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Patrick_Mucci

Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2013, 11:12:59 AM »
Jeb

Don't forget that 7,000 at 2,600 ft in Arizona par 72 differs from 7,000 in New Orleans at par 70.

Golfers, in general, hit the ball considerably further today than they did in 1963.

And courses, in their attempt to attract and retain members, have to appeal to the broad spectrum and unfortunately, have to keep up with the iconic clubs which tend to hold tournaments for the better and best players, which translates to more length.

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2013, 11:13:18 AM »
Paul
How many sets of tees were at Wolf Point?

Chicago Golf has 2 1/2 sets

cheers

Wolf Point - The same number of members  :).  But when we played, I enjoyed you and Don picking different places to play from on each hole, not necessarily the tees that were put out for the owner.

Chicago Golf - they have a few more members  ;)

If I owned a course, I would probably follow Double Eagle Club philosophy with no tee markers.  However, I do understand when clubs have 400+ members, people like tee markers so I would limit it to 3 and have different combinations on the card.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 11:15:53 AM by Paul Jones »
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2013, 11:17:35 AM »
Garland,

What percentage of your golfing dollar are you willing to sacrifice so other people can enjoy the game in a manner that you do not?  It is not possible to play golf without also paying for others enjoyment  The field is to large and our individual skills to varied. Honestly, are you an only child?

 ???


Is that a yes?

No, that's a I have no idea what he is trying to get at. It seems he has some assumptions about enjoyment of the game that are unclear and possibly untrue.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2013, 11:26:08 AM »
Pat,

I think the question is what percentage of guys playing the tips actually should be playing from that yardage.  In other words, if you were the pro in charge of sending guys out to various tees based on ability, how many would you send to markers over 7000?  What percentage of golfers have an average drive of 270+? I know there are clubs like Pine Tree that cater to strong players, but that is the exception not the rule.  By the way how many tees does Pine Tree have, and at what yardage?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2013, 11:28:06 AM »
Pat,

I think the question is what percentage of guys playing the tips actually should be playing from that yardage.  In other words, if you were the pro in charge of sending guys out to various tees based on ability, how many would you send to markers over 7000?  What percentage of golfers have an average drive of 270+? I know there are clubs like Pine Tree that cater to strong players, but that is the exception not the rule.  By the way how many tees does Pine Tree have, and at what yardage?

Jud,

Should only bad golfers have the right to shoot 85?

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2013, 11:28:21 AM »

  By the way how many tees does Pine Tree have, and at what yardage?

That's the information I am interested in.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2013, 11:30:30 AM »
Pat,

I think the question is what percentage of guys playing the tips actually should be playing from that yardage.  In other words, if you were the pro in charge of sending guys out to various tees based on ability, how many would you send to markers over 7000?  What percentage of golfers have an average drive of 270+? I know there are clubs like Pine Tree that cater to strong players, but that is the exception not the rule.  By the way how many tees does Pine Tree have, and at what yardage?

Jud,

Should only bad golfers have the right to shoot 85?

If it costs 95% of players an extra 10% in price and 15 minutes in time every time they tee it up? Yes IMO.  Of course now that you can't sweep the ball into the hole with a broom all bets are off...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2013, 11:38:05 AM »
Jud,

There is no evidence that back tees cost a private club any more money.  You need to take into account the number of golfers who join because of the competitive elasticity.  Also, why do you think it takes a scratch golfer longer to shoot 85 than most other golfers to shoot 95?

I really don't think most poor golfers understand how much fun it is to watch a fine golfer play poorly.  I have had some of the finest golfing moments of my life watching good friends have compete meltdowns while playing a course much, much more difficult than they have experienced in the past.  Hell, I've heard many high handicaps say that they have all the fun playing so poorly.  If you can why can't everyone else?

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2013, 11:48:28 AM »
John,

Which costs more and takes longer to walk, 120 acres or 132 acres?  Which costs more to maintain?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2013, 11:53:41 AM »
John,

Which costs more and takes longer to walk, 120 acres or 132 acres?  Which costs more to maintain?

