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Sven Nilsen

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2013, 07:28:40 PM »
Jud:

Doak already did a more comprehensive version of this in the back of AoaGC.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Pete_Pittock

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2013, 07:44:58 PM »
Out - Spyglass Hill; In- Pasatiempo
I don't remember anything that differentiates Spyglass (after it leaves the dunes area) from any other modern course of its age .
Pasatiempo has great flow, excellent use of the land and the greens are okay, too.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 07:49:00 PM by Pete_Pittock »

Bill Brightly

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2013, 07:51:06 PM »
yet another suggestion for the CG Gazetteer...

Sven,  

I'd probably dump Fishers in favor of Shoreacres for Raynor due to his ingenious use of the ravines...

Jud,

You are probably right. Fishers is probably an example of (Raynor) getting a great site and not trying to do too much. So you could add in Shoreacres, Yale and Yeamans in place of Fishers as a better example of his work. Or maybe Fishers SHOULD be in as an example of an architect understanding the effect of wind, and allowing that to be the dominant feature?

William_G

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2013, 07:53:42 PM »
most interesting

add Eugene Country Club due to it's rerouting by RTJ SR. in turning it's tees into green sites and visa versa in essence playing the course backwards..18th green became the 1st tee and in so doing created the risk reward shots over water to the new greens which typified the Jones style....no where else has such a rerouting been done ( except TOC)

drop Spyglass
It's all about the golf!

Tim Martin

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2013, 08:01:33 PM »
yet another suggestion for the CG Gazetteer...

Sven,  

I'd probably dump Fishers in favor of Shoreacres for Raynor due to his ingenious use of the ravines...

Jud,

You are probably right. Fishers is probably an example of (Raynor) getting a great site and not trying to do too much. So you could add in Shoreacres, Yale and Yeamans in place of Fishers as a better example of his work. Or maybe Fishers SHOULD be in as an example of an architect understanding the effect of wind, and allowing that to be the dominant feature?

Bill-Astute observation regarding Raynor's backing off a bit at Fisher's due to the wind.

Bill Brightly

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2013, 08:14:21 PM »
Sven,

We are expecting you to be the final judge here, and come up with THE list, ok?

Mac Plumart

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2013, 09:02:32 PM »
Add Desert Forest, remove Bandon Dunes.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2013, 10:11:28 PM »
Jud:

Doak already did a more comprehensive version of this in the back of AoaGC.

Sven

And, I did a worldwide version with a pretty high threshold when I picked the courses for the Gourmet's Choice in the front of The Confidential Guide.  Most of the courses that I picked for that would qualify here, and it helped that I limited those choices to one per architect.

That said, I think everyone here is too focused on the designer labels, which isn't what's "architecturally interesting".  We are looking for DIFFERENT, and it's entirely possible for a designer to do different things over time.  I am proud of the variety of work I've done over the years, and I'm sure Donald Ross or George Thomas or Alister MacKenzie were all proud in the same way.

Courses I'm surprised no one has mentioned yet (excuse me if someone did):  Los Angeles Country Club, Harbour Town, San Francisco Golf Club, and Tobacco Road (or Caledonia).

Sven, I can't believe you left off Garden City Golf Club and Pinehurst #2 [and don't kick out Seminole for it, Seminole belongs].  Those would both be in my list if I'd had to narrow it to ten, or maybe even to five.

Jud_T

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2013, 10:20:15 PM »
Wouldn't you want something like Shadow Creek or Stone Eagle on the list?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Stewart Abramson

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2013, 10:56:43 PM »
Two of the most architecturally interesting US courses in the sense of creating something from nothing and getting a good result from that nothing are Bayonne and Shadow Creek.

edit: ooops> i should have read the entire thread bfore posting. I see Shadow Creek was already suggested.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 10:58:55 PM by Stewart Abramson »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2013, 11:00:49 PM »
In terms of architecture, CC of York.

A course where both Flynn and Ross provided designs, with Ross getting the nod.

Architecturally, either Harbor Town or Crooked Stick where Pete Dye introduced railroad ties.

Mark Saltzman

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2013, 11:06:47 PM »
Does 'architecturally interesting' = different styles of architecture?

