Forced carries: how many-how far?

[Tommy Williamsen]

One of the most exciting shots is the forced carry.  To successfully hit three good shots, and an equal number of forced carries, on number 7 at Pine Valley and have a put for birdie is pretty exciting.  To hit a tee shot on 17 at Cypress Point that carries the ocean and hugs the right side of the fairway hard against the sea stirs the soul.  Pull it off and a sense of accomplishment washes over you like a refreshing shower. Yet an entire round of forced carries gets pretty old. Nonetheless, I have friends who don't like X course because of the forced carries.  And they are good players who have little trouble with them.

How many are too many forced carries a round?
Does it make a difference if it is the tee shot or the shot to the green?
How long should the carry be?

Does not the first tee shot at Ballyhack get your blood pumping?



Same could be said of the tee shot on the short par four 6th

[Ally Mcintosh]

Tommy,

I think it does make a difference whether it's the tee-shot or the shot to the green.

Generally speaking, large forced carries off the tee are more acceptable because there is a fixed challenge from a fixed point. As long as the forward sets of tees have little to no carry, then a number of these are OK in my book. Where it starts to become a little unacceptable is when short-hitting members struggle to reach the fairway in to a headwind from the monthly medal tees.

Forced carries for approaches to greens are a little more tricky to judge because everyone is approaching from a different distance and it is usually those that are approaching from further away who are the ones who hit the ball less distance.

[Jud_T]

Tommy, for who?  For Tiger 18 holes with a 250 carry would be ideal.  For my wife 0 is ideal. 

[Bob_Garvelink]

Im not a huge fan of forced carries although 1 or 2 a round does add some excitement.  As long as the shot is reasonable I feel that most golfers dont have a problem with them.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

My former club had 14. Wetlands, creeks and lakes.

www.commonwealthgolfclub.com

[Garland Bayley]

A forced care is a suspension of golf. No longer do you hit your ball find it and hit it again with all the variations on the hit it again that the lay of the land will give you. Instead it is hit your ball, fail, repeat the shot, fail, repeat the shot, ?

You might as well be at the driving range.

Of course if a course is dead flat with little in interesting challenges, you might as well have forced carries, because you are constantly playing from the equivalent of driving range markers anyway.

[Mark Saltzman]

A forced care is a suspension of golf. No longer do you hit your ball find it and hit it again with all the variations on the hit it again that the lay of the land will give you. Instead it is hit your ball, fail, repeat the shot, fail, repeat the shot, ?

You might as well be at the driving range.

Of course if a course is dead flat with little in interesting challenges, you might as well have forced carries, because you are constantly playing from the equivalent of driving range markers anyway.

What about a forced carry over cross-bunkers?

[Jim Sherma]

Forced carries with the risk of lost balls on the first couple of holes is a negative in my mind. Too many on a course clearly gets old, but a reasonable number scattered through the round is fine. I just think that blow-up holes with little or no bail outs early in the round risks ruining the taste for the round too early in the day. I was looking back at Mark Saltzman's tour of The Idaho Club yesterday and there was alot of conversation around this point.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I guess it also depends on how much you have to carry.  I found that a lot of Heathland courses in England have forced carries off the tee. like 18 at Woodhall Spa. I think the problem is to vary their look.  Woodhall Spa has this look from many of the tees.



Links courses have them as well as at Westward Ho's most famous hole.



Par threes tend to have many forced carries.
7 at Musgsrove Mill gets your heart pumping



I'd actually like to see a half dozen forced carries off the tee and three or so to the green.

[Jason Thurman]

A forced care is a suspension of golf. No longer do you hit your ball find it and hit it again with all the variations on the hit it again that the lay of the land will give you. Instead it is hit your ball, fail, repeat the shot, fail, repeat the shot, ?

Or... you could just hit it over.

Jud's post is a good one. A forced carry of 175 or so from a back tee is probably fine, but ideally, the forward tees would reduce that carry to 25 yards, or maybe 0.

Honestly though, most high handicappers I know enjoy a few forced carries in a round. It's a lot of fun for a weaker player to watch a shot carry over a hazard. When you're talking about players who might make one par every two or three rounds, a reasonable forced carry is an opportunity to give them a real sense of satisfaction that they don't get very often. And if they fail? Most will just drop on the other side anyways.