How would you rather divide up the costs, through 75 member or 250 members? 

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #60 on: March 05, 2013, 12:07:44 PM »
John,

Which costs more and takes longer to walk, 120 acres or 132 acres?  Which costs more to maintain?

How would you rather divide up the costs, through 75 member or 250 members? 

So you're saying that it's circular...hmmmm......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAs2PBL1RsA

Would you rather have 10% fewer members for the same price?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #61 on: March 05, 2013, 12:17:00 PM »
I grew up on a 6000 yd course where I was pissed if I didn't break par and moved to a 7000 yd course where I am delighted to break 80.  It hacks me off to think that there are other golfers out there that want me to struggle with all the trappings that come with being a par or better golfer just so they can save a few bucks.  I can't tell you how much more relaxing it is knowing that a ball OB or a couple of three putts isn't going to ruin your day.  Golf is really more fun when mistakes don't haunt you for the rest of the round.

Would I rather have 10% fewer members for the same price?

Not if that 10% were the 10% who can stomach playing a round of golf with me.  It would scare me to death if my regular club said they were cutting 25 members and keeping dues the same.  I like having members.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 12:23:34 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #62 on: March 05, 2013, 12:32:43 PM »
When did John Kavanaugh become the most reasonable and sane person in the treehouse?

Why are so many people opposed to letting players of different skill levels enjoy a balanced challenge? And are there examples of courses that have succeeded by decreasing their yardage elasticity? We've got a couple threads going about this subject and it seems like everyone's speaking in hypothetical generalities. Are there actually courses where memberships have become happier, comraderie has improved, and course maintenance has become cheaper after removal of tees that were used regularly by even a small portion of the membership?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #63 on: March 05, 2013, 12:45:58 PM »
Why are so many people opposed to letting players of different skill levels enjoy a balanced challenge?

Jason:

Your idea of "balance" is just off balance.

To build a balanced course, all you'd have to do is build every hole thirty yards longer than the last, to ensure that every player was playing one or two holes at the limits of his reach, and a variety of lengths of approach.  If you did that, it wouldn't matter much whether the total yardage was 6500 or 6800 or 7400.

That's actually what I suggested for the Rio 2016 course -- and for the TPC project in Dallas.  But, the powers that be have chosen not to let me pursue the idea to date.  Perhaps they're as wise as you; or perhaps they just don't like to see the status quo challenged.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #64 on: March 05, 2013, 12:49:52 PM »
V.

Pacific Dunes #4: Par 4, 463 yards, how do you make it "near equivalent" for all players? The fairway bunkers present the same questions? The green side bunkers present the same questions? The landing zone is 30 by 30 for all? The approach shot presents the same questions?

How is this puzzle near equivalent for all?


Into the wind, it's out of reach in two shots for pretty much everyone.

Downwind, it's within reach for most male golfers.

The challenges of the hole have little to do with the bunkers.  It's all in the tilt of the green and not wanting to approach from the left, vs. having to be careful of the hazard all along the right -- which is the same for everyone.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #65 on: March 05, 2013, 12:59:34 PM »
Tom, again, I'm not saying that every hole/course should present exactly the same challenge to every player regardless of skill, or that the player going off the forward tee should have the same approach club in hand as the player going from the tips.

I'm just saying that there's value in using enough sets of tees that players of varying skill levels can still hit interesting shots without facing a total slog. Not seven sets of tees, and not a formula based on having everyone face an equitable challenge. But a reasonable diversity of tees based on the demographics of a course's membership or clientele that allows every player to hit some different shots and have some fun.

There's nothing controversial about my point of view. It's what the huge majority of courses do, or at least try to do. The ideas I'm opposed to are things like a single set of tees for all, like what Garland suggested (or what Pat asked about on the other thread), or these prescriptive rules about eliminating tees over 6500 or so from all courses. Maybe I'm just being trolled by even responding to such ideas...

