And all this time I thought that

[Patrick_Mucci]

MacKenzie was the creator of the unique style of bunkers you see at CPC and other California courses, but when Tommy Naccarato posted some early black and white photos of courses by Bell, Hunter and Behr it seemed to me that MacKenzie wasn't the creator of that style, rather, possibly Hunter, Bell, Thomas, Behr, Macbeth or Watson.




MacKenzie's first California course isn't until 1927, and then in conjunction with Hunter.

Hunter's first California course is in 1921, six years before MacKenzie puts a shovel in the ground.  
In addition he designed California courses in 1927 and 1928.

Behr's first California course is in 1920 with others in 1922 and 1924, again, years before MacKenzie's efforts

Bell's first California course is in 1921, with others in 1922, 1923, 1925 and 1926, again, years before MacKenzie begins his California designs.

Thomas's California designs start in 1921 and continue in 1924, 1925, 1926 and 1927.

Macbeth's California courses date to 1911 and 1919.

Watson's California courses date to 1923 and 1928

Bell and Thomas worked together in the early 1920's.
MacKenzie worked with Hunter.

So, who crafted that unique style of California bunker ?

It certainly doesn't appear to be MacKenzie.

[RJ_Daley]

Pat, have you forgotten to look at the Good Dr.'s work in GB&I, prior to 1925 or so?  Looking at olf photos of MacKenzie's work there demonstrates this alluring natural bunker edging and scab appearances.  Of course the origin of such was Dr. MacKenzie's effort to camoflauge and create hazards that worked with the terrain and created various illusions or attractions to the golfer's eye. 

Shouldn't we not forget the lacy frill or wave over lips of this California contingent are also a result of soils, grasses, and evolving machinery to maintain them?  I'm not sure one can overlook the collaborative effort or collegeality leading to "the look" as a factor in how these courses you mention, came about to form a sort of 'west coast' genre.

[Patrick_Mucci]

RJ,

Then how do you explain the appearance of that style pre Dr Mac's first California course ?

I haven't seen many photos of Dr Mac's UK bunkers prior to 1927.
Where did you find them and can you post them.

I don't think machinery to maintain them had anything to do with their early appearance as I hunk they were all maintained by hand.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

Then why did MacKenzie bring over Jack Fleming and a crew of Irishmen to build his bunkers, if all he had to do was hire guys from California?

I am not sure that MacKenzie was the first to be building those bunkers in California, but I do know you've got your dates wrong.  He arrived in 1926 and went straight away to The Meadow Club where Hunter had started the course, and then to Cypress Point to interview for the job on the heels of Raynor's death.  Based on MacKenzie's m.o., it's highly likely that he worked on some bunkers at The Meadow Club that summer of 1926.  I don't know who saw whose work first, MacKenzie or Bell.  I know they met at Riviera, but not sure whether it was on MacKenzie's first trip, or later on.

Also, don't forget that Max Behr went and visited MacKenzie in the UK.  I think that was at the same Open at St. Andrews where you insist that MacKenzie didn't meet Bobby Jones -- even though he walked The Old Course during the Open with O.B. Keeler.

We should really give all these photos and dates to someone like Neil Crafter, who knows MacKenzie's whereabouts pretty exactly, and let him try to sort out who knew what, when.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean Tully has Mac meeting Hunter in San Francisco on January 29, 1926. Meadow Club's original bunkers were highly distinctive. Evocative of peanut butter cups.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

Then why did MacKenzie bring over Jack Fleming and a crew of Irishmen to build his bunkers, if all he had to do was hire guys from California?
For the same reason that American architects bring their crews/foremen to jobs overseas.
Familiarity and trust[/color]

I am not sure that MacKenzie was the first to be building those bunkers in California,

That's my point !


but I do know you've got your dates wrong.  He arrived in 1926 and went straight away to The Meadow Club where Hunter had started the course, and then to Cypress Point to interview for the job on the heels of Raynor's death.  

I'm fairly certain that the dates are correct.
At least Whitten and Cornish seem to think so, although, they're not infallible

Based on MacKenzie's m.o., it's highly likely that he worked on some bunkers at The Meadow Club that summer of 1926.  I don't know who saw whose work first, MacKenzie or Bell.  I know they met at Riviera, but not sure whether it was on MacKenzie's first trip, or later on.