True high handicappers don't play by the rules or they'd literally never finish at certain courses. While I can imagine Garland standing stubbornly on a tee all day whacking ball after ball into a ravine that's 250 yards across, most of the people he tries to be the voice for have already picked up their 6 foot gimme on 18, carded a 105, and moved on with life.

[Garland Bayley]

A forced care is a suspension of golf. No longer do you hit your ball find it and hit it again with all the variations on the hit it again that the lay of the land will give you. Instead it is hit your ball, fail, repeat the shot, fail, repeat the shot, ?

You might as well be at the driving range.

Of course if a course is dead flat with little in interesting challenges, you might as well have forced carries, because you are constantly playing from the equivalent of driving range markers anyway.

What about a forced carry over cross-bunkers?

That's always been a "find it and hit it again with all the variations on the hit it again that the lay of the land will give you."

[Garland Bayley]

A forced care is a suspension of golf. No longer do you hit your ball find it and hit it again with all the variations on the hit it again that the lay of the land will give you. Instead it is hit your ball, fail, repeat the shot, fail, repeat the shot, ?

Or... you could just hit it over.

Jud's post is a good one. A forced carry of 175 or so from a back tee is probably fine, but ideally, the forward tees would reduce that carry to 25 yards, or maybe 0.

Honestly though, most high handicappers I know enjoy a few forced carries in a round.

And most quick players I know hate playing behind these guys. They give the rest of the high handicappers a bad name.

It's a lot of fun for a weaker player to watch a shot carry over a hazard. When you're talking about players who might make one par every two or three rounds, a reasonable forced carry is an opportunity to give them a real sense of satisfaction that they don't get very often.

I suggest bowling if that is the kind of "real sense of satisfaction" they are out for. Making birdie on a par 3 surely trumps this silly "sense of satisfaction" you are claiming they get.

And if they fail? Most will just drop on the other side anyways.

I'm sure they get a "real sense of" dissatisfaction from that. So where's the upside to these forced carries for them?

True high handicappers don't play by the rules or they'd literally never finish at certain courses. While I can imagine Garland standing stubbornly on a tee all day whacking ball after ball into a ravine, that's 250 yards across, most of the people he tries to be the voice for have already picked up their 6 foot gimme on 18, carded a 105, and moved on with life.

You forgot about the part where they never go back to that course.

I'm sure Bandon is so popular for all the forced carries they require golfers to make.  

[Andy Troeger]

I find narrow fairways surrounded by lost-ball areas to be much more troublesome than forced carries. I've certainly seen courses with too many forced carries, but admittedly most of the great courses I've seen have at least a few.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I try for none, but usually have three or four, due to enviro areas, natural lakes, creeks, etc..  Where possible, I try to offer a way around.  I think that 3-4 is about max needed.  They don't trouble good players, kill average ones, so its the least productive challenge feature you can use when trying to accomodate all.

It does depend on where you use them, with tee shots being better than approaches for pure forced carry w no option.

I try to limit them to 2/3 the expected tee shot distance a player on that tee would expect, plus or minus for forced carries.  From the forward tees, I expect 140 yards and limit carry to 90-95.  White tees, I expect 170 and max out a forced carry at 112.  Blue tees, 230/150, Gold 260/170 and Black tees 300/200.

Yeah, in special situations where that presumably optional carry is part of the go/no go decision, then I go up to 85-90% of expected distance 255/270 from back tees)  You have to remember that not all back tee players hit it 300.....

[Carl Rogers]

An early TD, Riverfront in Suffolk, VA has a forced carry second shot off at times an slightly irregular stance on the home hole.  The wetland starts about 350 off the tee and the carry is from 75 to 90 yards.  Good place to find lost balls.

It is a half par hole for a really really good golfer and thus the forced carry does not exist.

[Bruce Katona]

Forced carries really hurt the average weekend/higher handicap player.  I like both jeff's & Ally's answers.....0-4 with 2/3 of the distance flight expected from the tee in question.  There is no greater satisfaction for my wife and daughter than flying the ball over a forced carry.

That said, they each have quite a few "water balls" in their bags for these shots.  Two tries and they drop on the other side and continue on, so play is not held up.

[Thomas Dai]

Nice post.

For experienced players or those with lower handicaps then some forced carries can be a stimulating challenge. I also guess forced carries generally also help to reduce the amount of grassing cutting and general course maintenance needed.

However, we were all begineer's once, a period when I imagine we all hit it fat or topped it and lost golf balls as a result.