But there is something sort of beautiful about John's vision of a game where high scores aren't exclusively the domain of the poor player, players of different abilities can get together and have fun without feeling overwhelmed or bored, the spirit of supporting your fellow player's enjoyment exists, and everyone moves at the right pace in concert with the rest of the course. I just never imagined I'd see him as such a visionary idealist.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #66 on: March 05, 2013, 01:26:58 PM »
V.

Pacific Dunes #4: Par 4, 463 yards, how do you make it "near equivalent" for all players? The fairway bunkers present the same questions? The green side bunkers present the same questions? The landing zone is 30 by 30 for all? The approach shot presents the same questions?

How is this puzzle near equivalent for all?


Into the wind, it's out of reach in two shots for pretty much everyone.

Downwind, it's within reach for most male golfers.

The challenges of the hole have little to do with the bunkers.  It's all in the tilt of the green and not wanting to approach from the left, vs. having to be careful of the hazard all along the right -- which is the same for everyone.

I have to run quick..but..."what Tom said" is my specific response, but my own general response is that there are a bevy of factors in combination with the "Distance" of things from Tee to X to Green that allow challenge to translate over different players playign at different tee yardage.  Tom mention wind and green angle (perhaps the ultimate governor of approach play) but its also sight and camouflage (maybe the longer hit gets the blinder shot?) and ball lies in places where each group might drive it.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #67 on: March 05, 2013, 01:39:19 PM »
Jeb

Don't forget that 7,000 at 2,600 ft in Arizona par 72 differs from 7,000 in New Orleans at par 70.

Golfers, in general, hit the ball considerably further today than they did in 1963.

I sure as hell don't!   In 1963, like you, I was 21!   ;D

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #68 on: March 05, 2013, 01:46:02 PM »
As many have said fewer tees limits your market. There is no way around it. Creative marketing can only do so much (and I believe it is wildly ignored in courses with a local market) and you simply cannot afford to lose a a single player these days.

It WOULD be nice if you could simply set a course up at 6800 6200 and 5400 but the reality is, whether from a skill perspective, pure ego or lack of physical strength, you miss a bunch of people on either end and would have a big number mixing and matching tees to find "their yardage". Bottom line is you are dealing with people paying money for a product and they will be less than flexible.

Myself and the guests arriving today will use all 5 sets of tees to arrive at a course that will measure a little over 5600 for one guy, about 6450 for another and about 6800 for me.

Anyone looking for a silver bullet is on a wild goose chase.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #69 on: March 05, 2013, 01:46:59 PM »
V.

Pacific Dunes #4: Par 4, 463 yards, how do you make it "near equivalent" for all players? The fairway bunkers present the same questions? The green side bunkers present the same questions? The landing zone is 30 by 30 for all? The approach shot presents the same questions?

How is this puzzle near equivalent for all?


Into the wind, it's out of reach in two shots for pretty much everyone.

Downwind, it's within reach for most male golfers.

The challenges of the hole have little to do with the bunkers.  It's all in the tilt of the green and not wanting to approach from the left, vs. having to be careful of the hazard all along the right -- which is the same for everyone.

For those of us who are directionally challenged more than distance challenged, the fairway bunkers are very much a significant risk reward factor. Likewise the green side bunkers. My plays of the hole have been in calm conditions.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #70 on: March 05, 2013, 02:33:23 PM »
these prescriptive rules about eliminating tees over 6500 or so from all courses.

I wouldn't lose any sleep worrying about this happening.  I'd lose sleep about finding an owner with the balls to build a new course without tees beyond 6800 for fear of losing business from Digest reading hacks who can't scare 80 from any tee but don't feel their manhood in full unless they're playing a "championship test" of golf.  Did you actually read the responses on the yardage thread?  This is from a group of much better than average players and the number of folks who regularly play from 7000 yards is something like 2%.  So therefore by your logic all courses need to accommodate these players?  What about the .00001% who need an 8000 yard course to have the full measure of their game tested?  Why are you not crying for their right to enjoyment?  
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 02:40:15 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sean McCue

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2013, 03:22:11 PM »
We have six sets of tee markers at CCCP that allow the par 72 course to play from 5366 to 7400 yards.  Great idea from a course playability side, absolute nightmare from a setup standpoint!!
Be sure to visit my blog at www.cccpgcm.blogspot.com and follow me on twitter @skmqu

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2013, 03:28:13 PM »
these prescriptive rules about eliminating tees over 6500 or so from all courses.

