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Bill McKinley

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2013, 10:26:47 AM »
OK here goes...

Augusta National - Dr. Mac/Bob Jones
Cypress Point - Dr. Mac
Pine Valley - Crump
Merion East - Wilson
NGLA - CBM

Winged Foot West - Tilly
Chicago Golf Club - CBM/Raynor
Seminole - Ross
LACC North - Thomas
Oakmont - Fownes

Sand Hills - C&C
Ballyneal - Doak
The Golf Club - Dye
Pinehurst #2 - Ross
Shinnecock Hills - Flynn

Kapalua Plantation - C&C
Eastward Ho - Fowler
Pacific Dunes - Doak
Praire Dunes - Maxwell
Canterbury - Strong


2016 Highlights:  Streamsong Blue (3/17); Streamsong Red (3/17); Charles River Club (5/16); The Country Club - Brookline (5/17); Myopia Hunt Club (5/17); Fishers Island Club (5/18); Aronomink GC (10/16); Pine Valley GC (10/17); Somerset Hills CC (10/18)

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2013, 10:51:42 AM »
I don't think you guys seem to understand what Architecturally Interested seems to mean! ;D ;D

Put a lot of thought into this and argued about it for hours over dinner and drinks last night.... in no particular order:

Augusta National - constant updates, the masters, maintenance practices, etc
Crystal Downs - routing, greens
Cypress - combination of different landscapes, and the ultimate california coast scenes
Pine Valley - multiple archs, the ultimate in hard
Sand Hills - destination club, minimalism, influential in modern construction
Pinehurst #2 - routing, greens, constant tinkering, restoration
Prairie Dune - the greens, without PD you wouldnt' have Sand Hills, or Bandon
Pac Dunes - Modern links
Ballyneal - inland fescue, ground game
NGLA - templates, the original great course
Shinny - dude... its a 10, and you never even see the water
Friars Head - combination of landscapes, manufactured and natural
Shadow Creek - the ultimate in $$$
Sawgrass - stadium golf, its lack of functioning for resort play v tournaments
Oakmont - difficulty, parkland
Bayonne - Landfill, location in NY harbor
Sheep Ranch - is it even a golf course?!
Harbor Town - its different and narrow
Streamsong - 36 hole routing w 2 architects, reclaimed site
WFW - flat, man sized, parkland
Tobacco Road - bigger and bolder
Wild Horse - the ultimate in simple, public golf A+ model
Garden City - flatish ground, greens at grade
Desert Forest - desert golf
Merion East - Small property

honerable mentions: The Desmond Murihead Master Piece, Rawls Course, LACC, Oakland Hills, Yale, Cal Club

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2013, 11:06:52 AM »
Jaeger,

# 6 at Shinnecock = water

V. Kmetz

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2013, 01:26:54 PM »
A number of "25" is just too "listy-dogmatic" for me to

A. NGLA -  too early, too fundamental, too explicit of style, not to include
B. Fisher's
C. Yale
D. Blind Brook :

I respectfully disagree with those posters who have said..." One or two CBM-Raynor-Banks-Templates and that is it." Both on an interest level and whatever "educational" purpose this list might have, there is I think a requirement that the full breadth and variation between the iterations of repeated Templates be included.  The Templates are not "seen-it-once" copies; (there are no copies of a golf hole) they are discoveries of principles within the originals...principles of diagonals, of risk and reward, of distance control, of judging ground, of having discipline to fly a ball to a target that is not the hole and the creativity to "feel" a roll out or a result that you cannot interpret empirically..of what it is (for each player) to control your golf ball.  If this list were to be meaningful to some future persons, I would want them to experience the two iterations of the Biarritz (not found at NGLA) that are at Yale and Fisher's...both retain the A. chasm properties, B. 210 - 225 long chasing hit. C. extraordinary visual combination of beauty and intimidation...but in largely different ways, in vastly different sites, the front pad maintained in different manners, one plays largely uphill, the other slightly down... Similar comparisons abound between all three courses - I think it's vital for the purposes of such a list to get as full experience of this fundamental style and how its applied inland, at the shore, and with as many of the 26, 27, 28 (?) identifiable templates as there are, for they all end up examining a different sort of Golf conduct. 

