Slow play incident, Collegiate style

[Pete_Pittock]

Interesting, New Mexico will be playing in our event... this could be fun.

The University of New Mexico was not at the tournament. New Mexico State was participating (according to Golfstat). Know you are just responding to the original post. 

Also do not know of the format was 18-18-18 or 36-18. Pace of play is more difficult to enforce on a double round, shotgun start, b ut is has been done when a group is really out of position. On a 36 hole day they are walking maybe 10-12 miles and carrying their clubs, and likely trying to conserve energy.

As far as they hit it, they need to be a quarter mile behind the group in front if they are to be considered out of position (excepting 3 pars).

Pete, it was New Mexico, not New Mexico State and the format was 18/18/18. 

Your point about distances is well taken.  #3 is a long par 5 over water.  Some play it as a three shot, but many, with a well placed drive, go for the green in two.  Adds at least 5-10 minutes of wait time for the guys on the tee.  #5 is a short par 4 over water.  Same applies.  With two such holes almost back to back, you have added 10-20 minutes and they haven't even completed 5 holes.  They started to call up the players on #5 to speed it up.

Jim,
My bad. Sorry. When I googled the event + golfstat the 2012 event came up and I didn't catch the discrepancy.

[Carl Johnson]

Carl, does it make a difference in your opinion if the team is not financially supported by the university?  The Cal golf team does not receive ANY funding according to the coach.  All of their expenses are paid for by fund raising.  I think until sometime around 10 years  ago they were actually a club sport at Cal.  One thing that is really different is that the college golf teams sort of work out their own schedules.  The Cal team now has 3 1/2 weeks off.  They just need to be in a certain number of tournaments every Fall and Spring. . . .

Jim, good question.  First, correct me if am wrong, but now that you mention it, did I not read a story about this team recently - I'd guess either in Sports Illustrated or the New York Times?

Regarding the substance of your question, which is very fair (and please keep in mind that this answer is "off the top of my head") . .  . .  This tread started out on a rules call/slow play issue.  My first comment was a little off track.  Continuing on the track.  From the standpoint of Cal, which has many, many, many thousands students (and a beautiful campus, which I visited for the first time last fall), only 10 to 15 students, I would guess, on the men's golf team are a financial drop in the bucket.  I assume that Cal's official lack of financial support has to do with either Title IX issues, most likely, or the state of California's finances, less likely.  Nevertheless, I think it is laudable that others have stepped up to support those students who want to play for Cal on a golf team.

Still, looking at it from the standpoints of both a great educational institution, such as Cal, and of the service to the individual students, I have to question justification of "slow play" based on, "these guys may be going pro," for several reasons.

First, regardless of who is paying the freight, is it reasonable to let these guys (and in many cases gals) think they might really make a great (or even good living) on a pro tour?  Even if Cal is not paying, they have some responsibility because it is "their team," even if only a handful of the student body.

Second, particularly because the Cal golf team, as I understand it, operates somewhat outside the school's jock bureaucracy, I think this would be a great opportunity for the supporters of the team to reach way beyond, and that somewhere in that reach would be a broader lesson about life and golf that would include such things as figuring out where my game might take me, how to be a good "player" and get there (wherever that is), and how etiquette comes into play in golf and life.  I'm sure I've seen it espoused here before by others, but I think pace of play is essentially an etiquette issue, that the etiquette is just as important a part of golf as it is of life.  (Sorry, but I am old and old fashioned).

[Jim Nelson]

Carl, does it make a difference in your opinion if the team is not financially supported by the university?  The Cal golf team does not receive ANY funding according to the coach.  All of their expenses are paid for by fund raising.  I think until sometime around 10 years  ago they were actually a club sport at Cal.  One thing that is really different is that the college golf teams sort of work out their own schedules.  The Cal team now has 3 1/2 weeks off.  They just need to be in a certain number of tournaments every Fall and Spring. . . .

Jim, good question.  First, correct me if am wrong, but now that you mention it, did I not read a story about this team recently - I'd guess either in Sports Illustrated or the New York Times?