So if a stimulating forced carry is required for the better player some kind of alternative tee(s) or route to the fairway/green is also surely appropriate, especially when you take into consideration novices, shorter hitting seniors/ladies and young juniors who may be playing not for competitive or macho challenge reasons but rather for social enjoyment, fresh air and exercise and who do not desire (or deserve?) to lose any golf balls doing so.

All the best

[Greg Tallman]

I try for none, but usually have three or four, due to enviro areas, natural lakes, creeks, etc..  Where possible, I try to offer a way around.  I think that 3-4 is about max needed.  They don't trouble good players, kill average ones, so its the least productive challenge feature you can use when trying to accomodate all.

It does depend on where you use them, with tee shots being better than approaches for pure forced carry w no option.

I try to limit them to 2/3 the expected tee shot distance a player on that tee would expect, plus or minus for forced carries.  From the forward tees, I expect 140 yards and limit carry to 90-95.  White tees, I expect 170 and max out a forced carry at 112.  Blue tees, 230/150, Gold 260/170 and Black tees 300/200.

Yeah, in special situations where that presumably optional carry is part of the go/no go decision, then I go up to 85-90% of expected distance 255/270 from back tees)  You have to remember that not all back tee players hit it 300.....

Jeff, can you name any good (not great) course with nary a single forced carry?

[Wade Whitehead]

I believe the first tee at Ballyhack is the most exciting opening shot in golf for a couple of reasons, including the forced carry.

To the board: What's the longest forced carry you've seen?

WW

[Wade Whitehead]

Forced carries really hurt the average weekend/higher handicap player.

Anything that doesn't make the game easier hurts the weekend/higher handicap player, right?

WW

[Matthew Petersen]

I believe the first tee at Ballyhack is the most exciting opening shot in golf for a couple of reasons, including the forced carry.

To the board: What's the longest forced carry you've seen?

WW

They built a back tee for the US Open at Torrey Pines that's 250 yds to carry over the canyon.

[Bruce Katona]

WW: it certainly slows up play at the public venues.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jeff Brauer,

Interesting comments. But, just curious:  can you build forced carries that actually challenge really good players while not bring ridiculous for the average Joe?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Greg T - There probably are, but I can't name them off hand.  End of day, and I'm tired.  TOC has one, so there is a pretty good example of striving for the minimum!

Tim - Off the tee that is an easy task with multiple tees, and often, angles, setting the back tee way off to the left or right.

I still recall Colbert Hills.  We set 200 yards or more on normally downwind holes as the typical back tee forced carry to save turf (7600 yards and Audubon "rules" of 90 Acres of turf made for some carries)  One day, the wind blew from the north and Colbert got worried he couldn't make the carry.  He teed it up on 4 and was right.  10 balls fell short in that 40MPH wind (estimated)

So, on windy sites, you need to be way more conservative, or at the very least, built any forced carry tee with some length vs. width - so maybe tees can be set way back on occaision.

At Firekeeper, we actually built a tee for Tiger on the optional carry fw on 18.  Of course, Notah is looking ahead to his invitational tourney being there.  It's a tough carry, but we built a 15 x 15 foot tee way back for his younger, longer hitting buds on tour.  No reason to waste a lot of resources on that.

And, the other thing I have learned over the years is the obvious - the shorter you make any particular carry, the more golfers can experience the thrill.  Why design that 290 carry for Phil, etc. when he ain't showing up?  Make it a little shorter so that the more typical back/middle/forward tee player can make the carry and have a thrill.  If the course ranking goes down a bit, but everyone has a grand time, its a fair trade.

For the women mentioned, and even average Joe's, those old carry bunkers on old courses set at maybe 150-200 yards from various tees are a thrill to carry, even if the only thing in doubt is the potential ground ball.  It is actually less fun for them to have to white knuckle it on a maximum carry, which is only a thrill for 1% of players.  For the rest shorter is better.

Actually, I think the intentions of the ODG's who designed more of these wasn't necessarily to max out the carry, given how hard it was just to get the ball airborne in those days.  I really don't know, but I have the impression they set those things at reasonable, not maximum carries for the players of the day.  Of course, many were angled, and most also had a way around, all of which affect placement.

[Mark McKeever]

The first tee at Phoenixville CC outside of Philadelphia has a great forced carry on the first tee.  It's an all or nothing way to start the round off that gets your blood flowing.   

Mark