To amplify this desire to really "show" someone something with my list I included Blind Brook, perhaps the most unique of all "First Engineered" styles, for Blind Brook is, by intent, the Template course in gentler miniature.  Conceived as an older gentleman's walking course, it is the softer, more purely fun version of the shot demands found on the established Raynor tracks. It's Cape is 276 uphill yards around a Willow pond...It's Short is semi blind to volcano green with a bathtub-style thumbprint. It's Road plays downhill over the most appealing sweeping bank.  It's Punchbowl has its actual putting surface banked into the rear wall of the bowl, creating a tier shelf.  It has a double-fairway/Raynor's Prize dogleg that is only 375 yards, it's Alps is nearly a Drive and Pitch.  Don't get me wrong, it's Redan still plays 200 into a headwind and is the toughest "3" of its kind, and these shorter, gentler versions create their own challenging delights; however as to unique takes on the templates, which reduce their "rigor," Blind Brook should be seen by the benficiaries of such a list.


E. Harbour Town
F. Sawgrass

Following on the historic importance of the Template courses and the Engineered style, Dye's landmark work, which is now enmeshed with  golf's elite history, is a necessary visit for anyone using this list to understand innovation and contemporary re-imagining of a fundamental style.  It is a style too, to which the public responded favorably (or at least with interest) and thereby became a whole new language that impacted design at probably hundreds of anonymous or lesser known courses in a sublime manner. If I knew Dye's work better, I suspect I would include at least one of his inland courses to show off these properties when NOT on the SE coast.

G. Siwanoy
H. Pinehurst 2
I. Aronimink
J. Seminole

Donald Ross and his work are a synonymous with GCA as a profession as any name can be.  My choices are made to demonstrate his scope and value by: A. his most intact work of an early vintage (1913), that holds most of the genetic code of his extensive subsequent work, recovered fabulously in restoration; B.  his lifelong pursuit of perfection, its historic and popular reputation for meeting that standard, and bringing such a course to bear out of pine forests; C. a course of great challenge and reputation with unique holes for his canon, of which he was most pleased; D. his artistic mix of wind and sand on a premium canvas.  for completeness and variety I thought about including both Wanamoissett and Shennecosset (a public in New London) but these four (4) need little administrative help.

K. Winged Foot West
L. Winged Foot East
M. Bethpage Black
N. Bethpage Red
O. Quaker Ridge

On each of the first two properties, it would be kinda silly, both, practically and expositionally, to not include the second course.  First and foremost the East and the Red are fantastic courses with delightful challenge, and certainly WFE could be in Cucamonga and be held as a fine exemplar of AWT's signatory work.  The Red is admittedly less so, but it has an altogether unique virtue in that the course finds such unique, maximizing use of the ground; it forced Tillinghast to find and route holes that don't often appear in the AWT canon (1, 4, 5, 16).  The "middle stretch" of the course...8-15 is an almost unyielding (only 12 is a par 3) stretch of demanding 2-shotters that can grind you into a medal ball or keep a match close to even, as both parties are likely to give way a couple of times within. The Black of course is Tillinghast's Pine Valley, allowing him the most monumental palette he ever used.

WF West has received adequate support for worthiness to be on such a list and needs no further detailing, but the East is an absolute "must" if its my list.  Interesting?  If "Greens" are any part of that, then WFE is the hothouse of extraordinary AWT green design.  There is something that makes you smile and say "Holy shit" about every single green on the course; and in one-to-one comparison with the bigger brother, the green style isn't as ubiquitously "back to front, triangular;" it's much more varied in its function with the green surrounds and approach requirements.  Owing to this, the East permits -- nay, invites -- many more run-up and ground strategies than the West, allowing much more liberally creative play around the greens than "just miss in front or yer dead." - which the West commands as dogma.  Then there are the individual holes like 2, 4, 5, 10, 12, 13, 15 and 17 which shouldn't be missed, where everything fuses together in refreshingly different, but still "AWT," way.  The recent Hanse-led reclamation of time-encroached green territory, replete with original "square" perimeters, has only made the East that much more capable of being on a worthy list. 

