Ogilvy on The Old Course

[Alex Miller]

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golftalkcentral/ogilvy-rails-against-disgusting-changes-to-old-course/

"Oglilvy rails against disgusting changes to The Old Course"

[Dominic Meese]

Great comments by someone who understands GCA. If only more players were as honest as him...

[Dominic Meese]

Full interview:

http://www.hkgolfer.com/features/taking-aim

"I think the thing that really affected most people that got emotional about it was the way they went about it. Making a sneaky little announcement the same weekend everyone was talking about the long putter ban. The bulldozers were out the next day. Surely the Old Course deserves a round table of the smartest people in golf with the best intentions and to discuss it for two years before you do anything?

Surely they know they’re doing something wrong if they have to sneak it in under a bigger announcement? You’re not that confident about what you’re doing are you, surely? It was the process rather than the reality. The reality is not very nice but the process was horrible."

Some great thoughts on long putters, the golf ball and hybrids in there too.

[Thomas Dai]

Good comments. I know that Mike Clayton posts on GCA. It would be great if Geoff did as well. He's had a monthly article in a UK golf mag for quite a while now and what he says in it is always worth reading. Says it like it is in style. Bit of a traditionalist as well. I guess the article is syndicated amongst other mags. The other Aussie who writes in a UK golf mag in Wayne 'Radar" Riley. Can't recall off-hand which mags they write for but both express interesting thoughts are very readable. Both probably available to read on the web somewhere. All the best.

[Emile Bonfiglio]

I can forgive him for winning at Winged Foot now...

[Rich Goodale]

I think Geoff is whining rather than railing.  It's more about "Why didn't they ask my opinion?" than anything substantive about the actual changes  (outside of the "no changes good"/"any changes bad" Animal Farm-like meme).

[Ally Mcintosh]

This time I'm more inclined to agree with Rich...

Still, I prefer high profile pros whining in the right direction about architecture than not standing up at all... They are the only ones listened to unfortunately...

[Mark Pearce]

Rich,

You don't think his point about timing has any validity?  I know you think these changes are a good thing, so wouldn't have expected you to agree with Ogilvy on that.

[Frank Pont]

Rich and Ally, I do not see him whining. If you read the beginning of the interview he very much plays down his own expertise in gca, so when he talks about a round table later its pretty obvious he isn't talking about himself... He just expresses his feelings about changing TOC in general, and specifically the way in which it was done.

[Rich Goodale]

Rich and Ally, I do not see him whining. If you read the beginning of the interview he very much plays down his own expertise in gca, so when he talks about a round table later its pretty obvious he isn't talking about himself... He just expresses his feelings about changing TOC in general, and specifically the way in which it was done.

That's exactly my point, Mark.  He is whining about "the way in which it was done" rather than knowledgeably discussing what was done.

[Mark Pearce]

Rich,

As Frank says, you are unfairly mis-characterising his comments.  But you haven't answered my question, so it can't have been clear.  Do you disagree with his criticism of the timing of the announcement and the start of the work?

[Terry Lavin]

He's turning to FIGJAM Jr. Or maybe in his case it might be FISJAM. 

[Peter Pallotta]

I like Geoff very much - he seems like a good and smart guy. But I sure hope he wins again soon, because even for me, with each passing year he sounds more like a crank and his opinions more like sour grapes, e.g. "I would win more if the architecture was better."

Peter

[Mike Wagner]

He's turning to FIGJAM Jr. Or maybe in his case it might be FISJAM. 

I have absolutely no idea how this article generates this comment - how lame.  Let's hear your take on what's happening at St. Andrews.  I'd be willing to bet you feel pretty much just like he does...maybe I'm wrong, but I'd bet on it.

We finally have one of the best players in the world speaking out about making ridiculous changes to a course....and that's what you come up with...that's sad.

He's a great guy who's passionate about this stuff.  Who else warmed up for the US Open at Bandon Dunes??

[Terry Lavin]

He's turning to FIGJAM Jr. Or maybe in his case it might be FISJAM. 

I have absolutely no idea how this article generates this comment - how lame.  Let's hear your take on what's happening at St. Andrews.  I'd be willing to bet you feel pretty much just like he does...maybe I'm wrong, but I'd bet on it.

We finally have one of the best players in the world speaking out about making ridiculous changes to a course....and that's what you come up with...that's sad.

He's a great guy who's passionate about this stuff.  Who else warmed up for the US Open at Bandon Dunes??

I wasn't about to go back and have the same argument that we had for a few weeks here when the shovels came out at the Old Course, but you asked so let me say that I have no problem with what is happening at St. Andrews because it is a golf course and not a shrine.  I think it was handled in a ham-handed fashion, allowing people to criticize them about the process and condemn the work without even waiting to see whether the work is well done or not.  Geoff comes off as somebody who wants everybody to know how smart he is.  That's my perception.  You may have a different view.  He comes off a Phil Jr. to me.  I think he'd be better served to leave the architectural pronouncements to his partner, who knows exactly what he's talking about.

[Jud_T]

Judge,

Leave it to you southsiders to be pragmatic in the face of such events.  Probably helps you sleep better at night while us northsiders have wet dreams about Old Tom roaming the links and a Cubs pennant...

[Rich Goodale]

Rich,

As Frank says, you are unfairly mis-characterising his comments.  But you haven't answered my question, so it can't have been clear.  Do you disagree with his criticism of the timing of the announcement and the start of the work?

Mark

Most of his rant was about the changes rather than the timing, but since you ask, I think that the timing was none of our business and those who seem to be gravitating towards some sort of of conspiracy theories regarding the long putter announcement should take off their tinfoil hats and smell the roses...

Vis a vis the rest of your actual post, i.e.....

