[Scott Macpherson]

Dear Jury

I was in St Andrews  a few days ago and had a few minutes to take some snaps of the 'new' road hole bunker and bunkers on the 2nd. I thought you all might like to see them.

My only comments are that overall the workmanship is of a very high quality. The Road Hole bunker looks to be exactly the same size and depth as it was before. Once the turf binds together, most wont notice any change. As for the bunkers on the 2nd, you can see from the photos where the old bunkers were and where the new ones are.

cheers,

Scott





2nd Hole

[V. Kmetz]

Great looks Scott, thank you for posting!

Man, that 2nd/16 green...hope we keep building a few more of those challenges as the years eke on.

cheers

vk

[Bill McKinley]

Thanks for posting Scott. My first impression is that 17 looks very good. Just as you said I don't think many will notice a difference, maybe a bit more collection area into the bunker but not much different. 2 on the other hand looks a lot different and at first look I think it looks kinda weird and out of place. I think the thing that gets me is the 2 twin bunkers side by side. Maybe if there was just one I would like it better

[David_Elvins]

Bill,

You are right about the twin bunkers, there are not a lot of places on the old course that feature bunkers in pairs.

I still think it looks horrible. I don't think anyone on either side of the fence will change their mind on this one.

[Connor Dougherty]

Thanks for the update,

My initial reaction to the 17th is pretty positive. I still believe it shouldn't have been changed but it may not be as bad as I once thought it would be.

Like Bill, I also feel that the 2nd looks weird and out of place but not for the same reason he does. Many voiced on here how they liked the overall connective-ness of the ground at St Andrews and adding subtle contours to the right of the green may ruin that. In your photo it seems that this is sadly the case.

[Joel_Stewart]

I was trying to find a photo to compare the Road hole bunker.  This is the only one I could find.

[Frank Pont]

I am not so concerned about 17, the road hole green bunker had been changed so many times in the last 20 years it was starting to look like a tired Holywood actress. One more facelift won't make that much of a difference anymore. The only thing I really do not like is the edge left of the bunker that Adam Lawrence already had commented on, it looks really artificial.

On hole two I can only age with the others on the forum, what a disaster both strategically and visually. Any student of classic design knows the importance of the use of uneven numbers of bunkers around the green.....

Maybe we should call these new bunkers Pacman 1 and Pacman 2.

[Jud_T]

At least now when Dawson tours the course to survey the changes he'll have a convenient place to rest his balls...in The Teabags....

[Niall C]

Scott

I think it was Faldo who used to play long and left at the 17th in order to get at a back pin position. Does that ridge stop a player doing that ie. maybe forces them to play further to the left ?

Similar question about the bunkering on the 2nd. In one of your photos, it appears as though a play long and right might still allow a putt/7 iron approach. Would that be about right ?

Frank

Uneven numbers of bunkers round the green ? If I was taught that in my year at ECA I've obviously forgotten it, care to elaborate. Is it symmetry that you object to or balance ?

Niall   

[Frank Pont]

Niall, it has to do with beauty. If you buy a bouquet of flowers its always an uneven number of flowers. Colt was also almost boringly consistent in applying uneven numbers of bunkers around his greens. It actually usually is a tell-tale sign for me on Colt courses that something has changed if there are an even number of bunkers around the greens.

Separately symmetry is also not good, because symmetry isn't very natural in landscapes.

[Anders Rytter]

Joel and others, These pictures were taken this autumn.

[Scott Macpherson]

Niall,

I have tried playing around the Road Hole Bunker to get to a flag at the back of the green, and the line is usually just left of the ridge (on the box tee for the 18th hole) then you chip and putt up to the flag, or two putts from off the green. It can work, but its hard to execute when your drive is on the right side of the fairway.

And as regards the 2nd hole, yes, that play looks on. There's more than one way to skin a cat (as the saying goes).



Frank,

There is beauty in symmetry too. And Nature has symmetry. Look at people – two arms, two legs, two ears, and those who work with models will tell you beauty in the human face has everything to do with symmetry.

And as for bouquets. Last time I bought flowers it was 12 roses. They didn't offer 11 or 13.