I wouldn't lose any sleep worrying about this happening.  I'd lose sleep about finding an owner with the balls to build a new course without tees beyond 6800 for fear of losing business from Digest reading hacks who can't scare 80 from any tee but don't feel their manhood in full unless they're playing a "championship test" of golf.  Did you actually read the responses on the yardage thread?  This is from a group of much better than average players and the number of folks who regularly play from 7000 yards is something like 2%.  So therefore by your logic all courses need to accommodate these players?  What about the .00001% who need an 8000 yard course to have the full measure of their game tested?  Why are you not crying for their right to enjoyment?  

What logic of mine insinuated the conclusion you've drawn for me?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2013, 04:54:25 PM »
I don't care that much about multiple tees based on length. I want multiple tees with different approach angles so that the holes have different looks. That is what I love about Ballyneal. There are many holes that play completely different based on the tee you choose.

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many sets of tees are really needed?
« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2013, 10:51:17 PM »
Here's a re-post of a post from my early days here at GCA.com, long enough since that the sting of being labeled a moron is no longer instructive.

All the architects here talk eloquently about design in terms of accommodating a number of constraints in a flexible system, expressed in tee boxes, pinnable locations, cut heights, irrigation schemes, and the other variables that the course operator can manipulate to provide a varied product from day to day and for members and guests of different interests.

What is not done in golf, but is in world class entertainment venues like Disney, is layering information technology on top of the management structures.  Now, at Disney, you get an RFID that is used to whisper your daughter's name in Snow White's ear, or has Nemo say hi to you, by name!  Snow White is there in the flesh, but now she's augmented with information technology.

The closest personalization concept expressed on this or other recent threads is crafting cumbersome paper scorecards that vary par by handicap ranges.  People, this is the 21st Century!  The rest of the world is innovating around Big Data and we are innovating around Big Paper?

maybe this old post is naďve, but if nothing else, instead of a scorecard with a bunch of lines with handicap ranges, can we at least agree that the pro shop should at least print a personalized scorecard for the group with the pars listed based on each player's handicap?  I know it's kind of like using your teleportation super power to cross a busy street to catch a bus....but at least we're using our super powers  :P

Here's a little thought exercise based on some of the themes from this site: the corrupting influence of yardage and handicap, the strategic downside of multiple tee boxes, technology.

What if every time you went to the course, you got to play the strategic challenge the architect intended, regardless of whether you hit the latest hot ball and big clubs, or an old set of hickories, with a swing grooved through 70 years of practice, or a swing on the way to a 70 year groove?

First, you wouldn’t be on a conventional course available today.  Sure, you probably have a choice of tee boxes, but does every tee box bring into play the key strategic challenges?  Or, would you be willing to move from gold to the white to the blue from hole to hole to experience the challenge as it is meant to be?  Willing?  How would you even know?

Imagine, however, that instead of 5 tee boxes, and one choice before the round, you could provide the Pro at the shop some simple information about yourself, how far you drive, your standard yardages on your irons, maybe whether you are comfortable with forced carries or not, and in an instance, the Pro would hand you your own personal scorecard, with the recommended or required tee locations for you for every hole, tee selections that make sure you are playing the clubs, and facing the strategic challenges the architect intended?

How would this work?

1st, the simple info at the pro shop:

Driver:   300
3-Iron: 225
5-Iron: 195
7-Iron: 165
PW: 135
Comfortable w/Hazards: Y

My playing partner:

Driver: 240
3-Iron: 185
5-Iron: 165
7-Iron: 145
PW: 110
Comfortable w/Hazards: Y

Out of the printer comes our scorecards, and we’re off.