"Rich,

You don't think his point about timing has any validity?  I know you think these changes are a good thing, so wouldn't have expected you to agree with Ogilvy on that."

.....all I've said before is (in efect):

1.  The Links Trust has the right to do what they want with the courses over which they have been given charge
2.  As far as I can see from the words and pictures posted on this site, none of the changes seems ill-thought out or particularly ill-constructed
3.  As far as the one change which I have actually seen (the 2nd) my on-site observation confirms my general observations as per 2. above

PS--Have you or Geoff actually seen any of the work?

And Frank, sorry for calling you "Mark"......

Rich

[Rick Shefchik]

"I mean, if they get crazy wind and you can’t put a pin up the back left on 11 then, oh well. Or, you just have that green running two feet slower than the others. We're the best golfers in the world, surely we can work out that the green is slower. We’re not that precious."

Doesn't sound like whining to me.

[Frank Pont]

Rich, you can call me Mark anytime

[Bill Brightly]

I don't see how anyone could say he was whining. He was simply responding to questions and I thought his answers were refreshing,  and contained an extremely interesting pro player's perspective. For example,  he clearly explained how thick rough as a primary hole defense  "dumbs down" the game for top players. (IMO, he is going to hate what they did to Merion, he just does not know it yet... ) He points out what top players can do with equipment advances such as hybrids and 460 drivers, but I didn't read him as whining about it. I always liked him; the article just bumped him up a few notches in my book.

It would be GREAT if he posted here. I'd bet a lot of money that he lurks here quite often.

[Alex Miller]

I don't see how anyone could say he was whining. He was simply responding to questions and I thought his answers were refreshing,  and contained an extremely interesting pro player's perspective. For example,  he clearly explained how think rough as a primary hole defense  "dumbs down" the game for top players. (IMO, he is going to hate what they did to Merion, he just does not know it yet... ) He points out what top players can do with equipment advances such as hybrids and 460 drivers, but I didn't read him as whining about it. I always liked him; the article just bumped him up a few notches in my book.

It would be GREAT if he posted here. I'd bet a lot of money that he lurks here quite often.

+1 to all of this

"Whining" implies a lack of decorum to me, but the guy even said that the work at TOC would probably be fine. He's just disappointed/upset that it's happening and of the way it's happening.


(Hi, Geoff!)

[Mike Wagner]

He's turning to FIGJAM Jr. Or maybe in his case it might be FISJAM. 

I have absolutely no idea how this article generates this comment - how lame.  Let's hear your take on what's happening at St. Andrews.  I'd be willing to bet you feel pretty much just like he does...maybe I'm wrong, but I'd bet on it.

We finally have one of the best players in the world speaking out about making ridiculous changes to a course....and that's what you come up with...that's sad.

He's a great guy who's passionate about this stuff.  Who else warmed up for the US Open at Bandon Dunes??

I wasn't about to go back and have the same argument that we had for a few weeks here when the shovels came out at the Old Course, but you asked so let me say that I have no problem with what is happening at St. Andrews because it is a golf course and not a shrine.  I think it was handled in a ham-handed fashion, allowing people to criticize them about the process and condemn the work without even waiting to see whether the work is well done or not.  Geoff comes off as somebody who wants everybody to know how smart he is.  That's my perception.  You may have a different view.  He comes off a Phil Jr. to me.  I think he'd be better served to leave the architectural pronouncements to his partner, who knows exactly what he's talking about.

Gee, I wonder why a guy like Geoff wouldn't want to come share his thoughts on this site?  I wonder if you would use these flippant type remarks to his face?

Condemning the process before waiting to see if it's done well or not??  Isn't that the whole point?  It's not about if the work is done well or not...it's that there's work being done at all.

[RJ_Daley]

Terry says:

Geoff comes off as somebody who wants everybody to know how smart he is.  That's my perception.  You may have a different view.  He comes off a Phil Jr. to me.  I think he'd be better served to leave the architectural pronouncements to his partner, who knows exactly what he's talking about.

Terry, as you say, 'that is your perception'.  And obviously, there are those of us that have a different one.  The common denominator between you and us (or I - on this matter) is we are both 'in-expert' participants of a website, with no credibility beyond a passion for the subject.  We are rank amatuers who don't have a professional status of any kind, in playing the game, or have ever been paid for our design ideas and input.  

G.O. on the other hand; is a man that won the U.S. Open, has a lengthy playing record of success and professional accomplishment in playing the game, has arguably seen and played more significant to GCA courses than perhaps a dozen of us could hope for in a lifetime of travel and play, and has and does receivee fees for his consulting work.  And, I'm under the understanding, he has emersed himself in the golf course design and construction principles and technique side of the equation.  I think he can document his bona fides in that regard based on his work, and time studying the subject.  What have 'we' to compare with G.O.?  We - I mean you and I, and Rich Goodale, and all of us who opine with  little to no expert experience.  I mean, who would you allow in your court and weight testimony as and expert witness to a greater degree on the subject of the question of golf design and GCA historical significance to restoration and remodelling; Geoff Ogilvy, Rich Goodale, or Dawson?  If there were a lawsuit demanding damages and repair, that the Town of St Andrews brought against Dawson and the R&A for violation of the trust "to preserve and protect" the old course, claiming damages to their unquestionable historical treasure representing the cradle of golf, and you had to hear expert testimony from one of only two people, would it be Goodale, or Oglivy?  

[Jud_T]

He'd toss the case out... 

[Niall C]

"I mean, if they get crazy wind and you can’t put a pin up the back left on 11 then, oh well. Or, you just have that green running two feet slower than the others. We're the best golfers in the world, surely we can work out that the green is slower. We’re not that precious."

Doesn't sound like whining to me.

No, but it does sound like that his measure for the course is how it plays for the pro's, or am I just taking that quote out of context ?

Niall