Wouldn't we then want to include, say:

Oakland Hills: example of golden age design modified for the rigors of modern tournament play

The Patriot: Embracing cartball.  Great individual holes that cannot be walked.

I don't know what course best defines the penal school.  I guess something in the middle of RTJ Sr's career?

Jim Nugent

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2013, 12:00:34 AM »
Sven, add Rock Creek Cattle Club to the list.  From everything I read about it, a unique course in a mountain setting that may start/define a new genre.

Definitely take out Fishers -- once they made NGLA the other template courses are variations on a theme. 

In place of Bandon Dunes, put Pacific Dunes: Bandon got the ball rolling, but PD raised the bar. 

Why is Muirfield Village on the list?  Same with Baltusrol. 

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2013, 12:03:52 AM »
Spyglass would probably be the first course I'd drop as well, along with WFE.  Its on the list because its one of the shortest (under 7,000 yards) courses on the GD top 100, yet the resistance to scoring numbers indicate that it is one of the toughest.

If its not the length of the course that makes it hard, then what is it?  Does Spyglass play longer because of the relatively "heavy" air at sea level?  Does the normally temperamental NoCal weather make it harder?  Or does it all come down to the fact that the course is downright penal, due to its combination of trees, water, well-placed bunkers and ice plants and the demands placed on the golfer to execute certain types of shots.  

If its difficulty is due to its design, I think there is something of interest worthy of study in whatever makes this short course play harder than many of the beasts in the rankings.

Contrast Spyglass with Shadow Creek, another "resort" type of course.  SC ranks as the 13th longest course (on the GD 100) on a per-shot basis, but if you look at the resistance to scoring numbers, it comes out 79th out of 100.  So despite being long, it is considered relatively easy (at least compared to the other highly esteemed courses).  Read into this what you will, but it suggests to me that the design at Shadow Creek does little to exacerbate the overriding concern of overcoming the tee to green distance.  

Just some tangential thoughts, but there are some logical extensions buried herein to the distance debate.

Sven

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2013, 12:04:47 AM »
Sven,

We are expecting you to be the final judge here, and come up with THE list, ok?

Bill:

Beyond my paygrade.  But I'll continue to ask people why they made the decisions they did.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2013, 12:18:19 AM »


Sven, I can't believe you left off Garden City Golf Club and Pinehurst #2 [and don't kick out Seminole for it, Seminole belongs].  Those would both be in my list if I'd had to narrow it to ten, or maybe even to five.

Tom:

Seminole and Pinehurst would be first round draft picks (and Garden City probably a second round) if I had put the list together from scratch.  But that's not where the initial 25 came from.

Sven
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 01:47:12 AM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2013, 01:08:42 AM »
Spyglass would probably be the first course I'd drop as well, along with WFE.  Its on the list because its one of the shortest (under 7,000 yards) courses on the GD top 100, yet the resistance to scoring numbers indicate that it is one of the toughest.

If its not the length of the course that makes it hard, then what is it?  Does Spyglass play longer because of the relatively "heavy" air at sea level?  Does the normally temperamental NoCal weather make it harder?  Or does it all come down to the fact that the course is downright penal, due to its combination of trees, water, well-placed bunkers and ice plants and the demands placed on the golfer to execute certain types of shots.  

If its difficulty is due to its design, I think there is something of interest worthy of study in whatever makes this short course play harder than many of the beasts in the rankings.

Contrast Spyglass with Shadow Creek, another "resort" type of course.  SC ranks as the 13th longest course (on the GD 100) on a per-shot basis, but if you look at the resistance to scoring numbers, it comes out 79th out of 100.  So despite being long, it is considered relatively easy (at least compared to the other highly esteemed courses).  Read into this what you will, but it suggests to me that the design at Shadow Creek does little to exacerbate the overriding concern of overcoming the tee to green distance.  

Just some tangential thoughts, but there are some logical extensions buried herein to the distance debate.

Sven



SC is very interesting from the standpoint that it is 100% MANUFACTURED, on a 100% flat site, and you would never know it if dropped in there blindfolded

I think a variety of different approaches to Architecture would make the top 25...just not being "different" as every course is different in some way

How about adding Nanea or Plantation as courses built on lava or Koolau for jungle golf

It's all about the golf!

