[Patrick_Mucci]

Geometric architecture if it functions to perfection in challenging the golfer ?

I often think of square/rectangular greens surrounded by moat bunkers and think of how challenging approaching and recovering to those greens would be when the holes are cut into the corners.

The deep square/rectangular, often very long, fronted by steep banks, bunkers, also served to challenge golfers.

So, does it matter that their form was geometric if their function was superb ?

Was the shift away from geometric design a concession to making the challenge less penal ?

[Pete Lavallee]

No, I'd say the loss of geometric green designs was due to riding mowers, which like to drive in a circular, not square pattern.

[Bill Brightly]

Patrick, what are you trying to do, rouse the naturalists? Thank goodness Wayne Morrison does not post anymore. I would be in a fight defending Raynor's playing fields...

  

[Mark Bourgeois]

To paraphrase Claude Lévi-Strauss, we golfers have a need for our golf course architects to serve the cooked as though it were raw.

He'd probably say that was down to some innate / structuralist thing, eg man's atavistic revulsion of the contrived. Maybe, but it could also be due to some combination of experiential progression of man as golfer and of societal norms for designed landscapes and gardens.

From an aesthetic perspective rectilinear design might actually "work" with paved cart paths.

[V. Kmetz]

Again Pat, its the old bugaboo...

match or medal?

It's only in the latter case, that something is truly penal, and as you know, in the match case the same type of feature is likely to hurt the other guy on another hole... or on another day; its fair because both have to do it, go through the same crucible

cheers

vk

[Patrick_Mucci]

No, I'd say the loss of geometric green designs was due to riding mowers, which like to drive in a circular, not square pattern.

Pete,

Riding mowers didn't come along until long after their demise

[Anthony_Nysse]

I think of the Cupp course at Palmetto Hall. There are more 90* angles on that course than all the other courses combined. I think it looks so unnatural. My dad away said, "There are no straight lines in nature."

[Joey Chase]

Some of my absolute favorite courses have the geometric style of bunkering and green shape.  There is something that catches the eye and can intimidate just in the landform and how it shadows. 

Anthony, I like a good MacDonald/Raynor course as much as anyone else, but after looking up on google earth the Palmetto Hall course, I have to say WTF?  What were his marching orders when coming up with that look?  Does it play and look any better from the playing surface or no?

[Bill_McBride]

I hate to bring up Mackenzie   . But one of his tenets was that golf course construction should be as natural as possible.   He and his California contemporaries strived for a natural look, turning away from the geometric look of early American design.  

Today only the MacDonald-Raynor-Banks courses demonstrate that geometric history, as far as I know.  And it's funny that while so many golf design enthusiasts strongly admire the "natural" look, the MacD et al courses are still immensely popular!   While that seems like a contradiction, courses like NGLA are just so much fun to play.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think of the Cupp course at Palmetto Hall. There are more 90* angles on that course than all the other courses combined. I think it looks so unnatural. My dad away said, "There are no straight lines in nature."

Tony,

Your dad must not have been a sailor, staring at the Horizon 

As to geometry in nature, has anyone taken a look at the cells in a bee hive ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I hate to bring up Mackenzie   . But one of his tenets was that golf course construction should be as natural as possible.   He and his California contemporaries strived for a natural look, turning away from the geometric look of early American design.  

Bill,

I think that might have been more of a concession to the terrain in California.
Photos of those early sites, LACC, Riviera and CPC would make it difficult to force geometry on the land.

Today only the MacDonald-Raynor-Banks courses demonstrate that geometric history, as far as I know.

Ahhh, shows you how little you really know.
Travis and Emmett demonstrate the geometric history of GCA. 

And it's funny that while so many golf design enthusiasts strongly admire the "natural" look, the MacD et al courses are still immensely popular!   While that seems like a contradiction, courses like NGLA are just so much fun to play.

So, you have to ask yourself, as I have in this thread, is it form or function ?

Those courses function incredibly well and have for over a century.

And, don't forget, at one time, their look was admired, en voque.
While the look may have fallen out of favor, certainly the function hasn't.  

[Bill_McBride]

I hate to bring up Mackenzie   . But one of his tenets was that golf course construction should be as natural as possible.   He and his California contemporaries strived for a natural look, turning away from the geometric look of early American design.  

Bill,

I think that might have been more of a concession to the terrain in California.
Photos of those early sites, LACC, Riviera and CPC would make it difficult to force geometry on the land.

Today only the MacDonald-Raynor-Banks courses demonstrate that geometric history, as far as I know.

Ahhh, shows you how little you really know.
Travis and Emmett demonstrate the geometric history of GCA. 

And it's funny that while so many golf design enthusiasts strongly admire the "natural" look, the MacD et al courses are still immensely popular!   While that seems like a contradiction, courses like NGLA are just so much fun to play.

So, you have to ask yourself, as I have in this thread, is it form or function ?

Those courses function incredibly well and have for over a century.

And, don't forget, at one time, their look was admired, en voque.
While the look may have fallen out of favor, certainly the function hasn't.  

Forgot Travis and Emmet.   Growing up in California and living in the South and seldom playing in the East, those guys are the biggest hole in my experience. 

