Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?

[Wyatt Halliday]

In your defense, it could have something to do with the fact that I've probably logged over 90 rounds at Common and only a few at Rawls.

[Tom_Doak]

Your swift reply makes me think you were prepared for the Common response. Think hard...Rawls may have Common architecturally, and I'll give you that. BUT, Common Ground trumps it on many other fronts, and you know it.

It's very tough comparing the two.  They're very different.  I like the shots at Rawls more.  I like the idea behind CG more obviously.  And CG is like an architecture class (I think we've spoken of this).  But the idea and do-gooding of a golf course does not make it better.  Just as Rawls awesome construction doesn't make it better than Pac Dunes.

Personally, I'm glad we got to take the other approach at Common Ground.  The one thing I disliked about the project at Texas Tech was that so much $$$ had to be spent on creating a pretty landscape and blocking off the views to the east and making everything drain.  Whereas, at Common Ground we spent every penny we could on GOLF.

I would love to do another dead flat site again someday, though.  I did one at The Legends 20 years ago and learned a lot of things that helped us at The Rawls; and likewise, I'm sure that next time out we would do something cooler based on what worked and didn't work in Lubbock.  But, I don't know if I'll ever get another site as windy as that one to try it on.

[Ben Sims]

Your swift reply makes me think you were prepared for the Common response. Think hard...Rawls may have Common architecturally, and I'll give you that. BUT, Common Ground trumps it on many other fronts, and you know it.

It's very tough comparing the two.  They're very different.  I like the shots at Rawls more.  I like the idea behind CG more obviously.  And CG is like an architecture class (I think we've spoken of this).  But the idea and do-gooding of a golf course does not make it better.  Just as Rawls awesome construction doesn't make it better than Pac Dunes.

I assume you're referring to the "Architecture 101" stylings of Talking Stick North? If so, I agree. I've said so here (I think) and in personal conversation with you that I play with many at Common Ground who say they love it and have no idea why. I think that sentiment speaks for itself.

Ah yes, TSN. My whoopsido.  Yes CG has that same thing going for it.  But after today I think Rawls is overlooked in Texas and in the pantheon of Renaissance's work.  Mostly because it's built and it's in Lubbockistan.  Good pizza at One Guy though.  And Ryan enjoyed the coeds. 

[Sam Morrow]

Your swift reply makes me think you were prepared for the Common response. Think hard...Rawls may have Common architecturally, and I'll give you that. BUT, Common Ground trumps it on many other fronts, and you know it.

It's very tough comparing the two.  They're very different.  I like the shots at Rawls more.  I like the idea behind CG more obviously.  And CG is like an architecture class (I think we've spoken of this).  But the idea and do-gooding of a golf course does not make it better.  Just as Rawls awesome construction doesn't make it better than Pac Dunes.

I assume you're referring to the "Architecture 101" stylings of Talking Stick North? If so, I agree. I've said so here (I think) and in personal conversation with you that I play with many at Common Ground who say they love it and have no idea why. I think that sentiment speaks for itself.

Ah yes, TSN. My whoopsido.  Yes CG has that same thing going for it.  But after today I think Rawls is overlooked in Texas and in the pantheon of Renaissance's work.  Mostly because it's built and it's in Lubbockistan.  Good pizza at One Guy though.  And Ryan enjoyed the coeds. 

Do we know for sure that he went back to school or is he looking for a slumpbuster in Lubbock?

[Ben Sims]

Tom,

Drainage seemed to me to be the biggest headache with construction.  Based on what I saw today.  Is that true?

I'm sure all that landscaping went against your ideals in many ways.  But if The Rawls does become your final dead flat mass construction project (your Shadow Creek if you will), what did you learn?

[Ben Sims]

Your swift reply makes me think you were prepared for the Common response. Think hard...Rawls may have Common architecturally, and I'll give you that. BUT, Common Ground trumps it on many other fronts, and you know it.

It's very tough comparing the two.  They're very different.  I like the shots at Rawls more.  I like the idea behind CG more obviously.  And CG is like an architecture class (I think we've spoken of this).  But the idea and do-gooding of a golf course does not make it better.  Just as Rawls awesome construction doesn't make it better than Pac Dunes.

I assume you're referring to the "Architecture 101" stylings of Talking Stick North? If so, I agree. I've said so here (I think) and in personal conversation with you that I play with many at Common Ground who say they love it and have no idea why. I think that sentiment speaks for itself.

Ah yes, TSN. My whoopsido.  Yes CG has that same thing going for it.  But after today I think Rawls is overlooked in Texas and in the pantheon of Renaissance's work.  Mostly because it's built and it's in Lubbockistan.  Good pizza at One Guy though.  And Ryan enjoyed the coeds. 

Do we know for sure that he went back to school or is he looking for a slumpbuster in Lubbock?

Yes, he's back at school.  I know because I drove cheerfully.  Even though his 3 slice pizza intake caused an emergency combat offload in Paducah Texas.  Yeah, look that up on a map. 