I am as severe a critic of Quaker Ridge as anyone (primarily because of the routing and the 2-7 "OB" rights, the slightly pedestrian finish and the 13 hole gap between 500 yard+ holes) but I cannot deny that the course needs to be seen in what AWT was able to produce with what I feel is a pretty constrained piece of property...4, 8, 9, 11, 13-15 and 17 are Tillie gems, the novelty of back-to-back 3s around the turn and the changes in pleasant meadow-glen property are worthy of my list. I feel just in those 800 acres that comprise all three courses separated by Griffen Avenue, you can demonstrate 2/3rds of Tillinghast's larger oeuvre that will both wow and educate the neophyte and seasoned GCAer.  I gave both Baltusrol courses as well as Hollywood, Essex County, Somerset Hills, Ridgewood, and Hollywood consideration, but if there's any bottling of the list, I thought it could be done with what I put down and know best.

P. ANGC
Q. Pine Valley
S. Oakmont

I visited all three, but never played or advised a player on the grounds. Their scope, their scale, their historic position and the fact that both OV and Oakmont are among the first standards of "Elite Challenge" -- well documented as intended to be so -- make them courses anyone in this realm will eventually be interested by.  Augusta National is something different; but with such a notorious design and renovation history, as well as precise tracking of changes and arguments for and against them, the course is frankly naked in its interest.  It's intended to be interesting and it succeeds - owing to the Masters, Jones, Mackenzie, Roberts or the developed standard of maintenance perfection is inconsequential.  It is a beautiful property, with beautiful fun holes on it.

T. Cypress Point
U. PebBle Beach
V.  Riviera

I was taken aback that Riviera appeared so few times as an appended or substituted course on the first slew of responses.  I think its the most interesting course of them all.  Even if we forget how well it excites play by the elites, there's such an artistic perfection about Riviera -- in use of unique property, in bunkering, in (now) turf, in its figure-eight/shoelace routing along the canyon slope to the floor and in unforgettably frank and challenging holes. Among them, 4,5,6, 10 and 18 are such gorgeous things as to make Riviera included just for their appearance.  The barranca-crossing holes have sort of that old penal steeple-chase feel to them. All of these elements conspire to make the very air enchanting; that this sprightly fragrant private valley holds such a thing as a golf course.

S. ANGC
W.. Garden City
X. Kapalua Plantation course
Y. Stone Harbor (a Desmond Muirhead in South Jersey)
Z. Muirfield Village
AA. Friar's Head
BB. Doral Blue
CC. Trump National Briarcliff
DD. Merion

I love some of these; I really hate two of these (should be no small guess as to which) but each of these are architecturally interesting in their successes and in some cases failures.  This group tests the perimeter of GCA's imagination, with theories old and new, beautifully natural or painfully wrought into being; lake, sea, inland, neighborhood courses, fake islands, trump l'oeil  waterfalls, stone abutments and venerated paths...  Sublime, classic scales and outrageous literal design.  Little greens defended by contour and drives hectored by arcane hazards and 4 club deep behemoth complexes with oceans of sand and bulldozed hazards.  Some fit in a handsome development, some quirkily stand apart from the development that's grown around them.  This latter group is variety.

So it ended up being 30, but if I got around more, I would include many more courses that I've not yet even walked, no less played.  Only Harbour Town, Cypress, Kapalua, and Seminole were listed, where I haven't set foot but admired from afar. That's why some of the, I'm sure) interesting courses that have been offered do not appear.

I'll make an essential 12 sometime later if the thread and discussion bears it.

However, if you got this far, like me, you'll  exhausted.

cheers

vk







 
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Ian Andrew

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2013, 04:07:00 PM »
If I were teaching a class in Golf Architecture ... this was the set I'd select and why.

Pinehurst #2 – value of short grass
Merion – rhythm and flow, routing…
Pine Valley – intimidation, variety, you name it … so many lessons
Shinnecock Hills – foreground, carry angles, lateral movement and green edges in particular
Tobacco Road – use of shock and awe

Pacific Dunes – sense of place, value of discovery in architecture, use of width
San Francisco – it is the master class on scale
NLGA – green contours and conceptual play
Prairie Dunes – incorporating nature into design
Essex CC – value of grassing lines

Riviera – how to make players still need to work the ball
Augusta National – playing freedoms and enticement
Cypress Point – dealing with multiple settings, mimicry, anticipation
Rock Creek – how to build great uphill holes
The Golf Club - the value of simplicity and restraint

"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Mac Plumart

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2013, 05:44:33 PM »
I'd suggest Chicago Golf Club should be on this list somewhere.