Regarding the substance of your question, which is very fair (and please keep in mind that this answer is "off the top of my head") . .  . .  This tread started out on a rules call/slow play issue.  My first comment was a little off track.  Continuing on the track.  From the standpoint of Cal, which has many, many, many thousands students (and a beautiful campus, which I visited for the first time last fall), only 10 to 15 students, I would guess, on the men's golf team are a financial drop in the bucket.  I assume that Cal's official lack of financial support has to do with either Title IX issues, most likely, or the state of California's finances, less likely.  Nevertheless, I think it is laudable that others have stepped up to support those students who want to play for Cal on a golf team.

Still, looking at it from the standpoints of both a great educational institution, such as Cal, and of the service to the individual students, I have to question justification of "slow play" based on, "these guys may be going pro," for several reasons.

First, regardless of who is paying the freight, is it reasonable to let these guys (and in many cases gals) think they might really make a great (or even good living) on a pro tour?  Even if Cal is not paying, they have some responsibility because it is "their team," even if only a handful of the student body.

Second, particularly because the Cal golf team, as I understand it, operates somewhat outside the school's jock bureaucracy, I think this would be a great opportunity for the supporters of the team to reach way beyond, and that somewhere in that reach would be a broader lesson about life and golf that would include such things as figuring out where my game might take me, how to be a good "player" and get there (wherever that is), and how etiquette comes into play in golf and life.  I'm sure I've seen it espoused here before by others, but I think pace of play is essentially an etiquette issue, that the etiquette is just as important a part of golf as it is of life.  (Sorry, but I am old and old fashioned).

Carl, all interesting points, but I think I need to ask a question then clarify what I was saying.

First, the thread was started because I found it somewhat unfair that one player out of a bunch of players was called out and penalized for slow play.  Golf can be unfair, I get that.  But you could have likely penalized a bunch of players for the same thing, but it was not done.  I think others have a good argument that an example needs to be made.  I agree but I think it needs to be more systemic making the application of the somewhat arbitrary rule more fair. I would say it starts with the coaches getting together and setting a standard and sticking by it.

Second, regarding Cal golf, turning pro etc as an excuse for slow play, I think you misunderstand my statement.  No excuse really, just an observation of human nature.  These guys really care and are really good.  I guess the best analogy I can make is it's like an arms race.  If someone could prove you posted better scores by playing faster, everyone would pick up the pace.  Instead, they watch golf, the Golf Channel, read the magazines etc which all say you should be committed, understand the putt from all sides etc, etc.  The only way this whole endeavor speeds up is if they start assessing penalty strokes for finishing over a certain amount of time, say 4.5 hours.  You can bet they'd be hustling. 

Third, having met the Cal team and some parent and coaches, I believe they are getting that advice.  Proof is in the pudding (I know, another old guy here).  Three of the guys are in the highly ranked business school, and it seems they are all headed to graduation.  I talked to one parent and his son is playing in the Masters this year but plans on graduating in 2014, then chasing his dream.  With a Cal degree, I'd say he has a bright future and was absolutely thrilled when he received his Masters invite.  His goal is to be low amateur.  How cool is that.  Gary Williams on the Golf Channel gave a shout out to the Cal team last week and mentioned that they are achieving great success without being a golf factory.  Well, they seem to be producing great players, great students and from my eyes, great citizens.  Congratulations to Coach Desimone, the parents and particularly the young men.  Maybe not a factory, but rather a place where they are crafting players who are good, but also understand so are lots of others.  Chase the dream but be prepared for life.  Go Bears.

[Carl Johnson]

Carl, does it make a difference in your opinion if the team is not financially supported by the university?  The Cal golf team does not receive ANY funding according to the coach.  All of their expenses are paid for by fund raising.  I think until sometime around 10 years  ago they were actually a club sport at Cal.  One thing that is really different is that the college golf teams sort of work out their own schedules.  The Cal team now has 3 1/2 weeks off.  They just need to be in a certain number of tournaments every Fall and Spring. . . .

Jim, good question.  First, correct me if am wrong, but now that you mention it, did I not read a story about this team recently - I'd guess either in Sports Illustrated or the New York Times?

Regarding the substance of your question, which is very fair (and please keep in mind that this answer is "off the top of my head") . .  . .  This tread started out on a rules call/slow play issue.  My first comment was a little off track.  Continuing on the track.  From the standpoint of Cal, which has many, many, many thousands students (and a beautiful campus, which I visited for the first time last fall), only 10 to 15 students, I would guess, on the men's golf team are a financial drop in the bucket.  I assume that Cal's official lack of financial support has to do with either Title IX issues, most likely, or the state of California's finances, less likely.  Nevertheless, I think it is laudable that others have stepped up to support those students who want to play for Cal on a golf team.

