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C. Squier

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Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2013, 12:01:19 PM »
I know many raters who joined their club both locally and nationally as a result of their first (rater) visit.  That probably doesn't fit in well with JK's decade old annual tirade, but it is true. 

William_G

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Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2013, 12:06:35 PM »
Barney, Bill raises a good point.  GW's most redeeming characteristic used to be that it was a weekly, whereas everything else was a monthly.

Of course, that's just another kick in the gut for GW, and part of the problem.  That prior advantage was obliterated by the internet and online publication.  They're all hourlys now. 

Dave, I think hourlys work best for you as you are on here at all hours, LOL

Personally I still enjoy what I missed while doing something else by reading a summation in a publication.  8)

It's all about the golf!

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2013, 12:07:09 PM »
I know many raters who joined their club both locally and nationally as a result of their first (rater) visit.  That probably doesn't fit in well with JK's decade old annual tirade, but it is true. 

I know a couple of raters who joined Dismal River after visiting with me.  It is not a perfect science.  

Mike Sweeney

Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2013, 12:14:13 PM »

I do not have the same problem with Golf Digest because they provide worth to the courses they rank.  Getting on their list sell more memberships than any cost associated with hosting their panel.  Once again to bring this back to me, there is absolutely no doubt that the ranking of Victoria National in the top 100 of Golf Digest played a role in my joining the club despite living 70 miles away.  Digest delivers value.

Please show us the specific data, rather than anecdotal, that Golf Digest provides more value than Golfweek to private golf clubs.

You always leave out the fact that private golf clubs can control who they let on a golf course. They can say no to raters and/or they can choose to charge raters.

C. Squier

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Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2013, 12:14:53 PM »
I know many raters who joined their club both locally and nationally as a result of their first (rater) visit.  That probably doesn't fit in well with JK's decade old annual tirade, but it is true. 

I know a couple of raters who joined Dismal River after visiting with me.  It is not a perfect science.  

What about all of the extra revenue from raters who support the pro shop while visiting?  I can easily hypothesize that private club members who are also raters would visit far fewer courses annually if they weren't rating.  A tee time has a marginal cost of near zero if the book isn't full, but a golf shirt/hat is tangible.    

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2013, 12:15:11 PM »
This is the quote that first led me to believe that Kingsley was losing potential members because they had access to other courses by being a rater. This is from one of the most traveled golfers in the history of the sport and yet he says he just doesn't have time to travel back to Traverse City.  The quote, it is not important who, is from 2005 which correlates to the birth of my rants.

"My rounds at the Kingsley Club rank among my top 3-4 for most fun ever.  It is as much fun as playing NGLA in my book.  I owe a lot to Mike DeVries for being such a good host, I loved the course so much I thought about becoming a national member but alas I cannot travel to Traverse City enough to justify it.  If I lived in Chicago, I would definitely be there in an eyeblink."





John Kavanaugh

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Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2013, 12:18:17 PM »

I do not have the same problem with Golf Digest because they provide worth to the courses they rank.  Getting on their list sell more memberships than any cost associated with hosting their panel.  Once again to bring this back to me, there is absolutely no doubt that the ranking of Victoria National in the top 100 of Golf Digest played a role in my joining the club despite living 70 miles away.  Digest delivers value.

Please show us the specific data, rather than anecdotal, that Golf Digest provides more value than Golfweek to private golf clubs.

You always leave out the fact that private golf clubs can control who they let on a golf course. They can say no to raters and/or they can choose to charge raters.


You need to talk to your Afghani friends about implied rights.  The genius of Golfweek is that they send it for free to the people behind the counter week after week creating an illusion of importance. 

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2013, 12:22:17 PM »
I know many raters who joined their club both locally and nationally as a result of their first (rater) visit.  That probably doesn't fit in well with JK's decade old annual tirade, but it is true. 

I know a couple of raters who joined Dismal River after visiting with me.  It is not a perfect science.  

What about all of the extra revenue from raters who support the pro shop while visiting?  I can easily hypothesize that private club members who are also raters would visit far fewer courses annually if they weren't rating.  A tee time has a marginal cost of near zero if the book isn't full, but a golf shirt/hat is tangible.    

Now Golfweek is even giving out shirts to their panel removing the need to buy from the pro.  I sincerely hope than no one bought the travel bag that Golfweek was pedaling.

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2013, 12:24:12 PM »
I know many raters who joined their club both locally and nationally as a result of their first (rater) visit.  That probably doesn't fit in well with JK's decade old annual tirade, but it is true. 

I know a couple of raters who joined Dismal River after visiting with me.  It is not a perfect science.  

What about all of the extra revenue from raters who support the pro shop while visiting?  I can easily hypothesize that private club members who are also raters would visit far fewer courses annually if they weren't rating.  A tee time has a marginal cost of near zero if the book isn't full, but a golf shirt/hat is tangible.    