[Sam Morrow]

I've been there, my fake ID never worked in Oklahoma but in Texas it was gangbusters.

[Sam Morrow]

Does 6 at Commonground play anything like 16 at Augusta?

[Wyatt Halliday]

Your swift reply makes me think you were prepared for the Common response. Think hard...Rawls may have Common architecturally, and I'll give you that. BUT, Common Ground trumps it on many other fronts, and you know it.

It's very tough comparing the two.  They're very different.  I like the shots at Rawls more.  I like the idea behind CG more obviously.  And CG is like an architecture class (I think we've spoken of this).  But the idea and do-gooding of a golf course does not make it better.  Just as Rawls awesome construction doesn't make it better than Pac Dunes.

Personally, I'm glad we got to take the other approach at Common Ground.  The one thing I disliked about the project at Texas Tech was that so much $$$ had to be spent on creating a pretty landscape and blocking off the views to the east and making everything drain.  Whereas, at Common Ground we spent every penny we could on GOLF.

I would love to do another dead flat site again someday, though.  I did one at The Legends 20 years ago and learned a lot of things that helped us at The Rawls; and likewise, I'm sure that next time out we would do something cooler based on what worked and didn't work in Lubbock.  But, I don't know if I'll ever get another site as windy as that one to try it on.

Plenty of flat sites in Texas...I hope it happens sooner than later.

Rawls and Wolf Point represent for me the only thoughtful architecture in the state which is why they are my two favorites. Pine Dunes is in the next tier, but given the property it should be very good.

Champions, Whispering Pines, Brook Hollow, Dallas National and Vaquero are favorites for reasons more associated with club atmosphere and the ubiquitous "test of golf" they provide, than what's on the ground. A sneaky favorite of mine is Lakewood in Dallas, but that makes me a homer because of the C&C association.

[Sam Morrow]

Wyatt sounds like you haven't played Austin Golf Club

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Drainage seemed to me to be the biggest headache with construction.  Based on what I saw today.  Is that true?

I'm sure all that landscaping went against your ideals in many ways.  But if The Rawls does become your final dead flat mass construction project (your Shadow Creek if you will), what did you learn?

The drainage was certainly complicated.  At the start of the grading exercise, I was trying to get as much contour on the lower part of the course as possible WITHOUT using drainage sumps, and there are not many projects which have 800-foot runs of big pipe laid at 0.5% so that the high end of the pipe could be dug as deep as possible to create some relief.  [That's why the 14th hole is so flat, it's at the far end of the big pipe.]

Later on, we realized that the north half of the site COULD NOT be drained toward the big pond on 18 because that would allow flood water that was supposed to go across the site to fill up the "bathtub" in the southern half.  Once we realized that, and that we'd have to put in drainage sump pumps in those areas so we could keep the switch off in a flood event, then it was fair game to make the lows as deep as we wanted to.  If I had to do it again, I'd use sumps all over the site, and create more sharp little features instead of big broad lows.

Incidentally, The Rawls is certainly NOT our final dead-flat construction site, the project we're building in China right now is a sandbar on a river, that had maybe 6-8 feet of elevation change on it.  That one is completely different, because we have to design everything around the inevitable flood ... so the landforms are quite different than anything we've built to date.  Even flat sites are different!

[Wyatt Halliday]

Does 6 at Commonground play anything like 16 at Augusta?

While similar, I would say no due to the placement (and depth) of the bunker on the right side of the green and the fact that wind plays a bigger role at CG.

[Tom_Doak]

Does 6 at Commonground play anything like 16 at Augusta?

That was the idea behind it, but I don't think it turned out that well.  The hole locations are slightly too small, so it's really hard to hit it in the right section of the green with the wind up.  Even the guys in the Amateur qualifier had a hard time with it.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Wyatt sounds like you haven't played Austin Golf Club

I've yet to be invited  

One more thing about the 6th at Common. That green is superb, more so when the hole is cut in a back location than a front. It's almost a full shot difference if you can believe it.

Come up and get a look for yourself.

[Sam Morrow]

Wyatt sounds like you haven't played Austin Golf Club

I've yet to be invited  

One more thing about the 6th at Common. That green is superb, more so when the hole is cut in a back location than a front. It's almost a full shot difference if you can believe it.

Come up and get a look for yourself.

As a matter of fact................

[Wyatt Halliday]

If I recall correctly, the sixth played almost equal in scoring during the AM as the seventeenth, and did so while giving up sixty yards!

[Ben Sims]

Tom,

You mentioned using more sumps to enable you to make smaller, more abrupt high and lows.  Would that have allowed less cubics of dirt to have been moved and saved a bit of money?

Also, I noticed how well you guys used speed slots near and around bunkers.  Seems like a double edged solution.  Meaning that it rewards golfers that challenge the bunker and it moves water away from bunker areas.  Is this true?