I think that it has the best bunker placement of any course I've seen.

Furthermore, I think its geometric shapes and the high quality of the golf need to be considered and studied.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Peter Pallotta

Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #56 on: March 02, 2013, 10:01:24 PM »
VK, Ian - thanks for the very good posts.

Ian - if you taught a class, I hope you'd include Garden City in the list; it might be the most beneficial (for golfers) teaching you could ever do, i.e. if you can help student-architects see that a great course can be laid out over a flattish site, and help them to understand how this is accomplished, you will have done more (future) good for more golfers than you might imagine.

Peter

Ian Andrew

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #57 on: March 02, 2013, 10:09:46 PM »
Peter,

I was stumped on the last one and went with The Golf Club ... Garden City was a better answer ... @#$%

"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #58 on: March 02, 2013, 10:40:48 PM »
Jaeger,

# 6 at Shinnecock = water


Pat - 1 out of 25 reasons i write jokingly, and that is the one you choose to comment on, love it!.... PS found some old aerial photos from Montclair at the Tufts archives, will scan them and email you in the next week.

J

Greg Holland

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2013, 07:45:10 AM »
If I were teaching a class in Golf Architecture ... this was the set I'd select and why.

Sounds like a good topic for a new series on your blog! 

PCCraig

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2013, 08:59:42 AM »
I'm surprised The Country Club in Brookline hasn't even gotten a mention.

Another worth mentioning is White Bear Yacht Club. A wild ride and extremely interesting inland course.
H.P.S.

Josh Tarble

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2013, 09:50:18 AM »
This may be blasphemous, but should Augusta be on this list?  Don't get me wrong, it still holds a ton of merit but to say it's one of the 25 worth studying may be a little strong as the concept seems a bit watered down from the original.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2013, 10:16:37 AM »
Controversial but I'd remove NGLA and replace it with Chicago as a better example of CBM's work, National is such a great site yet the work at Wheaton is superb on a very flat and uninteresting piece of land.
Cave Nil Vino

V. Kmetz

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2013, 10:48:36 AM »
I vexed over that too, JT - whether or not Augusta National is really an education - but in the end; it IS interesting and in the instructive sense, the work on the course is so notorious (intents, revisions, re-routes of holes) and so well-documented that it is, imo, a necessary platform of sharing that interest with others in a fluent way.

Again, first and foremost it has numerous interesting features...the greens alone bear that, no matter what speed.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Jud_T

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2013, 11:03:52 AM »
Controversial but I'd remove NGLA and replace it with Chicago as a better example of CBM's work, National is such a great site yet the work at Wheaton is superb on a very flat and uninteresting piece of land.

Mark,

This is actually a very good point.  I haven't played NGLA so I can't comment on replacing it for CBM, but as far as interesting, strategic courses on flat ground, perhaps Chicago is a much more instructive example than something like Shadow Creek...Furthermore, one might argue that a course like Lawsonia be included to show how building great greens on simple rolling farmland can really elevate a design.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Joey Chase

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2013, 01:01:28 PM »
Controversial but I'd remove NGLA and replace it with Chicago as a better example of CBM's work, National is such a great site yet the work at Wheaton is superb on a very flat and uninteresting piece of land.

Is it not true that Chicago Golf is more of a Raynor course now than a CBM course?  I know they share the style, but the course we play today is a result of Raynor's redo, no?  IMHO you could never exclude NGLA from a list of most interesting architectural courses in the U.S.  

Having said that, I have only visited Chicago, never had the opportunity to tee it up.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 01:04:55 PM by Joey Chase »

Mike Schott

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2013, 02:08:04 PM »
I vexed over that too, JT - whether or not Augusta National is really an education - but in the end; it IS interesting and in the instructive sense, the work on the course is so notorious (intents, revisions, re-routes of holes) and so well-documented that it is, imo, a necessary platform of sharing that interest with others in a fluent way.

Again, first and foremost it has numerous interesting features...the greens alone bear that, no matter what speed.

cheers

vk

Isn't Augusta National one of our greatest second shot courses due to the wild greens? It requires a very well placed approach. Also, 13 and 15 are classic risk/reward par 5's. That along with the grand scale and elevation changes make at very architecturally interesting. Also, even hole most of the holes are different, it's still MacKenzie and Jones' routing.

Josh Tarble

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2013, 02:44:10 PM »
I vexed over that too, JT - whether or not Augusta National is really an education - but in the end; it IS interesting and in the instructive sense, the work on the course is so notorious (intents, revisions, re-routes of holes) and so well-documented that it is, imo, a necessary platform of sharing that interest with others in a fluent way.

Again, first and foremost it has numerous interesting features...the greens alone bear that, no matter what speed.

cheers

vk


Isn't Augusta National one of our greatest second shot courses due to the wild greens? It requires a very well placed approach. Also, 13 and 15 are classic risk/reward par 5's. That along with the grand scale and elevation changes make at very architecturally interesting. Also, even hole most of the holes are different, it's still MacKenzie and Jones' routing.

I probably agree with you that it does belong, but I think it has been altered enough that I think there is an argument to be made.  Sure it is a fantastic second shot course, and the greens are probably deserving alone.  But the way the course has been narrowed by trees and rough has really altered the value of the tee shot.  They have placed more emphasis on length than placement - so even though it is a great second shot course, all second shots are coming in from roughly the same place - which is precisely opposite of strategic width/MacK/Jones's intent.

However, the routing is excellent, because the land is pretty extreme in the total rise and fall - and to traverse that so well is exceptional.

Jim Nugent

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2013, 05:00:23 PM »
This may be blasphemous, but should Augusta be on this list?  Don't get me wrong, it still holds a ton of merit but to say it's one of the 25 worth studying may be a little strong as the concept seems a bit watered down from the original.


Josh, why should the changes affect whether we should study it?

ANGC is not the only one.  Of Sven's original list, I'm pretty sure these courses also were changed a great deal over the years:

Merion
Muirfield Village
NGLA
Oakmont
Pebble Beach
Pine Valley

Josh Tarble

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2013, 05:14:24 PM »
This may be blasphemous, but should Augusta be on this list?  Don't get me wrong, it still holds a ton of merit but to say it's one of the 25 worth studying may be a little strong as the concept seems a bit watered down from the original.


Josh, why should the changes affect whether we should study it?

ANGC is not the only one.  Of Sven's original list, I'm pretty sure these courses also were changed a great deal over the years:

Merion
Muirfield Village
NGLA
Oakmont
Pebble Beach
Pine Valley

Well, are we talking about studying the changes of a course with what was once a very original concept over interesting land, changed to a course with a far smaller piece of that original concept still in the dirt (albeit very manicured dirt) or are we talking about studying one of the most architecturally interesting courses?

Those courses you listed may have been changed, but they still retain their original features, the features that made them very special.

I'm not saying Augusta isn't an incredibly special place because it definitely is, and obviously having never played there I can't say for sure, but is it still the best example of the concept it should be?  I don't know.


Jud_T

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #70 on: March 05, 2013, 09:18:16 AM »
If we set aside the 1 course for each name architect concept, doesn't Seminole deserve a spot?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Josh Tarble

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2013, 09:19:38 AM »
If we set aside the 1 course for each name architect concept, doesn't Seminole deserve a spot?

Would you go Seminole over #2?

Jud_T

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2013, 09:24:49 AM »
Josh,

Haven't played Seminole and it'd be pretty hard to dislodge #2, but apparently his routing and use of the dune ridge is well worth studying.  Why can't we have 2 courses from one GCA if they're 2 of the 25 most worthy of study?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Josh Tarble

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2013, 09:38:20 AM »
Jud,
I have read many comments agreeing with yours as well...I haven't played either (although #2 is on my immediate "list").  I may be inclined to agree with you mainly because the site is so much smaller at Seminole.  To my amateur eye, a fantastic routing is much easier seen at a compact site where any weaknesses would be pretty glaring.


Jason Thurman

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2013, 11:11:58 AM »
I don't think any architect I'm familiar with had as few tendencies as Ross. His designs seem much more varied aesthetically and strategically than any other whose courses I've played. If we can have more than 1 or 2 MacRaynors on this list, there has to be room for several Ross courses if the quality and interest merits study.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.