Scott

 

[Scott Macpherson]

Thanks for those photos Anders.

Yes, you can see the small dip they have filled in. It is just on the right side of the bunker, behind the protruding shoulder of the green. Personally I quite liked that little swale as it created crossing horizons between the foreground and the mid-ground in the visual composition. It might come back for the next incarnation of the bunker... who knows...


scott

[Pete_Pittock]

Golf Central (7pm Eastern) just had a 10 minute walkaround/interview on the changes. It is in the fifteen minutes of the hour broadcast.

[Rick Shefchik]

I know I'm just being churlish now, but it still amazes me that the R&A is more concerned about changing the way I putt than they are about changing a centuries-old historical treasure.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

You are right about the twin bunkers, there are not a lot of places on the old course that feature bunkers in pairs.

Mr. and Mrs. Kruger?   Always loved that pair on 9. 

[Mike Nuzzo]

I wouldn't comment on the aesthetics of #2 as the concept is flawed whether it is 1, 2, 3 or 9 (lucky in some cultures) bunkers
I thought 17 changed more than just the bunker, but also the way the ball reacts a little further away

Scott am in disagreement with your rational in Links
Did you read Tom's?

Cheers

[Frank Pont]

Niall,

Frank,

There is beauty in symmetry too. And Nature has symmetry. Look at people – two arms, two legs, two ears, and those who work with models will tell you beauty in the human face has everything to do with symmetry.

And as for bouquets. Last time I bought flowers it was 12 roses. They didn't offer 11 or 13.

Scott

 

Scott,

We are not talking about people but about landscapes. Show me beautiful symmetry in natural landscapes....

And from someone living in the flower capital of the world I can only say get a better florist  

[Scott Macpherson]

Hi Mike,

What part of my rational did you disagree with?

Yes, I just got the magazine a few days ago, so have read Tom's counter piece.

And why is the design concept flawed on the 2nd? I'm just interested.

Scott

[Scott Macpherson]

Hi Frank,

You know, I was thinking about beauty in the landscape and the uneven number of features ; I think it is looks better when, if you have a group of trees that are individually noticeable, that they are in uneven numbers. With bunkers too, but it is not a rule that I think you can live and die by. As for beauty in the landscape, an example of where symmetry is powerful and wonderful is reflections in calm lakes.

scott

[Frank Pont]

Scott,

I guess I should be clearer in that I mean that symmetry in a links landscape which has been shaped by wind and therefore by definition is irregular looks very foreign. To take your example of a lake, that's why the lake looks so horrible on the Eden course.

[Scott Macpherson]

Frank,

I am not sure am making the connection between what I said about reflection in lakes and your comment on the Eden? (though I agree, it is not a very attractive body of water). But this conversation, and Mikes on the the LINKS magazine are leading us away from what this thread was about, which was simply me sharing some images of TOC.  I am not really up for a great debate on the where's and what for's, just thought our friends might appreciate what the changes look like – whether you agree with them or not.

Scott

[Tony_Muldoon]

Interesting discussion of flowers, something that I do know a little about. 

I was trained that you should never use an even no’s of accent flowers in an arrangement. With odd no’s the eye never rests and the arrangement will have more life in it. Perfect symmetry should be avoided. 

It was a long time ago but I believe these principals come from Ikebana where the Japanese miniaturise nature (amongst other things).  They take flower arranging even more seriously than we do Golf Architecture.
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikebana

Hope that helps. 

[Frank Pont]

Frank,

I am not sure am making the connection between what I said about reflection in lakes and your comment on the Eden? (though I agree, it is not a very attractive body of water). But this conversation, and Mikes on the the LINKS magazine are leading us away from what this thread was about, which was simply me sharing some images of TOC.  I am not really up for a great debate on the where's and what for's, just thought our friends might appreciate what the changes look like – whether you agree with them or not.

Scott

Understand, and thanks for the pics.

I guess you did not walk out to take pics of green 11?
That was the hole together with hole 2 that upset most of the people.

[Scott Macpherson]

Hi Frank,

Nope. Didn't have time to get out to 11.


Tony,

Thanks for the education on flowers. That's my lesson for the day... a wonderful little sojourn OT.

scott

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