Still, looking at it from the standpoints of both a great educational institution, such as Cal, and of the service to the individual students, I have to question justification of "slow play" based on, "these guys may be going pro," for several reasons.

First, regardless of who is paying the freight, is it reasonable to let these guys (and in many cases gals) think they might really make a great (or even good living) on a pro tour?  Even if Cal is not paying, they have some responsibility because it is "their team," even if only a handful of the student body.

Second, particularly because the Cal golf team, as I understand it, operates somewhat outside the school's jock bureaucracy, I think this would be a great opportunity for the supporters of the team to reach way beyond, and that somewhere in that reach would be a broader lesson about life and golf that would include such things as figuring out where my game might take me, how to be a good "player" and get there (wherever that is), and how etiquette comes into play in golf and life.  I'm sure I've seen it espoused here before by others, but I think pace of play is essentially an etiquette issue, that the etiquette is just as important a part of golf as it is of life.  (Sorry, but I am old and old fashioned).

Carl, all interesting points, but I think I need to ask a question [Jim, I'm not sure what your question is] then clarify what I was saying.

First, the thread was started because I found it somewhat unfair that one player out of a bunch of players was called out and penalized for slow play.  Golf can be unfair, I get that.  But you could have likely penalized a bunch of players for the same thing, but it was not done.  I think others have a good argument that an example needs to be made.  I agree but I think it needs to be more systemic making the application of the somewhat arbitrary rule more fair. I would say it starts with the coaches getting together and setting a standard and sticking by it.

Agreed 100 percent - that is, whatever the competition standard is, it should be reasonable, clearly communicated to everyone prior to the competition and uniformly enforced.  I've never officiated a golf match, and don't ever expect to, but it has always seemed to me that a penalty for slow play would be difficult to administer, given all of the variables that go into play.  How do you decide who in a group is at fault?  How do you decide what fault is?  I know the PGA Tour has rules, but I'd hate to be the one making a call.  In one sense idenfifying slow play is like Justice Potter Stewart defining pornography: "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."  (Or something like that.)  Of course, that sort of standand would not be acceptable to any golfer.

Second, regarding Cal golf, turning pro etc as an excuse for slow play, I think you misunderstand my statement.  No excuse really, just an observation of human nature.  These guys really care and are really good.  I guess the best analogy I can make is it's like an arms race.  If someone could prove you posted better scores by playing faster, everyone would pick up the pace.  Instead, they watch golf, the Golf Channel, read the magazines etc which all say you should be committed, understand the putt from all sides etc, etc.  The only way this whole endeavor speeds up is if they start assessing penalty strokes for finishing over a certain amount of time, say 4.5 hours.  You can bet they'd be hustling. Right, I understand.  

Third, having met the Cal team and some parent and coaches, I believe they are getting that advice.  Proof is in the pudding (I know, another old guy here).  Three of the guys are in the highly ranked business school, and it seems they are all headed to graduation.  I talked to one parent and his son is playing in the Masters this year but plans on graduating in 2014, then chasing his dream.  With a Cal degree, I'd say he has a bright future and was absolutely thrilled when he received his Masters invite.  His goal is to be low amateur.  How cool is that.  Gary Williams on the Golf Channel gave a shout out to the Cal team last week and mentioned that they are achieving great success without being a golf factory.  Well, they seem to be producing great players, great students and from my eyes, great citizens.  Congratulations to Coach Desimone, the parents and particularly the young men.  Maybe not a factory, but rather a place where they are crafting players who are good, but also understand so are lots of others.  Chase the dream but be prepared for life.  Go Bears.

Good luck to the Cal players in golf competition and in life.  In an earlier post on this topic I mentioned I'd been on the Cal campus for the first time last fall.  Reason: I was there to attend my nephew's wedding in Berkeley.  He graduated with an MBA from Cal's business school last year, or maybe 2011, and is remaining in the area to work.  We stayed at the Durant Hotel, which you probably know is essentially on campus and has a very fun bar/grill room (Henry's?).