[Jason Topp]

Any GCA's take these factors into account in terms of the length of holes?

I do, especially if you add wind to the equation.  One thing I think my current club's design does very well is accomodate men's distances from 6300-7400 yards in a walking friendly manner so that the walk is very reasonable and pleasurable regardless of the tees you play.  On many holes the next tees are scattered to the side of the previous green so that the walk to each of them is pretty similar in length. 

http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/windsongfarmgc/aerial.htm


The club was designed as a club that walks.  I wonder, however, whether the routing was compromised to achieve this aim.  The front nine seems very back and forth on the course and the hole distances are relativelysimilar.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, how long do you think Augusta National would be if you played off the very front of every Masters tee?   

Bill,

Certainly longer than 6,400 and shorter than 7,400.
However, it would be your last visit to ANGC if you were seen teeing off on the par 3's from other than the specified markers.
I suspect the same would be true on the par 4's and par 5's.

It is clearly NOT an option.

Off the very back of every member tee?   

Longer than 6,400 and shorter than 7,400.

But again, the same dilemma occurs.

I suspect that you wouldn't make the turn before you were driving back down Magnolia Lane.

Perhaps there could be a set of composite tees to hit that 6,800 yard target.

I don't think so.
I think you'd have to play a composite based upon where the tee markers were located that day.
Either a Masters tee or a Members tee, but, nowhere in between.

[Patrick_Mucci]

That's a bingo! 

I think some folks would be surpised to know that 1) All yardages at ANGC are measured to the front of the green


Then you'll be surprised to learn that that is ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT.

Yardages are measured from the tee markers to the mid point of the green.

And it states that right on the scorecard for the Masters tees and the Members tees.

2) The course rarely plays at the full yardage during the tournament. 


Mother Nature usually dictates or influences that decision.

For every tee box where there were markers near the back of the box, there was one where it was at the middle or front. 

Some tees (#2, #14 and #16 jump out in my mind) were long enough to have a relatively dramatic difference in yardage. 
Maybe as much as 30yds.  I know for a fact that #4 played off the back of a members tee one day last year. 

Tees are moved around, depending on various factors.
# 4 plays about 170 from the Members tees and about 240 from the Masters tees.
That's a pretty big differential into that green.

On a windy day, prudent setup would have the tee moved up.

I think the majority of the difference in yardages comes from some of the more auspicious changes of the last decade. 

Some of the disparity comes from the shortening of the Members tees from their original length

Think #1, #5, #10, #11, #18.  Those holes alone probably account for 40-50% of the yardage difference between the members and masters tees.
They account for about 35 % of the difference and some of that is due to the shortening of the Members Tees.

Here are the original yardages, the yardages circa 1999 and today's approximate yardages


                  Opening                        1999                         Today

           Members     Masters     Members     Masters     Members     Masters         


1              380              400           365           410           365           455

5              425              440           405           435           400           455

10            410              430           450           485           450           495

11            390              415           345           455           400           505

18            395              420           375           405           385           465

There's no cumulative change in the distance from the Members Tees on those holes.
They play at the same total yardage today, that they played at in 1934
While the Masters tees on the same holes play an average of 54 yards longer per hole


I think the course is far more flexible than Patrick is willing to give credit.

How would you know ?

[Ben Sims]

Patrick,

Hole yardage on sprinkler heads and in caddy books are to the front of the green.  The scorecard is as you say.

Whether Mother Nature dictates or not, my point still stands. The course is rarely, if ever, the full yardage in any competitive round.  7400 yds at Augusta is quite meaningless as a true number to compare the course to any other.  

Thank you for agreeing with me re: #4.  That hole alone accounts for approx 7% of the yardage differential.  As I said earlier...flexible.

Taken from a pure mathematical perspective, each hole should account for 5.55% of the delta between members and masters tee. Six holes would be a third of that measurement. Yet 1, 4, 5, 10, 11 and 18 use up 42+% of that difference. In my mind, that means that Augusta National doesn't have the disparate length problem you say it does.  In fact, on a great number of holes, the difference isn't all that bad.

You make the case that Augusta needs another tee set in between masters and members.  I say, mathematically, that isn't a great assertion.  The disparity isn't all that great except on a small number of heavily lengthen holes.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Hole yardage on sprinkler heads and in caddy books are to the front of the green.  The scorecard is as you say.

Whether Mother Nature dictates or not, my point still stands. The course is rarely, if ever, the full yardage in any competitive round.  7400 yds at Augusta is quite meaningless as a true number to compare the course to any other.  

Actually, it was 7,445 and is probably longer today.

Thank you for agreeing with me re: #4.  That hole alone accounts for approx 7% of the yardage differential.  As I said earlier...flexible.

You call being able to play the Masters tees at 240 or the Members tees at 170 "flexible" ?

And, you want to context this discussion in the narrow realm of 4 days out of 180 or so days.

When you play ANGC you have but two choices, Members tees or Masters tees and the differential is about 1,100 yards.

Taken from a pure mathematical perspective, each hole should account for 5.55% of the delta between members and masters tee. Six holes would be a third of that measurement. Yet 1, 4, 5, 10, 11 and 18 use up 42+% of that difference. In my mind, that means that Augusta National doesn't have the disparate length problem you say it does.  In fact, on a great number of holes, the difference isn't all that bad.

You just don't know what you're talking about.

The disparities, other than holes like # 3 are enormous unless you don't think that 120 yards on # 7 is significant. or 65 yards on # 9, 60 yards on # 14, 70 yards on # 17.   Even # 8 has a 90 yard difference.  So, I don't know how you can claim that there's no disparate length.  And, when you add in the influence of topography, the distances on some holes get lengthened all the more.

You make the case that Augusta needs another tee set in between masters and members.  I say, mathematically, that isn't a great assertion.  The disparity isn't all that great except on a small number of heavily lengthen holes.  

Ben, you just don't know what you're talking about.
1,100 yards, or 6,365 versus 7,445+.
Please, the distances are enormous, cumulatively and individually.

If the average golfer has a 10 yard difference in his irons, and that may be generous, a 60 yard different takes and 8-iron approach and makes it a 2-iron approach.  A 9-iron to a 3-iron, a wedge to a 4-iron.  And you don't think that make a significant difference in the play of the course ? ?  ?   Especially into those greens.

At 40 yards, that's a 7-iron to a 3-iron.

If that's not enormous, you should be grounded.

The distances are significant with the exception of # 3 and # 12.

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