Don't forget that those guys in California were building courses years before Mackenzie set foot in California.
1911 thru 1926.   For 15 years before Mackenzie arrived they were designing and building courses/bunkers.
That's a long time, and, in the hayday of golf flourishing in California.[/size]

Also, don't forget that Max Behr went and visited MacKenzie in the UK.  I think that was at the same Open at St. Andrews where you insist that MacKenzie didn't meet Bobby Jones -- even though he walked The Old Course during the Open with O.B. Keeler.


Tom, I'm afraid that a combination of your lack of reading comprehension and personal angst are getting in the way of your ability to think clearly.
What I stated is that there's NO documented evidence that Jones and Mackenzie formally met at the Open at TOC.
However, if you have that documentation, we'd appreciate your production of same


We should really give all these photos and dates to someone like Neil Crafter, who knows MacKenzie's whereabouts pretty exactly, and let him try to sort out who knew what, when.

I think that's an excellent idea, but, it only accounts for Mackenzie.

It doesn't account for the work of the other California course architects

Proof positive would be photos PRIOR to 1927.

If photos from 1900 to 1926 depict that style, then we know, without fear of contradiction, that they're not Mackenzie's creation/style.

Hence, I would ask Tommy Naccarato and anyone else with access to photos pre 1927, to post them for evaluation.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Patrick, I'm curious to hear your argument in support of this statement: "If photos from 1900 to 1926 depict that style, then we know, without fear of contradiction, that they're not Mackenzie's creation/style."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

It would mean that that bunker style was indigenous to California long before Mackenzie set foot in California.

In other words, he didn't import them to California, they were already there.

I'd also like to see photos of Mackenzie's UK bunkers prior to 1927

[Mark Bourgeois]

Wouldn't that assume none of the California designers saw Mac's GB&I work, either in person or in pictures, unless I suppose you uncover a pic of California work ante dating 1907?

[Tommy Naccarato]

I promise to add something to this thread later. After that, I have another website to contribute to!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wouldn't that assume none of the California designers saw Mac's GB&I work, either in person or in pictures, unless I suppose you uncover a pic of California work ante dating 1907?

Mark,

Your response seems to be a blind defense of the acceptance of Mackenzie's influence on California bunker style rather than an objective pursuit of the facts.

Does this not remind you of Wilson's alleged trip to the UK prior to 1912 ?

To try to answer your question I would first ask the following.

1.    Did any of the architects mentioned travel to the UK prior to 1927
2.    If so Did any of them visit a Mackenzie course
3.    If so, Which course
4.    did that course have bunkers reflective of the California style
5.    Did those architects ever see pictures of a UK Mackenzie course
6.    If so, what course
7.    Did it have bunkers in the California style

You see, your statement predisposes an answer favorable to MacKenzie being responsible for the California style.
Rather than asking the seven or so questions above.

If there are pre 1926 photos the depict what I'm calling the California style, one thing is irrefutable, and that's that they predated Mackenzie's arrival in California.

So, upon production of those photos, the next question is, whom, other than Mackenzie introduced them and in what year ?

Once we ascertain that we can determine if that person had ever visited the UK prior to his design of the course with the California style bunkers.

An open mind, rather than a blind defense will reveal the facts much quicker

The cause of Crump's death and the date of Wilson's trip were myths that died hard, will this be another, or is Mackenzie alone the father of the California bunker ?

Let's find out !

Pre 1926 photos please !

[Mark Chaplin]

Past why don't you produce the evidence that no one travelled to the UK or saw pictures of such courses. Your usual line of attack is documentary evidence so no doubt you can produce it to prosecute your theory?? In UK law the prosecution proves their case not the other way around.

[Bill_McBride]

Wouldn't that assume none of the California designers saw Mac's GB&I work, either in person or in pictures, unless I suppose you uncover a pic of California work ante dating 1907?

Mark,

Your response seems to be a blind defense of the acceptance of Mackenzie's influence on California bunker style rather than an objective pursuit of the facts.

Does this not remind you of Wilson's alleged trip to the UK prior to 1912 ?

To try to answer your question I would first ask the following.

1.    Did any of the architects mentioned travel to the UK prior to 1927
2.    If so Did any of them visit a Mackenzie course
3.    If so, Which course
4.    did that course have bunkers reflective of the California style
5.    Did those architects ever see pictures of a UK Mackenzie course
6.    If so, what course
7.    Did it have bunkers in the California style

You see, your statement predisposes an answer favorable to MacKenzie being responsible for the California style.
Rather than asking the seven or so questions above.

If there are pre 1926 photos the depict what I'm calling the California style, one thing is irrefutable, and that's that they predated Mackenzie's arrival in California.

So, upon production of those photos, the next question is, whom, other than Mackenzie introduced them and in what year ?

Once we ascertain that we can determine if that person had ever visited the UK prior to his design of the course with the California style bunkers.

An open mind, rather than a blind defense will reveal the facts much quicker

The cause of Crump's death and the date of Wilson's trip were myths that died hard, will this be another, or is Mackenzie alone the father of the California bunker ?

Let's find out !

Pre 1926 photos please !

It appears Mr. Mucci is planning to write a book and would love to have someone else do the research work for him!

The Mackenzie experts have published a timeline of his visits to America and Down Under.  If earlier bunkers in California seem to be in the same style, it makes sense that such designers as Tillinghast and Thomas or at least one of those who predates Dr Mackenzie must have visited the same courses that influenced MacK.  Or perhaps even some of MacK's work!

[Sven Nilsen]

Well said, Bill.

I'm not sure where Pat gets the idea that the rest of us were holding on to the fallacy that he has admitted he believed in error.

[Sven Nilsen]

Fowler may very well be the key.



"LACC member George C. Thomas carried out Fowler's construction plans for the Beverly Links as Herbert was a very busy man making models for all 3 Los Angeles courses while also working in Northern California on Presidio, Pebble Beach and Del Monte, all of which he completed between 1920 and 1922."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Past why don't you produce the evidence that no one travelled to the UK or saw pictures of such courses. Your usual line of attack is documentary evidence so no doubt you can produce it to prosecute your theory?? In UK law the prosecution proves their case not the other way around.

Mark,

I'll remember that when I next visit the UK.

But, I see that you too would rather protect and perpetuate the status quo rather than discover the truth.

Why ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

I doubt I'm alone, and the strident defense of Mackenzie would seem to confirm same.

I was under the impression that Fowler designed LACC in 1911 and that he designed other California courses in 1920,  1921 and 1922,

Mackenzie's work in Australia is all 1926 and later.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Fowler may very well be the key.



"LACC member George C. Thomas carried out Fowler's construction plans for the Beverly Links as Herbert was a very busy man making models for all 3 Los Angeles courses while also working in Northern California on Presidio, Pebble Beach and Del Monte, all of which he completed between 1920 and 1922."

I didn't know Tom Simpson had visited the States at all... Is there any work at all credited to him?...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Also, don't forget that Max Behr went and visited MacKenzie in the UK.  I think that was at the same Open at St. Andrews where you insist that MacKenzie didn't meet Bobby Jones -- even though he walked The Old Course during the Open with O.B. Keeler.

Tom,

That would be the 1927 British Open.
By 1927 Max Behr had already made his mark in California, having designed six courses between 1920 and 1924, with his last original course being Rancho Santa Fe in 1927.  In addition he had redesigned another four courses in the same time period

By the time Behr met Mackenzie, Behr's active career in golf course design was essentially over.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Fowler may very well be the key.



"LACC member George C. Thomas carried out Fowler's construction plans for the Beverly Links as Herbert was a very busy man making models for all 3 Los Angeles courses while also working in Northern California on Presidio, Pebble Beach and Del Monte, all of which he completed between 1920 and 1922."

Sven,

It would appear that the above article is from 1921, the year Fowler is credited with remodeling Presidio GC.
In addition to his design of LACC South in 1911, he designed three courses between 1920 and 1922 and remodeled several more in that time frame.

Let's not also forget that Mackenzie partnered with Colt and Allison between 1918-1921-1928, and then, when he settled in the U.S. he formed partnerships with Robert Hunter, Chandler Egan and later, Perry Maxwell.

And, in Mackenzie's book, "Golf Architecture", none of the thirteen essential features he listed, made any direct reference to bunkering or bunkering style.  If that style of bunker, that I reference as the "California Style", was his creation, wouldn't there be a direct or indirect mention of it ?

Hunter had designed courses as early as 1921 in California and written his book, "The Links" by 1926.
Additionally, Simpson, who partnered with Fowler had also written a book on architecture in 1929, "The Architectural Side of Golf", with illustrations eerily reminiscent of the "California Style" I referenced.
The "Lace Edges" he references would seem to equate to the "California Style.

I find it difficult, to improbable, to impossible to accept that an architect in the UK, never having been to California, never having seen the terrain, would design bunkers for specific sites, sight unseen from 8,000 miles away.

Mackenzie's "Golf Architecture" published in 1920 has a number of photos from his courses and other courses where the bunker styles can be observed.  Interestingly, many of the bunkers and the footpads they sit in are totally artificial.  Citations reference that the bunkers and their raised footpads were once flat land.  Perhaps most interesting are the photos of CPC prior to construction.

The "California" or "laced edge" style of bunker did not seem to enjoy systemic success on the east coast or midwest.
Since Los Angeles was a "high desert" in the early part of the 20th Century, I wonder how much the soil had to do with "California" or "Laced Edge" bunker style ?  

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

This is TN's take from the other thread (and coincides with the club's history on their website):

"What I think Pat was referring to was the date golf started being played at the current site of The Los Angeles Country Club. Originally, the course was laid out by Ed Tufts, Joesph Sartori and Norman Macbeth. Soon after, the need for a more thorough design was observed and the hiring of Herbert Fowler took place with a transplanted Pennsylvanian name George C. Thomas Jr. overseeing construction of the course. By 1928, Thomas had redesign North and was in the middle of redesigning the South at the time of his death."

Are you confusing Fowler with MacBeth regarding the 1911 work?

Ally:

The ad (or article) notes the name of the firm of Fowler & Simpson, but Fowler was the only one doing work in the US.

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

I think it would be helpful if you would define what you mean by a "California Style" bunker.  

If its a bunker that is meant to look natural with edges and surrounding contours that fit in with the undulations of the surrounding turf, MacKenzie discussed those concepts in Golf Architecture.  He may not have specifically referenced the components of the bunkers you are discussing, but he did discuss the principles that would lead to this style.

For reference, here are a few photos of his bunker work from the book:









Sven

[Tommy Naccarato]

These are images from USGA Green Section's January 1925 issue regarding Beautiful Artistic Bunkers in California (The same kind of look that Tom Doak tries to utilize in his designs, and which I think he was inspired by enlightened west coasters, even though the practice was around much longer in and around Great Britain)  The site is Max Behr's Oakmont Country Club. The first nine holes were opened for play in June 1924 with the back nine followed soon after. The course was built by one William Park Bell.

Current day, 5th hole, but it looks nothing like this anymore.


Current day 11th, and this is the image that let me recognized it was Oakmont Country Club by the high transmission towers (for the day) They can be seen in a lot of historical Oakmont photos. The tee shot comes in from the right side over the barranca, as this is taken from the left side of the green.


Current day 9th/old 18th left side of green

[Bill_McBride]

It's pretty obvious that Pat intends to employ cyber bullying, or what I refer to as the Notre Dame School of Debate, to bludgeon one and all with his theory that earlier architects created MacKenzie's bunkering style before the Good Doctor arrived in California. 

Do Tommy's photos indicate that MacKenzie copied that style after coming to California?  I for one don't think so.  MacK talked about emulating the look of clouds in his bunkers, not the work of other architects. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

That's your distorted view of my premise, an inaccurate one at that.

Would you agree that if other architects employed that bunker style in California prior to 1926 that that bunker style in California can't be Makenzie's bunker style ?

Anyone who equates logic and deductive reasoning with cyber-bullying and "the Notre  Dame School of Debate" ie Bludgeoning, is admitting that they can't engage in an intelligent discussion/debate, and as a diversionary tactic tries to demonize the views of another.

Notre Dame has nothing to do with this topic, nor does cyber-bullying.

If you can't participate in an intelligent discussion on this topic then you shouldn't participate

This is why this site has deteriorated.

Rather than present a reasoned position, because of your own inadequacies, you resort to name calling and demonizing.

You add nothing to the discussions and have now corrupted this thread.