike Hendren

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2013, 10:27:46 AM »
Garland, I believe the original 8th played right at 500 yards in 1934.  I'll check Byrd's book tonight. 

I totally whiff on your reasoning comment.  Sorry.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mark Pritchett

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2013, 10:30:27 AM »
500 yards uphill. 

BCrosby

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2013, 10:34:03 AM »
The 8th at ANGC is a vastly under-appreciated hole.

Bob

Zack Molnar

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2013, 10:37:56 AM »
Garland,

I dont think he is arguing that it was great when it was created, he is arguing that is great now, so how the hole played 80 years ago is not relevant, if I am reading his post correctly.

I always find it fascinating that the mounds around the green were removed in the 50's to improve spectator sight lines, and were not restored until the 70's. There is a great picture of the green here. Looks so out of place
http://03547c3.netsolhost.com/WordPress/2012/03/28/masters-countdown-eighth-hole/

Thomas Dai

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2013, 10:41:48 AM »
There are loads - by my count 12 or 13 - 'wing-nut' greens some with roll-offs at the rear at Worcester Golf Club in Worcester, UK.

The first time I played the course the greens just shouted out to me "MacKenzie, 8th at Augusta" and guess who designed Worcester GC in the late 1920's, yip, Dr MacK.

Here's the link to the clubs website. It should take you directly to some photos - http://www.worcestergcc.co.uk/the_course.php

Peter Pallotta

Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2013, 10:42:35 AM »
With writing and analysis that good and clear, you really should sign off as Michael Hendren, Esq. instead of as Bogey.

Peter

Josh Tarble

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2013, 10:43:56 AM »
I just laugh to myself every time I see that 50s and 60s green of the 8th.  It is so unbelievably bad I can't believe anyone ever allowed it to be built.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2013, 10:44:07 AM »
Second shot at number 15 at Pine Valley.
So many choices and such a small landing area for either a long or short lay up.
The slope of that landing area is critical and knowing how penal that green is makes you pucker up before you cab even reach it!!

I have often thought this is the toughest par five I know.

BCrosby

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2013, 10:46:03 AM »
A further historical note on the 8th. Among the greens at ANGC that were changed along the way, it is the only one that has been restored to its original MacK design. (Thanks to Nelson and Fingers.) A fact not unrelated to the hole's current greatness.

Bob
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 10:48:59 AM by BCrosby »

Garland Bayley

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2013, 10:59:15 AM »
Garland,

I dont think he is arguing that it was great when it was created, he is arguing that is great now, so how the hole played 80 years ago is not relevant, if I am reading his post correctly.

I always find it fascinating that the mounds around the green were removed in the 50's to improve spectator sight lines, and were not restored until the 70's. There is a great picture of the green here. Looks so out of place
http://03547c3.netsolhost.com/WordPress/2012/03/28/masters-countdown-eighth-hole/

I took "I am in love with this hole and can't help but think that few architects would have found it." to mean that Alister was better than other architects. But, if it was as reported above at 500 yards when created, it would probably have been a borderline two shotter for Bobby Jones.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike Hendren

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2013, 11:24:22 AM »
Zach and Thomas, thanks for those links. 

Bob, I find it ironic that with all the architects that have worked on Augusta National, Joe Finger was the one who got it right.

P2, you are waaaay to kind.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Will MacEwen

Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2013, 11:28:01 AM »
Good post Bogey.

I think watching second shots trundle in on #8 is one of the best parts of Masters' viewing; even the little pitch shots from those who were short in two seem fairly exacting. 

Weren't the 9s reversed at some point?  8 would make a very dramatic 17th hole, although I think the current layout has a proven track record of fireworks.

john_stiles

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2013, 12:02:57 PM »
Going straight up that hill, that slope, for two shots  would have been very difficult to reach with two shots in 1930s.

MacKenzie described it as a three shot hole up hill.

By 1959 Bobby Jones described it as being able to be reached in two fine shots.

The original 8th had a helluva center line bunker as well for the tee shot.

It has certainly evolved into a fine two shot par 5 for the professionals.

The hillocks bring an interesting amount of luck into the professionals second shots.


Sven Nilsen

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2013, 12:17:00 PM »
Here's the history of the changes to the 8th, followed by Dan Wexler's take on those changes:

1934 - 500 yards - The hole played 60 feet uphill to a punchbowl style green (similar to the 17th at Muirfield) with 9 to 12 foot high hillocks.  At its narrowest point, the green was only 20 feet wide, with a 45-degree turn to the left.

1957 - 520 yards - Supposedly Roberts loved the green at the 8th (nicknamed Jane Russell due to the mounds), but deemed it appropriate to knock down the hillocks for better spectator viewing.  The resulting figure-eight platform green had a vertical drop on all sides.  Bob Jones got angry at Roberts, telling him he was wrecking the course.  For the 1957 Masters, a sign near the green explained that the change was only temporary.

1958 - 530 yards - Cobb was called in after the '57 tournament to rebuild the green and recover the shape created by Mackenzie.  The result was a green flatter and wider than the original.  In place of the legendary mounds, Cobb built two ordinary bunkers because of Roberts' insistence on keeping clear sight lines for the patrons.  Cobb also filled in the old fairway cross bunker and created a new one farther out and to the right.

1980 - 530 yards - After Roberts died in 1977, the club asked Cobb to restore the green again.  When Cobb indicated he could not recall the original shape or contours, Byron Nelson stepped in with Joseph Finger to undertake the job.  He reestablished the punch-bowl green from memory and a few old photos, and even hand-raked the final contours.

2011 - 570 yards - Fazio rebuilt the green once again in 1997, creating a new back-right shelf for a Sunday pin 111 feet from the front and 18 from the right collar.  In 2001, he moved the tee back 20 yards and 10 yards to the right.  The fairway bunker was moved farther down the fairway, doubled in size and deepened, requiring a drive of 315 yards to clear.

Dan's description of the odyssey at the 8th:

"The uphill par-5 eighth has traveled a lot of miles in its 75 years of existence, with its ruin-it-then-fix-it-again evolution representing the closest thing to a genuine architectural fiasco that Augusta National has ever had to endure. Originally built with a uniquely bunkerless, mound-flanked green similar to that in play today, the eighth was emasculated in 1956 when, concerned over spectator viewing and congestion, the club had George Cobb build a new, moundless putting surface which would eventually come to be guarded by bland, strategically insignificant bunkers. The failings of this concept were trumpeted far and wide (including, we are told, by Bobby Jones just as the project was getting started), ultimately resulting in the hiring of Byron Nelson and Joe Finger to rebuild the original green complex, complete with restored mounds and a back left quadrant nearly invisible from the front edge, in 1979.

Inasmuch as the present green can thus be considered “original,” the primary remaining alteration lies in the fairway bunker, which initially was a prominent, centerline hazard before being moved rightward in 1958, then enlarged and relocated once more by Tom Fazio in 2002.  And the precise positioning of this hazard is key, for as Bobby Jones noted shortly after its initial move: “It is important that the ball be kept a bit to the right of center of the fairway…Should [the golfer] play left to avoid the bunker, the player must skirt the trees on the left with his second shot in order to get very near the green.”

During his 2002 work, Fazio also added a tee in close proximity to the 17th green, extending to 570 yards what began life as a semi-reachable 500-yarder upon which those trying to get home in two will, to quote Dr. MacKenzie, “be able to define the position of the green owing to the size of the surrounding hillock.”

Good thing they brought it back.

Better Then or Now?

Theoretically, save for the moving of the old centerline bunker, the present eighth plays very much like the original, with the additional 70 yards of length helping to retain the go-for-it-or-not balance of the 1933 version.  Though the present, quite fascinating putting surface is not truly Jones and MacKenzie’s, it can still be said with reasonable fairness that this, the hole which has seen the most glaring desecration in Augusta’s design history, today plays as close to its original form as nearly any on the golf course."


More here on the course changes (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51383.0.html) for anyone interested.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Chris Buie

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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2013, 12:47:26 PM »
Love the way the old fairway bunker forced a choice on the tee, with the easier carry to the left leaving a tougher second shot if you were going for the green.  One example of the many changes that have eviscerated much of the original intended strategy.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ken Fry

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2013, 01:13:55 PM »
It has to be noted how difficult the stance is on that fairway.  Trying to hit a hard shot with all your weight shifted onto your back foot with a high degree of accuracy while avoiding the quick left shot?

As Bogeyed mentioned, even a lay up is a very tough shot.

Ken

BCrosby

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2013, 01:14:41 PM »
I don't think the version of the 8th in the MacK drawing was built literally as drawn.

Bob

V. Kmetz

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2013, 01:27:56 PM »
I do like the 8th at ANGC...it's a superb hole, but I prefer...

BB #4 as holding the topical crown...depending on your level of ability, you've got to start thinking about that second shot...on your first...and any tee shot yields a few more second shot options than "Yellow Jasmine."

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Morgan Clawson

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2013, 01:42:47 PM »
Bogie -

I checked-out the hole on the fly-over on masters.com.  Cool stuff.

It looks like the second shot requires a little draw to get around the trees at the top of the hill, even with a perfectly placed drive next to the fairway bunker.

And even from the elevated camera view on the fly-over, that green is definitely a small target up there.

I also like the 2nd hole with the Sunday pin placement on the front right.  Loved Oostie's eagle their last year and Phil's a few years back.  Both had to find the gap between the greenside bunkers and let the ball feed right.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2013, 01:59:25 PM »
...  Loved Oostie's eagle their last year and Phil's a few years back.  ...

 ???
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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