Greatest in the World. Who belongs in the conversation?

[Mike Hendren]

Bill, thanks for asking.  First, to consider CPC anything less than great is to pick a knit.  I have never had a better day on a golf course.  Thrilling and exhilarating.  Who am I to have been so fortunate.

I so enjoy reflecting on my time there and the golf course itself.  Nonethless among the courses I've played or seen, IMHO it is a not insignificant notch below Shinnecock Hills, The Old Course and Augusta National Golf Club.   I would also give a slight nod to Pebble Beach Golf Links, Crystal Downs, Sand Hills and National Golf Links of America.  At this point I should reserve the right to be wrong!

Given CPC's place in my limited pecking order and the fact that I've yet to visit England, Ireland and Australia (and haven't played Muirfield) I'm reluctant to include it on a world's greatest list.  Then again, there's always Pine Valley.

I think to be considered among the "world's greatest" a course must be elastic enough to be enjoyable and playable for the mid-to-high handicapper, yet challenge the world's best.  The Old Course, Augusta National, Crystal Downs  and Sand Hills are exemplary in that regard.  Perhaps Shinny is too tough and NLGA too easy (fortunately we'll soon see!).  Pebble Beach is a little tougher to peg. I can't wait to visit Merion during this year's U. S. Open and suspect that it might make this group as well.

CPC can be had by a low handicapper (Messrs. Gracely and Duran come to mind), much less a professional.   Its par fives struggle to even be considered half par holes for the better player.  I did not find much challenge on the greens, other than my lack of talent.

Hope my comments are insightful.  Again, really just picking a knit with the Preds and Wild knotted at zero in the first period.

Mike

[Will Lozier]

I think to be considered among the "world's greatest" a course must be elastic enough to be enjoyable and playable for the mid-to-high handicapper, yet challenge the world's best.  The Old Course, Augusta National, Crystal Downs and Sand Hills are exemplary in that regard.  Perhaps Shinny is too tough and NLGA too easy (fortunately we'll soon see!). 

CPC can be had by a low handicapper (Messrs. Gracely and Duran come to mind), much less a professional.   Its par fives struggle to even be considered half par holes for the better player.  I did not find much challenge on the greens, other than my lack of talent.

Mike,

How can you claim that Crystal Downs or Sand Hills are any more a challenge to the world's best than CPC?  Also, isn't TOC to be had by tour pros unless the wind blows?  Have you played CPC in any sort of weather? 

Lastly, consider ANGC in it's 2000 form...wouldn't it be just as susceptible to the pro of today?  Yes, it's greens are always a challenge - certainly moreso than CPC - but essentially the only difference I see between these two courses in terms of difficulty is that one chose not to extend itself, or plant trees to narrow fairways to ridiculously proportions, while the other, because it hosts professionals every spring in a super high profile tournament, perpetually chooses to do just that!

Cheers

[Mike Hendren]

Will, your points are well thought out and sensible. I appreciate your comments.

One likely irrelevant observation:  I can't fathom a  professional golfer missing the massive 16th green at CPC while the 17th at Pebble Beach gives them fits.  Not to say the latter is the better hole, just saying one is garanimals architecture, the other isn't.  I'd also rather take my chances with the 15th at CPC than the 7th at Pebble Beach in a howling wind. 

Crystal Downs is a tough call I admit.  But, some putts and  pitches there are downright frightening.  I was never afraid at CPC.

I'd really be curious is anyone on this site has lit up Sand Hills from the trips.  Other than Gene!

Cheers your ownself.

Bogey

[Will Lozier]

Will, your points are well thought out and sensible. I appreciate your comments.

One likely irrelevant observation:  I can't fathom a  professional golfer missing the massive 16th green at CPC while the 17th at Pebble Beach gives them fits.  Not to say the latter is the better hole, just saying one is garanimals architecture, the other isn't.  I'd also rather take my chances with the 15th at CPC than the 7th at Pebble Beach in a howling wind. 

Crystal Downs is a tough call I admit.  But, some putts and  pitches there are downright frightening.  I was never afraid at CPC.

I'd really be curious is anyone on this site has lit up Sand Hills from the trips.  Other than Gene!

Cheers your ownself.

Bogey

Bogey,

I haven't played Pebble, only worked as an assistant up the road where I was fortunate enough to play CPC twice.  I strongly disagree on your assumption that PGA pros would hit the 16th green with ease...especially in any sort of wind.  I hit driver the first time I played it (I was playing to around a 2 at the time) in only a 10-12 mph wind hurting from the left - from about 11 o'clock - and hit it pure about 30 feet right of the pin, making a fairly easy par.  The next time, in calmer conditions, I tried 3-wood and fell short twice eventually carding a 7!  I have to say, that shot is still the most thrilling shot I've ever played which, for me, speaks to the hole's greatness.  Not an easy shot by ANY stretch!

Yes, the 17th at PB is a tiny target - two actually!  I would argue that there is very little strategy there though as opposed to CPC 16 where there are two distinct routes to the green (granted the weather would have to be EXTREME for any pro to consider the second).  I'll assume you are referring to PB 17 as being the "garanimals" architecture?!

Haven't had the pleasure of playing CD, SH, TOC, or ANGC (have been) - but, would love to hear further thoughts on what makes the latter two so much more difficult than CPC, and therefore, great - particularly TOC and ANGC pre-2000.  Especially the par-5's at ANGC since you find CPC three-shotters to be half-par holes.

In full discosure, I will admit my "greatness" definition places far less emphasis on difficulty, or perhaps just doesn't consider the difficulty factor in terms of professionals over the last (two) decade(s). 

Cheers

[Mike Hendren]

Will, my criterion was elasticity, not difficult. 

I can't comment on your Augusta 2000 argument.  All I know is what was in and on the ground when I last visited in 2010.  Arguably, it is a testament to the quality of the golf course that it remains among the greatest courses in the world notwithstanding the fact that is has been under the knife it's entire existence. 

As for your experience with the 16th at CPC I'm envious that you were a 2 at the time.  I was once a 4 myself.  Ironically, I read a great quote by John Wesley, the founder of Methodism Saturday night:  "Bring me a worm that can comprehend a man and I'll show you a man that can comprehend God."   I'll submit there's a similar gap between a 2 handicapper and tour professional.  Perhaps my opinion is shaded by the fact that I'm 2 for 2 at carrying the 16th - well at least into the front bunker (when I was a 12 or so). 

CPC is easy on the nerves and doesn't require the watchmaker's touch that is absolutely essential at the four courses you mention.  Those courses stealthily steal half strokes time and again.  By comparison, what you see is what you get at CPC.

The par fives at Augusta are the best set in the world, in my opinion.  Legitimately important second shots even when laying up and dicey thirds that are often no easier than the second played to the green.  The dispersion of scores at Augusta's three shot holes is far wider - eagle to triple than at CPC.  Even a chump like me can make a par or bogey at CPC.  I want no part of the third shot at Augusta's 2nd (when the pin in on a wing of the wing-nut), 13th and 15th and the 2nd shot at 8. 

My $0.02 worth (which is about all it's worth).

Enjoying the banter.

Bogey