News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« on: February 17, 2013, 09:33:59 PM »
I think there is an argument to be made that it could be.  This is distinctly different from arguing that it is Renaissance's greatest course.  Which of course it is not.

But as I played my round today with Ryan Mahaffey (Don's son), I found myself very much in awe of architecture and construction.   The golf was extremely compelling on all fronts.  And the movement of the land transported the golfer into a mindset that I did not expect, though rather enjoyed.

Yes, it's one thing to make Pac Dunes fun and good with a site as wonderful as it is. But it's entirely another when the site was a dead flat cotton field.  Even still the tenets as minimalism were retained, and a greatly underrated golf course was the result.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2013, 09:35:56 PM »
Those trees I planted must be looking awfully good by now, if that course has become our greatest achievement!

But, in addition to Jim Urbina running the job, we had Eric Iverson and Brian Slawnik and Kye Goalby all shaping there for several months, plus the guy on the trackhoe who did all the berms along the north and east sides of the property.  I don't doubt that they built a lot of cool stuff -- probably more than I can even remember.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 09:38:40 PM by Tom_Doak »

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2013, 09:41:15 PM »
Thoughts on Renaissance's greatest achievement being identifying and fostering passionate and talented golf architectural professionals?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2013, 09:42:29 PM »
I didn't notice the trees so much.

But I did notice a golf course playable in 20knot gusting 30knot wind.  I noticed large landforms with a big impact on positioning.  I noticed severe bunkers.

This isn't a sycophantic post Tom.  It's meant to engender a conversation about built vs. found golf courses.  

Or maybe it's been awhile since I played a decent golf course.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 09:45:24 PM by Ben Sims »

Andy Troeger

Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2013, 09:46:28 PM »
Ben,
I see where you're going, but I can't say that Rawls is a better achievement than Pac Dunes. And admittedly, I think Lost Dunes would get my vote because its a top 100 level course built with the big challenge of dealing with property on both sides of an interstate highway. Pac Dunes is still up there, because we've seen that great properties don't always lead to great golf courses.

The Rawls is very well done, but I don't think the gap between it and Fazio's Butterfield Trail in El Paso is THAT significant (Rawls is the better of the two). I think the gap would honestly be larger at the very top (Pac Dunes, Rock Creek, etc), but obviously there is room for disagreement.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2013, 09:51:36 PM »
Thoughts on Renaissance's greatest achievement being identifying and fostering passionate and talented golf architectural professionals?

Mac:

If thirty years from now, somebody thinks that's the case, I will be happy with that assessment.

I really can't take too much credit for identifying them.  They tend to volunteer themselves; we've just been a magnet for them by keeping our internship program going through thick and thin.  It's amazing how many resumes I get every year, and how many young people there are who are as well-prepared for a career in golf course design as I was at age 20.  

I just wish I could put them all to work without running myself into the ground.

Really, though, I don't know why anybody else would worry about trying to figure out what was my greatest "achievement".  I don't know why anyone else's opinion on that would really matter.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 10:01:51 PM by Tom_Doak »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2013, 09:58:12 PM »
This isn't a sycophantic post Tom.  It's meant to engender a conversation about built vs. found golf courses.
 

Ben:

I know that, although some others here won't give you the benefit of the doubt.  I'm happy to hear more about the course; I've only played it twice, and it's been several years since the last time, so I really don't know what parts worked best and what didn't.

The one corner of the course that I was kind of disappointed with was the two par-3's up in the northwest corner -- the third and sixth.  The third is a wicked green, but we had decided to go big there with the earthmoving, and I didn't think the end result made as big of a splash as it could have.  I think the bowls were too big, and too gentle; it might have been more dramatic if we had left more area at grade, and given steeper banks to the lows.

My favorite hole there is the long par-4 8th ... partly because one of the only things I remember about the original site is that the 8th green was originally the hub of one of those giant center-pivot irrigation systems!

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2013, 10:23:19 PM »
Tom,

There's no doubt that the northwestern part of the property is the most aggressive. And aside from the awesome green at #3 (some Eden qualities there), it was too big in the high vs. low department. But that feeling quickly subsides as you move on into the meat of the property on #4 and 5.  Returning to that area on #6 is odd I thought.  But the 7-8 stretch again corrects that feeling.

What I enjoyed the most about the massive earthmoving was the use of turbo slots to get water out of the fairway, away from bunkers, and generally reward golfers who challenged the bunkers.  Except on one or two holes where the reward is to play away from them.

I also really enjoyed playing the shortest par 4's down wind and the longest par 4's generally into the wind.  This must really piss off the college golfers that think short hitters shouldn't be able to challenge them on the shorter two shotters.

The blind 12th was a highlight. As was the 13th.  In fact, nearly the entire back nine (11-17) worked very well in terms of variety, change in direction, and variety in green shape. 

I made an observation that #1 could be in a conversation of your strongest openers along with #1 at Old Mac.

Ryan's favorite hole on the front nine was #8 because of the elevated green and how uphill the shot was for both of us. We both lashed drives that went about 240yds.  Conversely, we both caught one on #17, and they rolled out to 400yds.  Throughout the day the theme was "pick the right line."  Mostly because the approaches were the hardest of any Renaissance course I've yet played.  And because the wind was brutal. 

The fact that all of this was built was pretty cool.  I have never felt that way on a "built" golf course before. 

Sam Morrow

Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2013, 10:33:53 PM »
Heck I thought those par 3's on the front were the best part of the course. I thought Rawls was very good, I have not played Butterfield but as of right now I'd probably have Rawls as my third best true public (not counting a resort like Barton Creek) in Texas. I'd put it behind Old American and Pine Dunes. With more plays of each it might have a chance to pass up Pine Dunes. I really want to see Max Mandel this year though.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2013, 10:40:41 PM »
It is beyond me how you could have seen this land and still taken the job.Lubbock is the most exposed drab land that exists.Was there at least some concern that  the course would be a disappointment ? Was this a professional risk?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2013, 10:47:30 PM »
No
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sam Morrow

Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2013, 10:49:33 PM »
Lubbock is a sad looking place but the girls are easy.

Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2013, 10:52:16 PM »
It's meant to engender a conversation about built vs. found golf courses. 
 
Thoughts on Renaissance's greatest achievement being identifying and fostering passionate and talented golf architectural professionals?

Please allow me to submit Common Ground for nomination on both fronts.

Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2013, 10:53:38 PM »
Lubbock is a sad looking place but the girls are easy.

Easy maybe, plentifully beautiful? No doubt. Lubbock is famous for attracting the attractive. I have no idea why.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2013, 10:54:12 PM »
It's meant to engender a conversation about built vs. found golf courses. 
 
Thoughts on Renaissance's greatest achievement being identifying and fostering passionate and talented golf architectural professionals?

Please allow me to submit Common Ground for nomination on both fronts.

Rawls beats Common 3&2.

Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2013, 10:56:11 PM »
Your swift reply makes me think you were prepared for the Common response. Think hard...Rawls may have Common architecturally, and I'll give you that. BUT, Common Ground trumps it on many other fronts, and you know it.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2013, 10:56:58 PM »
It is beyond me how you could have seen this land and still taken the job.Lubbock is the most exposed drab land that exists.Was there at least some concern that  the course would be a disappointment ? Was this a professional risk?

Mike:

I took the job because

a)  It was not long after 9/11.  The world had slowed down and there weren't many other jobs on offer.

b)  Word about Pacific Dunes was still getting out.  We weren't in the catbird's seat for other great sites quite yet.

c)  After Pacific Dunes, whatever site we worked on was going to be a step backwards.  I figured it didn't hurt us to step ALL the way back and try to make something out of nothing, and remind us what was reality.  And,

d)  What was the professional risk?  What expectations did anybody have for us on that site?


Of course, not long after we started The Rawls Course, I went to New Zealand with Julian Robertson for the first time, and found out that we could have some more great sites in our future.

Sam Morrow

Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2013, 10:57:18 PM »
Lubbock is a sad looking place but the girls are easy.

Easy maybe, plentifully beautiful? No doubt. Lubbock is famous for attracting the attractive. I have no idea why.

I think Lubbock takes advantage of the fact it's away from everything but the hotties still get in state tuition.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2013, 11:01:52 PM »
Lubbock is famous for attracting the attractive. I have no idea why.

A friend of ours from Texas theorized that the constant wind on their faces made them all beautifully smooth.  :)

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2013, 11:03:18 PM »
Your swift reply makes me think you were prepared for the Common response. Think hard...Rawls may have Common architecturally, and I'll give you that. BUT, Common Ground trumps it on many other fronts, and you know it.

It's very tough comparing the two.  They're very different.  I like the shots at Rawls more.  I like the idea behind CG more obviously.  And CG is like an architecture class (I think we've spoken of this).  But the idea and do-gooding of a golf course does not make it better.  Just as Rawls awesome construction doesn't make it better than Pac Dunes.

Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2013, 11:03:35 PM »
Especially the hotties trying to "escape".

In my graduating class of 1350, almost 400 souls went to Tech, and they drove roughly seven hours to get there. I have much love for Tech, with many friends (and former ones) as alumni. Good times for sure.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2013, 11:05:03 PM »
I think Renaissance's greatest achievement is the melding of and using the talents of many talented individuals to produce what must be nearly the most thoughtful courses for the sites given.

Given that, are you saying Rawls is more thoughtful than Apache Stronghold or Old MacDonald?

It is certainly an impossible question to answer from outside of RD.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2013, 11:06:09 PM »
Lubbock is famous for attracting the attractive. I have no idea why.

A friend of ours from Texas theorized that the constant wind on their faces made them all beautifully smooth.  :)

I guess there's something to say for whatever type of dirt exists in that crazy part of the world.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2013, 11:07:06 PM »
Tom,you could always say you were designing for the 4 knuckle grip.Those West Texas guys sure like strong grips

Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is The Rawls Course Renaissance's greatest achievement?
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2013, 11:08:41 PM »
Your swift reply makes me think you were prepared for the Common response. Think hard...Rawls may have Common architecturally, and I'll give you that. BUT, Common Ground trumps it on many other fronts, and you know it.

It's very tough comparing the two.  They're very different.  I like the shots at Rawls more.  I like the idea behind CG more obviously.  And CG is like an architecture class (I think we've spoken of this).  But the idea and do-gooding of a golf course does not make it better.  Just as Rawls awesome construction doesn't make it better than Pac Dunes.

I assume you're referring to the "Architecture 101" stylings of Talking Stick North? If so, I agree. I've said so here (I think) and in personal conversation with you that I play with many at Common Ground who say they love it and have no idea why. I think that sentiment speaks for itself.