Alex Miller

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2013, 02:07:40 AM »
Koolau is a trip and one hell of an experience. It'll kick your ass but I've had a lot of fun there.

Tom mentioned LACC, and I'd agree that it could be included. The course within a course concept is something very worthy of study, not to mention it's a world class golf course.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2013, 06:01:04 AM »
For this to work, my opinion is that geographic diversity must be considered. Engines lit...

Augusta National...as a warning.
Bethpage Black...Given that much land, how they arrived at the final product.
Black Mesa...reputation
Cypress Point...really no need to say why.
Dunes (RTJ)...He needs to be represented. I'll let you know if it sticks in a month.
Eastward Ho!...I suspect I'd rather play here than Fisher's, seriously.
Kapalua...mountain and tropical forest concerns in a bundle
Kingsley
Kinloch...ability to subtly move from grunge to pristine and back again. land movement, unique holes
Lawsonia Links...
Merion...
MPCC-Shore Course...The temerity it took to spin the golf course routing 90 degrees
Myopia Hunt Club...Period piece
NGLA...the template structure
Oakmont...the one-and-done & the tree program & the pews and on and on
Pacific Dunes...for the re-introduction of unstable par figures (if par matters at all.)
Pasatiempo
Pebble Beach
Pine Valley...see Cypress Point
Prairie Dunes..template for what can be done on prairie dunesland.
Sand Hills...scion of Prairie Dunes
Seminole
Shinnecock
The Golf Club (Ohio)...
Yale...If there must be a second template course by CBM/SR, this is it.
Coming in 2025
~Robert Moses Pitch 'n Putt
~~Sag Harbor
~~~Chenango Valley
~~~~Sleepy Hollow
~~~~~Montauk Downs
~~~~~~Sunken Meadow
~~~~~~~Some other, posh joints ;)

Michael Whitaker

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2013, 08:57:50 AM »
With NGLA on the list, I think you can knock off Fishers.

However, I'd have no real issues if you knocked off Kiawah Ocean, since TPC Sawgrass is on there (or vice-versa).  

OUCH! One is Macdonald, the other is Raynor...

And, there is nothing remotely similar about Sawgrass and The Ocean Course!  :o
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

David Harshbarger

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2013, 09:26:11 AM »
Wolf Point needs to be in the list.

Different question, what courses absolutely cannot come off the list?
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Cliff Hamm

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2013, 09:50:28 AM »
I did not see a definition of 'interesting'.  To me interesting is not best.  It is not most influential.  It is simply interesting. The most interesting art/wine/music/theatre etc. may not be the best and I might not even like it, but interesting it is.  From that perspective Tobacco Road needs to be not only on but toward the top of the list.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2013, 09:53:39 AM »
Wolf Point needs to be in the list.

Different question, what courses absolutely cannot come off the list?

And why can't they come off?
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2013, 09:59:37 AM »
Cliff:

What do you take off to make room for TR?

David:

What do you take off for Wolf Point?

Alex:

What do you take off for LACC?

Ron:

First question, what is more important, geographic diversity or a range of different types of courses?

Second questions, why Lawsonia over Fisher's?  And why Bethpage over Winged Foot West?

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

David Harshbarger

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Re: The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2013, 10:13:20 AM »
*Augusta National
Baltusrol (Upper)
Bandon Dunes
Crystal Downs
*Cypress Point
Fisher's Island
Friar's Head
Merion
Muirfield Village
*NGLA
Oakmont
Olympic Club
Pacific Dunes
Pebble Beach
*Pine Valley
*Prairie Dunes
*Sand Hills
Sawgrass
Seminole
Shinnecock
Spyglass Hill
The Ocean Course
Victoria National
Winged Foot (East)
Winged Foot (West)

I've starred the courses I think you absolutely could not pull off a list of most interesting architectural courses in the US.  From what I've read I would add Wolf Point, Tobacco Road, Pinehurst #2.  There's a gap in my understanding of the importance of Merion and Baltusrol so they would not make my must include list.

For some of the listed courses I figure 1 of 2 would make a list, like BD or PD, or TOC or TPC Sawgrass, but not clear which.

The ones I star I would argue are incomparable or the greatest in their genre.
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright