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Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
You are your client
« on: February 19, 2013, 05:25:12 PM »
Tom Doak wrote on the Black Mesa thread...

...so it sounds like the only way it's going to happen is if I'm going to go build it with my own money.  And if I ever decide to do THAT, then you'll get to see a par-6.

To me this deserves some attention.

Back in the day, some of the greatest golf courses in America were built by the people that were the principle beneficiary.  Without delving into the history of what George Crump would have been at Pine Valley had he not died, Fownes involvements in both construction and at Oakmont post-construction, or Bobby Jones' architectural inputs at Augusta; what do you think that "being their own client" allows these men to accomplish?  What would modern architects do differently if they were building their own golf club?


« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 05:28:03 PM by Ben Sims »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You are your client
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2013, 05:35:04 PM »
This will be a good thread Ben, I like it.


I just hope the ideas are better than building a par 6...


As with a whole lot of things, no matter how focussed someone may be on a project as a paid professional it cannot approach the devotion to a subject which you own and are permanently responsible for. It's the main reason I would demand a longer term contract with a GCA if I were ever in the position to develop a course.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You are your client
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2013, 09:16:02 PM »
I'm not sure if many professional architects over the decades were "all in" and owned developed and operated their own project.  I know there are examples of one-off dreamers that did so.  We have two course that were farmers turned golf developer, one self taught himself dozer and excavator work, and did much of that himself.  While it is a well used little country course, it isn't anything to comment on. 

Yet, we know that many high profile archies have taken a percentage ownership of a project, either as planned from the beginning, or forced to in order to get the thing done and operating.  Last night, I was watching Frank Zeller on TGC-Feherty speak of two courses down the road from his palacial estate, that he has part ownership in, and entertains people there. 

I guess if you are a good and actively employed archie, you don't have time to entertain ideas of emersing yourself in your own project for a long haul.  And, how many working archie can come up with the sort of $$$ a real first class effort in any viable market, might require?   Most of them know that it is the kiss of death to take on traditional debt loads that seem to be too high when applied to a golf development context. 

Also, the construction companies have taken ownership positions in their projects from time to time, as is know about Wadsworth and Landscapes, over the years.  It seem the same reasons, they need to contribute or delay their payday to keep the thing going long enough to establish so they can finally sell their interests and get out with their skin.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You are your client
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2013, 09:21:00 PM »
RJ,

That third paragraph reads much more capitalist pig than organized labor negotiator...I'm impressed.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You are your client
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2013, 09:33:38 PM »
in the middle of it right now ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Pallotta

Re: You are your client
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2013, 09:36:49 PM »
Jim - you're in fine form,thanks for the chuckles.

Ben - I think the simple/superficial answer is this: it depends on the architect. Today, for some, it would mean a total dedication to the land; for others, total dedication to the plan; to still others, a dedication to the bottom line; and for some, a dedication to the times (via a conscious/unconscious acceptance of popular trends).  

You probably know Wolf Point as well as anyone but the principals; Don has noted that they had as free a hand as he can imagine, and so in Mike's case I think we have his answer to your question (and a good one it is!).  But over the years, my opinion has changed on this: I now believe that with the best architects (and even with some of the good ones) what they would build is not much different from what they are building. In fact, the architects I admire most are the ones who seem to have walked that razor's edge, i.e. those who have managed to build and sustain a professional career while staying true to their essential visions/craft.

PS - This means I'm suspicious of architectural associates who go on about what they would build if only they were free of their boss' yoke and free to express their personal visions. If they had such a vision -- or at least, if they honoured such a vision -- they wouldn't be satisfied working as associates for very long.  (Please understand: I think being an associate a good and honourable way to make a living; but I've been in their shoes in a different world/craft, and I found that I was kidding myself: I found that walking the walk was tough, and actually impossible, until I truly had somethingI had to say, or not say anything at all.)

Peter
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 10:05:08 PM by PPallotta »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You are your client
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2013, 09:39:01 PM »
Mike, while I don't know your specifics, I had been aware of you being a fellow that puts his money where his skill set in GCA lies.  I am also impressed at your development of your residential compound and use of that parcel.  You are a very resourceful gent.  I guess that is why you GT guys always beat the Dawgs in 20 questions!  ;D ;) 8)

Jim, thanks for the compliment, I guess.  I actually wrote a prospectus that was approved by our State Office of Securities Commisioner, to subscribe in-State residents to buy common stock shares in the development corp we formed.  I guess that qualifies as a capitalist pig.  But an unsuccessful one, given we did not fill out the subscription minimum.  

Correction on the 'organized labor negotiator'.   I was the pres and chief labor negotiator of police officer unions.  There is nothing 'organized' about that.  Too many ranks, too many guys all wanting to become the chief, too many egos, all riding around in beats or assignments like highly opinionated - hyped up on coffee and donuts, little independent contractors.  That is why figherfighters living and working together in a house going to paramedic calls and fighting fires- not people, are much more successful at 'labor organization'.  
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 09:48:28 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You are your client
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2013, 09:53:49 PM »
Mike, while I don't know your specifics, I had been aware of you being a fellow that puts his money where his skill set in GCA lies.  I am also impressed at your development of your residential compound and use of that parcel.  You are a very resourceful gent.  I guess that is why you GT guys always beat the Dawgs in 20 questions!  ;D ;) 8)

Jim, thanks for the compliment, I guess.  I actually wrote a prospectus that was approved by our State Office of Securities Commisioner, to subscribe in-State residents to buy common stock shares in the development corp we formed.  I guess that qualifies as a capitalist pig.  But an unsuccessful one, given we did not fill out the subscription minimum.  

Correction on the 'organized labor negotiator'.   I was the pres and chief labor negotiator of police officer unions.  There is nothing 'organized' about that.  Too many ranks, too many guys all wanting to become the chief, too many egos, all riding around in beats or assignments like highly opinionated - hyped up on coffee and donuts, little independent contractors.  That is why figherfighters living and working together in a house going to paramedic calls and fighting fires- not people, are much more successful at 'labor organization'.  

RJ,
I have to fall into that school of architects mentioned on another thread that did not finish school...just a GT fan living in Athens...still thinking about going back for a semester just for my mother... ;D ;D  but can still beat the UGA guys at 20 questions
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 09:56:04 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You are your client
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2013, 10:00:50 PM »
Mike, so what you are saying is that Charlie of GT grad bona fides is your wingman, to lend cred to the 'intellectual' aspect of your reputation, known far and wide?  ::) ;) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: You are your client
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2013, 10:12:58 PM »
I don't think a course I developed and built on my own would be way, way different than the courses I'm building now.  I would try to find a great piece of land, and the land would have everything to do with what I wound up building.  In fact, I'm starting to look at doing this now on an overseas project -- trying to put together the deal so that I can build one or two courses on a great site.

However, if I were to develop a course on a flat-land site, I think that would look VERY different than anything I've built to date.  I would want to try a lot of ideas that have been on simmer for a long time, and maybe some things that past clients haven't let me do.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You are your client
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2013, 10:16:33 PM »
Mike, so what you are saying is that Charlie of GT grad bona fides is your wingman, to lend cred to the 'intellectual' aspect of your reputation, known far and wide?  ::) ;) ;D
Truth is I probably have more class hours than Charlie...but yep...he lends cred.... ;D ;D  Have you seen his new Peter Millar Wardrobe?  Same tailor and fashion coordinator as Matt on the Today show...lady even came to his closet and tagged what he could wear together...it's hard to keep Holly away from him now... ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You are your client
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2013, 10:21:17 PM »
TD, would it be too much to ask that you find a site, in the coastal dunes, that has both half dead flat iinland, and interesting dunes zone perched a 100 feet or so above the high water mark?  Oh, and near a international airport - not half a world away??   ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

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