Now Golfweek is even giving out shirts to their panel removing the need to buy from the pro.  I sincerely hope than no one bought the travel bag that Golfweek was pedaling.

I'll take that as a concession to my point, unless you know golfers who own just one shirt. 

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2013, 12:30:02 PM »
Clint,

I'm giving you a pass on your position that raters buying shirts is good for the game and a sacrifice in kind on their part.  Back in the day some guys even whined about their cost to travel to all these courses.  I like shirts and I like travel so I don't get the argument.

I know some guys who comp Pro's at the restaurants they manage so they can play at private courses.  I bet they buy shirts.  Using your logic the owner of the club should be happy the pro gets a free meal in exchange for the worthless tee time.

Bart Bradley

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Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2013, 12:30:54 PM »
I know many raters who joined their club both locally and nationally as a result of their first (rater) visit.  That probably doesn't fit in well with JK's decade old annual tirade, but it is true. 

I know a couple of raters who joined Dismal River after visiting with me.  It is not a perfect science.  

What about all of the extra revenue from raters who support the pro shop while visiting?  I can easily hypothesize that private club members who are also raters would visit far fewer courses annually if they weren't rating.  A tee time has a marginal cost of near zero if the book isn't full, but a golf shirt/hat is tangible.    

Now Golfweek is even giving out shirts to their panel removing the need to buy from the pro.  I sincerely hope than no one bought the travel bag that Golfweek was pedaling.

John:

Visited 4 courses this week.  Payed green fees at all 4.  Bought shirts at 2, and a hat at 2.  Nobody at any of clubs knew I was a rater.  Belong to 3 private golf clubs.  Unless I am the exception that proves the rule, you're just wrong.

Bart

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2013, 12:33:07 PM »
Bart,

Has being a rater ever played a role in your travel business?

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2013, 12:37:31 PM »
When we book raters overseas and they get comped, we get paid less because we charge a percentage of the total bookings as our fee.

Bart


C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2013, 12:39:11 PM »
Clint,

I'm giving you a pass on your position that raters buying shirts is good for the game and a sacrifice in kind on their part.  Back in the day some guys even whined about their cost to travel to all these courses.  I like shirts and I like travel so I don't get the argument.

I know some guys who comp Pro's at the restaurants they manage so they can play at private courses.  I bet they buy shirts.  Using your logic the owner of the club should be happy the pro gets a free meal in exchange for the worthless tee time.

I thought we were just dissecting revenue streams, not psychology?  If psychology is back in the game, then we need to revisit the basic economic principle that golf courses must realize benefit greater than a greens fee, otherwise they wouldn't comp.  You can suggest that some clubs/pros are fooled by some illusion, but an industry as a whole can't be in the dark to what you believe is true.

I'm really not looking for a debate, just pointing out some obvious counterpoints that you've selectively not posted to a complex issue.

Lou_Duran

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Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2013, 12:47:27 PM »
Wow, Jud, you really don't understand Barney or this issue at all, do you?  You had to be either kidding or disingenuous with that remark...Barney is the last guy in the workd who would think that way. 

Mr. Schmidt,

Are you implying that you understand Barney?  If so, you may first wish to inform him, and then, a good many of us on this site who may have met the man yet have no clue would benefit from your knowledge.

The argument that raters deprive the industry of needed revenues is certainly of contemporary populist times, but does it make sense?  I am assuming that Mr. Kavanaugh knows simple arithmetic- hopefully things aren't so screwed up in IL and IN that he at least has to estimate jobs and submit proposals to his government friends in order to get all that public money flowing into his coffers (I know, he cares for all his optimally diverse crews, paying excellent, above-market wages and benefits BEFORE he takes a penny for himself).

The math goes something like this.  There are some 4,000 private courses and perhaps a universe of 3,000 raters (probably quite a few less relevant to this topic since a number of raters are industry insiders with far superior access).  So, if all the raters are motivated by free golf and eschew joining a private club, that is depriving the average club of .75 memberships, say $2-3k initiation, and maybe a bit more annually.  I know that there are mix and location issues involved, but this probably overstates the loss because significant number of raters remain members of private clubs.  Any organization sweating that little money can't be considered a going concern.

Given that few courses are operated anywhere near close to capacity and costs are mostly fixed at the incremental levels we are talking about here, comp rounds even at public facilities are mostly inconsequential.  The math: 12,000 courses, 3000 raters, 20 rounds per rater avg. = 60,000 rounds or 5 per course.  Assume that only 20% are on the candidate list, 60,000 rounds/2,400 courses = 25 comp rounds per course.  Again, even if those free rounds precluded paying customers from playing, the amount of money ($1-2.5K) is inconsequential.

So, what is really bugging JakaB?  I have some training in psychology, but no idea, just guesses.  Might it be that he enjoys the attention?  Perhaps he gets a jolt from pulling someone's chain?  Boredom?

BTW, David, I paid for a subscription to GW for over 20 years since the early '80s and through part of the time I was on their panel.  I considered it to be a good, timely source of information on competition and golf courses which was not then readily available from other sources.  It became less useful for me as the internet fleshed out and I lost interest in tournament golf.  While I still follow the rankings with interest, I would not pay for a subscription again.  Tough industry it is in- plenty of glossy, well-written regional and local publications available for free at all golf course bathrooms and lobbies- but I hope GW finds a way to remain relevant (and, therefore, viable). 

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2013, 12:49:22 PM »
It is fun letting people play for free.  I'm sure Pros wouldn't charge anyone who asked nice if they could get away with it.  It makes people happy and brightens everyones day.  I personally have received over $10,000 worth of free golf and lodging from my association with raters.   I love it.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2013, 12:51:26 PM »
Lou,

Why aren't raters comped at rater camp if these rounds have no worth?

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2013, 12:56:34 PM »
When we book raters overseas and they get comped, we get paid less because we charge a percentage of the total bookings as our fee.

Bart



Thank you for bringing some levity to the discussion.  Obviously you would be perfect for a panel of anonymous raters.

C. Squier

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Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2013, 12:57:59 PM »
How does buying a shirt at Course A instead of Course B help the game, especially since a large portion of the shirts bought at Course A (if it's exclusive) wind up on ebay anyway?  Ever look around on there?  Who else is selling all these brand new Merion shirts?

When course B is your home club, you probably don't make it a habit to buy a shirt every time you visit.  As for the Merion shirts, of the dozen or so listed the vast majority are either used or 2013 US Open shirts.  I'd be willing to bet, "not a rater" to your question.

Bart Bradley

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Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2013, 12:59:20 PM »
John:

I believe that an anonymous panel would be ideal and likely produce a better list.  But I don't know of such a thing, you?

Bart

Ken Fry

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Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2013, 01:01:27 PM »
My simple reply to all this discussion is as follows:

I've subsrcribed to Golweek in one form or another for many years because:  I don't want swing tips.  I don't need club testing done by 30 random people.  I enjoy the golf course profiles.  I enjoy tournament coverage from pros down through college.  Did I say I don't want 20 pages of swing tips?

Golfweek is a business.  They must do certain things to survive like any print publication.  Are they good for the game?  They highlight a hell of a lot more in their weekly issue to bring different corners of the game to the golfing public than the other monthly publications.

I would drop Golf Magazine and Golf Digest before dropping Golfweek.

Ken

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2013, 01:12:59 PM »
John:

I believe that an anonymous panel would be ideal and likely produce a better list.  But I don't know of such a thing, you?

Bart

It is out there with some research and word of mouth.  I think we all know where Streamsong rated before Golfweek published it's latest list.

RJ_Daley

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Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2013, 01:15:31 PM »
Let's say the Daily Racing Form came out weekly.

Let's say you are in the dentist office waiting.  You are currently neither a golfer or a horse race fan or bettor.

You only have two choices of something to read while waiting.

Would you pick up the Golfweek mag, or the Racing Form?  Which is more likely to draw you into trying the sport/activity?

I don't have the answer, just wondering which might be thought of as more effective at helping expand their industry.

With the weekly posted results of tournaments in amatuer and professional golf. globally, I'd have to think that Golfweek has a strong comparison basis to The Racing Form in the type of data and information it puts out.  It is just that The Racing Form has far more data in minutia to list.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #48 on: March 11, 2013, 01:38:13 PM »
Are the racing forms for races already completed?

Lou_Duran

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Re: Is Golfweek helping the game or just helping themselves?
« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2013, 02:12:58 PM »
Lou,

Why aren't raters comped at rater camp if these rounds have no worth?

Who is making the argument that comp rounds have no worth, Straw Man?  Unlike some on this site, I don't assume that the industry is populated by a bunch of incompetent stupids.  And as Mike Sweeney alludes to earlier, the clubs determine who, how, and when they comp rounds.  Just like when you market your paving services and negotiate contracts, you make a judgment on what you're giving up relative to what you're expecting to receive.  There are many clubs, private and public, which do not comp raters, particularly in the high season (but most of them probably comp architects, superintendents, PGA pros, GMs, vendors, etc., of which there are many more than raters).  Of those that do, apparently the net of the value of what they hope to receive against the cost of what they might be giving up is favorable, otherwise they wouldn't do it.

As to rater camps, you'd have to ask the resorts or GW.  Perhaps it is to offset the marginal and opportunity costs of hospitality, F & B, special functions, and block of times they have to set aside for a large group.  I must confess that I don't understand the economics which DSchmidt provided- I'd hate to think that the margins at GW are indeed that thin.     

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