In general it's apparent that the naturalist/minimalist design style has endured while the post-geometric style has not been employed by modern architects.   How do you account for that?

And your theory that the California terrain was responsible for the minimalist or naturalist is refuted by the designs of such Golden Age non-Californians as Stanley Thompson and Donald Ross.  I'm sure you can quickly name a dozen more.  There was little "geometry" in their designs. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

It is one of the great gaps in my study that I have yet to see a MacDonald / Raynor course in the flesh. The style is so far removed from most of the other great architects I admire...

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

Travis was one of the first guys to write about naturalism.  Here are his words from 1920 specifically addressing this topic:

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1920/ag2333f.pdf

Sven

[Patrick_Mucci]

Forgot Travis and Emmet.   

Growing up in California and living in the South and seldom playing in the East, those guys are the biggest hole in my experience. 

Some great courses,   GCGC,, St George's, Seawane

In general it's apparent that the naturalist/minimalist design style has endured while the post-geometric style has not been employed by modern architects.   How do you account for that?

Probably TV along with the architect's desire to be original
Not many original squares and rectangles are there ?

And your theory that the California terrain was responsible for the minimalist or naturalist is refuted by the designs of such Golden Age non-Californians as Stanley Thompson and Donald Ross. 

I NEVER stated that the "terrain was responsible for the minimalist or naturalist"

I stated that the terrain accommodated the bunker style which fit comfortably into the preponderance of slopes /banks which acted as natural footpads


 I'm sure you can quickly name a dozen more.  There was little "geometry" in their designs.  [

So what ?/color]

[Bill_McBride]

Whaddya mean, so what?  Almost every architect had left the geometric school behind, that's what.   

[Mac Plumart]

What's wrong with Geometric architecture if it functions to perfection in challenging the golfer ?

Can't be anything wrong with it, if Chicago Golf Club is good.  And I think it is much better than good.

[Paul Gray]

Given my almost complete lack of knowledge of this style, purely for educational purposes, could someone please point me in the direction of some good examples of this geometric approach.

Yours Sincerely,

Ignorant Brit 

[Mark Saltzman]

Given my almost complete lack of knowledge of this style, purely for educational purposes, could someone please point me in the direction of some good examples of this geometric approach.

Yours Sincerely,

Ignorant Brit 

Sleepy Hollow: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53798.0.html

The Creek: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53840.html

Piping Rock: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=53914.0

[MikeJones]

Whether a course is natural looking or of geometric design has little bearing on how a course plays. Most people seem to prefer a natural look and so that's probably why seemingly the majority of architects design courses that way.

[Paul Gray]

Given my almost complete lack of knowledge of this style, purely for educational purposes, could someone please point me in the direction of some good examples of this geometric approach.

Yours Sincerely,

Ignorant Brit  

Sleepy Hollow: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53798.0.html

The Creek: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53840.html

Piping Rock: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=53914.0

Many thanks, Mark.

As an expert of all of three minutes now I fail to see why so many apparently object.    Nothing wrong with quirky. My immediate thoughts were of slight similarities with Woodhall Spa.

[Jim_Kennedy]

In a 2000 GCA interview Ran asked Tim Liddy this question: Who are your three favorite architects of all time and why.

Tim's answer:

a) Pete Dye- a great mentor, great concepts, great thought process. I owe everything in this profession to him.
 
b) Donald Ross- had a great knowledge of the game, great routings, shot balance, variety, wonderful lessons on working with the natural topography

c) Seth Raynor- attention to detail, juxtaposition of architecture against nature, great variety of green complexes.


 

[Michael Whitaker]

I will never forget the first time I played Yeamans Hall. It was long before I had ever heard of Seth Raynor or GCA.com... actually, living a four hour drive away, I knew nothing of Yeamans. I was invited at the last minute to join a group that was entertaining Clemson's football coach.

Anyway... On first play I thought it was an Ultra-MODERN course! Very angular... very geometrical... especially compared to everything I had seen to that point (which wasn't much).  You can imagine my shock when I discovered later that the course was built in the 1920's!

Some of these same angular features are common in Pete Dye's courses.

I can confidently say I have never played a Raynor that I didn't enjoy. Can't say that about any many other designers.

[Jason Thurman]

I don't buy this idea that geometric architecture has disappeared. Some of you guys need to play more Pete Dye courses. There's plenty of Raynor-ish "engineered" geometric features out there.

Mackenzie's take also isn't the definitive answer on this subject. Raynor wasn't the only guy using geometric elements. Ross built plenty of sharply square push-up greens that look great and play wonderfully.

Naturalism is cool and everything, but there are plenty of great courses with a more geometric or engineered aesthetic. A lot of the significant developments of the last 20 years have been on a naturalist bent, but that doesn't mean geometric design is dead.

For me, the basic quality of a course still comes down to shot values, and you can hit a home run in that department with or without a naturalist aesthetic. As far as aesthetics go, I love the look Cypress Point, Old White, Sand Hills, and French Lick Dye. Not every golf course needs to look the same.

[Mark Saltzman]

Jason, where has Dye used straight lines?

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