The first hole, a Par 4 with water on the right, a bail out area on the left, with the preferred approach into the green from the right.



On the scorecard, for me, Tee location “M” (the tips).  For my partner, Tee location “I”.  Why?

The architect designed the first hole to be a mid-length par 4, designed for Driver, Mid-Iron.  From the tips, the yardage is 490.  From tee I, it’s 410.  (You see, it’s right there on the scorecard.) Both players are out on the course, and the hole is playing to the design.  The strategic option exists for each: play to the right, challenge the water for the better approach, or stay safe mid-to-left and take a lesser angle into the green.  If we both hit our “typical” drive, My partner is closer in, but that’s good, he needs to be closer to fly a mid-iron.  We finish the hole.  On to number 2.

As the opener, the strategy on number 1 was simple.  On number 2, the architect has conceived a hole with 4! Strategic puzzles.  On any given day, he expects you to be confronted with 1 of these, and based on your abilities, your selected tee location will present that challenge to you.

The hole is a par-4 with a flat plateau.  There’s a pot bunker in the middle (1), just before a diagonal fall off to a section of fairway that slopes right and away towards a creek (2).   A level layup area sits in front of the creek that crosses in front of the green (3).  The green is up a slight hill (4), protected on the right by a bunker.  The green is more receptive to a shot from the left of the fairway.



The architect has conceived four distinct challenges.

1. Driver to 1, the pot bunker. The strategy: lay up in front of the bunker, hit the full driver potentially landing in the bunker, or try to play to the left of the bunker for the advantageous approach.
2. 3 wood to Bunker (or Driver to 2).  Here the screws tighten.  Play less than a driver to stay on the plateau, when you know that you can clearly drive the bunker?  Play the driver to the left and use the terrain to run out to the layup area?  
3. Driver to 3, the layup area.  Here, is the wise choice to fly the layup area, or to use a lesser club to run down the slope.
4. Driver to green.  The most diabolical of all.  Who can resist the 1 in 100 shot to fly the green on the short Par-4, even with the creek and trap waiting?

Unbeknownst to you, the Pro has set this to challenge 4 today, drive the green.  You, the long hitter, are hitting from tee location “D” (290).  Your partner is at “B” (230).  (In the group behind you, the testosterone fueled bunch has asked to play the long course.  They’ll be teeing it up at the tips all day.  See what they are missing?  They probably don’t.)

And so the day goes, every hole, a tee location selected for you, based on your abilities and preferences, aligned with the architect’s strategic intent.  

What is different, if anything, in this approach, relative to just moving the tee markers?

First, the assumption is that the architect knows this is how the course is going to be operated.  Holes are designed with multiple challenges in mind, a la Thomas’ course-within-a-course.  The architect is working with the freedom in mind that to a large extent, the strategic challenge will be accommodated by placing each golfer at the appropriate starting point, or at one of many starting points the hole supports.

Second, some of the challenges of equipment and ball flight are overcome.  Of course, you can only keep building the tee grounds back so far, but for advances that make the white tees easier and easier for the average golfer, you don’t have to rebuild the white tees, just let those golfers tell you where you need to put them.

Third, the course is always setup to play a variety of ways. No need to move the tee locations up, just specify a different spot.

Fourth, to the extent golfer’s begin to understand that the course will respond to length by getting longer, the golfer’s need to increase length will be lessened.  

Fifth, there’s great opportunity to mix and match the challenges between groups.  On some holes, players with different abilities may be starting together, on others, apart by great distances.  Earlier in the day, when the wind is calm, players play one place, but as the wind picks up, the “windy tees” are brought into play. A group with different skill levels may be able to play from the same tees, each facing strategic challenges conceived by the architect, but different based on their skill.  The options are largely unlimited.

Sixth, the four horsemen of the dumbing down, Par, Yardage, Slope, Rating Index are put on notice.  Every round could conceivably have a different slope, rating, and yardage, and even variations in Par.  

So that's my thought exercise.  
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright