Why is there so little discussion on

[Patrick_Mucci]

west coast courses ?

How about a discussion on Rancho Santa Fe ?

A course by Behr with a storied history.

[David_Tepper]

Pat -

The sun is shining and the temps in California will be 65F-70F today. We would rather spend our time playing golf than gab about some golf course that few of us have ever played!

DT

P.S. Be sure to check out Matt Cohn's "In My Opinion" piece on Lincoln Park in San Francisco.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54859.0.html

[Jim_Kennedy]

Because the 'Westies' now have their own site.  

Pete Lavallee started a thread on RSF a couple years back, lots of pics.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44822.0.html

[Pete Lavallee]

Thanks for the link Jim. Rancho Santa Fe is a great topic for discusssion. The Max Behr course is still a great test of golf, they hosted the Ca. Am two years ago. It also proves that sometimes rich people do stupid things too! The figure 8 routing was bisected by a creek which the club chose to dam at the bottom of the course to create a pond fronting the 13th green and pipe it underground through the rest of the course in orgder that there be "no wet spots". The new hazard is grassed and has beautiful palms trees though!

[Tim Leahy]

Pete is our SD golf expert, but Rancho Sane Fe is so exclusive that most of west coast guys have never seen it except in pictures. There are west coast oriented threads like the new one discussing why Cordevalle should host the US Women's Open and not one of the classic bay area courses.

[Pete Lavallee]

Tim,

Although Rancho Santa Fe is a private club there are several ways to gain access. If you stay at the Rancho Santa Fe Inn you can play after 1:00; $210 with mandatory $100 forecaddy. I believe a stay at the Hotel Valencia grants access as well.

[Tim Passalacqua]

Pat,

I have asked myself why we don't discuss the west coast more and the only thing I can think of is there are a lot more GCAers on the east coast.  There is plenty to talk about.  LACC, Riviera, Rustic Canyon, Valley Club, Cypress, Pebble, MPCC, Olympic, SFGC, Pasatiempo, Meadow Club, Cal Club, Bandon (that's been covered plenty), Chambers Bay, etc.  I feel like a lot more of these guys have played so much more on the east coast and into the carolinas.  I try to add my two cents when I can on courses I have played...way more on the west coast.  I can't contribute anything to the discussions on Merion, National, or Chechessee.  Just a thought.

Tim

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat,

Maybe because Tommy hangs his hat elsewhere.

[Patrick Kiser]

Or maybe because it's so depressing to see what's happened to CA courses ... that it simply makes one want to cry ... or vomit.

Then again, there are a couple of exceptions here and there...

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=50684.0

[Tom_Doak]

Pat,

I have asked myself why we don't discuss the west coast more and the only thing I can think of is there are a lot more GCAers on the east coast.  There is plenty to talk about.  LACC, Riviera, Rustic Canyon, Valley Club, Cypress, Pebble, MPCC, Olympic, SFGC, Pasatiempo, Meadow Club, Cal Club, Bandon (that's been covered plenty), Chambers Bay, etc. 

Patrick:

Also, as you know, the impressive lineup of courses above is a good match for the area from New York to Philadelphia -- and not the whole east coast.  There are 2x or 3x as many great courses to talk about in the East as in the West.  The reasons for this are the population distribution of the country in 1925, and, water availability.

Actually, I think the Midwest is more under-rated in terms of exposure on Golf Club Atlas.  There are never any threads about the courses in Detroit and Cleveland and Columbus and Pittsburgh, and it's pretty much fly-over country for the PGA Tour now, too.

[Matthew Mollica]

I've written a piece for Golf Australia magazine, entitled California Dreamin' which will be featured in their next edition. Not sure if it is readily available to non-subscribers online, but it listed and discussed almost two dozen West Coast courses, from Torrey Pines to Meadow Club, and everything in between. Golf in California is wonderful, with great Clubs and courses designed by Thomas, Tillie, MacKenzie, Hanse, Doak and others. Several of the best are open to the public. Add in the great weather, wonderful people and off-course activities - West Coast golf takes some beating!

MM

[Sam Morrow]

I think there is plenty of talk about west coast courses here. Let's face it, as of late Merion and Streamsong have dominated the site. Last summer there was all the talk of Olympic, it goes in cycles.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Thanks for the link Jim. Rancho Santa Fe is a great topic for discusssion. The Max Behr course is still a great test of golf, they hosted the Ca. Am two years ago. It also proves that sometimes rich people do stupid things too! The figure 8 routing was bisected by a creek which the club chose to dam at the bottom of the course to create a pond fronting the 13th green and pipe it underground through the rest of the course in orgder that there be "no wet spots". The new hazard is grassed and has beautiful palms trees though!

Pete,

In what year was the dam introduced ?

[Pete Lavallee]

The course has a figure 8 routing with La Orilla Creek flowing from east to west; the site also slopes from east to west with the 13th hole being the lowest point on the golf course. Originally Behr had the creek fronting the green with a marshy area with reeds catching the eventual oveflow. Like all creeks in San Diego they are bone dry in summer and have to carry several significant amounts of water during winter storms. Surely the area was prone to flooding during the rainy season. The creek was damed in 1945 to create the pond now fronting the green.

The real dissapointment was the Club's decision to eliminate the natural creek by underground piping. On the front nine the hazard is planted in berrmuda grass with palm trees. On the back nine it's been changed into an artificial creek with a pumped source.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pete,

Can you post some photos.

I loved the course

On the second or third hole an attractive woman riding a horse engaged me in a conversation.
I thought it was pretty neat to see people on horseback on some flanking trails

[Pete Lavallee]

Here is a link to my photo tour, there's even a horse picture!

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44822.0.html

link corrected

[Tommy Naccarato]

Patrick:

Also, as you know, the impressive lineup of courses above is a good match for the area from New York to Philadelphia -- and not the whole east coast.  There are 2x or 3x as many great courses to talk about in the East as in the West.  The reasons for this are the population distribution of the country in 1925, and, water availability.

Tom Doak, While you are correct on water availability and population, I think your failing to realize that there were a lot of great golf courses that didn't survive the Great Depression and the War, as well as the redevelopment after.  Per capita, I'd say the point is more comparative, as well as Golf Architecture was really coming together as a whole with the lands in California and Australia. I've always said it was like a school of knowledge that had grown and the golf architects involved were finally getting to take the Porsche for a drive and test and see where and how fast it could go. That wasn't happening like that back East. You had Tillinghast sort of struggling with whatever and Ross simply was a machine designing courses that he had little knowledge of how they were being built.

Meanwhile, you had on the West Coast, parttime midwest residents in William Watson, George O'Neill who influenced William P. Bell  in design, all before he worked with Captain Thomas AND Max Behr. (At Oakmont CC in Glendale) There was John Duncan Dunn, who didn't seem to be getting the same type of work anymore laying out courses, but found success here in California--he even married the daughter of Gaylord Wilshire of Wilshire Boulevard fame. There was Norman Macbeth who designed, or helped design a slew of courses, starting with assisting at LACC, then Brentwood and then in 1919, his beloved Wilshire Country Club home. (A masterpiece/museum piece of its own.)

Assisting all along the way on all of these projects was "Uncle" Edward Tufts, whose power as a sporting goods salesman, tennis player who had the ear of many a wealthy man in early Los Angeles. he was with Joe Satori, one of the founding members of the Los Angeles Country Club; the first and longest running president of the Southern California Golf Association and who recognized Norman Macbeth's calls for year round all-grass greens as soon as they could find a water source, which thanks to William Mullholland, delivered the source via a pipeline and duct way that ran from the foot of the Sierra's Owen's Lake. (And which drained it dry!)(Its still an underground water supply to this day that with a brother that's a geologist, you'll know is a well-known controversy.

The list of NLE's is staggering in Southern California with one of the most dramatic--The Royal Palms being one of the great loses. It was located literally next door to Trump National/Ocean Trails Los Angeles and featured a panoramic view from every hole of the island of Catalina. On somedays you can even see Catalina's famed casino from the very gate for the Royal Palms that still exists in someone's front yard!

These are off of the top of my head. Apologies if I'm missing some:

Captain Thomas NLE's
•Fox Hills (36 holes with W.P. Bell)
•Griffith Park (36 Holes. Too many altered holes form the freeway)(Consulted by Edward Tufts and William Watson)
•La Cumbre (Death by Depression and WWII. Current course designed by W.F. Bell with a two holes following original routing around the lake.
•Red Hill (Original 9 hole course has been rerouted and increased to 18 holes by William P. Bell & Son. Original clubhouse was the still existing Sycamore Inn.)(further screwing up by the late Ken Killian who told the club he was a Thomas expert)
•Saticoy  (Original 9 hole course: Not his. Recent information found by Robert Ball shows the course was designed by Max Behr)

William P. Bell
•The Royal Palms (18, but planned for 36)
•Sunset Fields (36 Holes, with plans for an added Executive 18 and a 9 hole mashie course)
•El Cabellero (18 holes on the old Edgar Rice Burroughs property. Some of it which is where the current El Cabellero is located. (No original holes though) (consultation with Captain George C. Thomas Jr.)
•Santa Susanna (18 Holes in the Santa Susanna Pass)
•Midwick CC (Remodeled this William Watson beauty which is now houses)
•Urban Club (partially on the current Candlewood Country Club)
•Newport Coast Country Club (located under what is now Newport Beach's Fashion Island)
•Mountain Meadows Country Club (With George O'Neill, 18 holes on top of what is now Mountain Meadows Golf Course near the LA County Fairplex
•Pasadena Golf Club (Assisted George O'Neil and then restored after the Great Flood of 1938 with A.W. Tillinghast. Front nine is now the Altadena 9 hole golf course)
•Sepulveda Country Club (Near or in the vicinity of Bel Air Country Club with possible involvement with John Duncan Dunn who served as the club's head professional)
•The Hacienda Hotel Golf Course in San Pedro (9 holes with W.F. Bell)
•Portrero Country Club (18 holes located next door to the Forum)
•California Country Club/Cheviot Hills CC (Remodel of William Watson's original design)
•Whitley Park Country Club (18 hole ladies course that was purportedly so good, the men took over it! Club was eventually destroyed by a massive fire in the hills and not rebuilt.

Norman Macbeth
•St. Andrews Pay As You Play (located on Ventura Blvd, right down the street from El Cabellero CC)

John Duncan Dunn
•El Sereno Country Club (18 holes located on what is now the Ascot Hills above County USC General Hospital)(Wild Bill Melhorn was head pro)
•Lake Elsinore Country Club (18 holes, but was planned for 54, just due South near lake Elsinore's airport)
•The Lake Norconian Grand Resort Supreme (18 holes, see the movie Robert Montgomery movie "Love in the Rough")
•El Merrie Del (18 holes located deep in the hills past Lake View Terrace)
•Idylwild Country Club (9, possibly 18 holes in the mountains above Palm Springs and Hemet)
•The Golfer's Club of Calabasas (18, with 36 planned, originally was looked at by MacKenzie)
•Western Avenue Golf Course (Original 18 hole course at the corner of Manchester Blvd. and Western Ave. that lasted two years before redevelopment)
•Parkridge Country Club, Norco (18 hole course situated on and around a portion of the current Cresta Verde Golf Course)

William Watson
•Midwick Country Club (Original design)
•Del Mar Country Club (Located in hills above and down around Del Mar Fairgrounds)
•Flintridge Country Club (And the 210 Freeway (and houses) run through it, just due North of Brookside #2 Golf Course
•Griffith Park Golf Course (Original 18 hole grass course is now the LA Zoo, Original 18 hole sand greens course is now the Zoo parking lot and a 9 hole pony course that was located past the driving range. he also contributed to the design of the Harding Golf Course with Captain Thomas and Edward Tufts and Max Behr) (all pro bono)
•Sunset Canyon Golf Club (9 Hole Executive or Par 3 course that fell victim to a massive fire in the canyon which also claimed the drop dead beautiful clubhouse)
•Hollywood Country Club (Now houses and Harvard-Westlake Private School)
•Encino Country Club (9 hole course with huge clubhouse with hunting, fishing horseback riding in the hills of Encino)
•Las Turas (18 holes in Woodland Hills on Ventura Blvd.)
•Raymond Hotel (18 holes in South Pasadena, now all houses)
•Inglewood Country Club (a mile due west of the Forum)
•Westward Ho! (9 Hole course located at the corner of Sawtelle and Washington Blvd.)
•Clover Field Golf Course (18 holes located on what is now houses and Santa Monica Airport)
•California Country Club/Cheviot Hills Country Club (18 holes with advice by Norman Macbeth and later remodeling with William P. Bell.)
•Annandale Golf Club (more then likely helped father with original design of Annandale)

Max Behr
•Westwood Hills Pay As You Play Golf Course (18 holes of Max Behr that is now the Nakatomi Bank Building, (from the movie Die Hard) Beverly Hills High School, Creative Artists Agency's "Death Star" (name for the building) etc. in Century City.)
•Montebello Golf Course. (Even though its on the same land, David Rainville destroyed this really fun golf course.)
There are far more, but like I said, those are at the top of my head at 3:11AM in the morning.

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy:

That's a great list of courses, and I have really no sense of any of them.  It would be great if you could document one or two here and how good they really were.

As someone with 2 1/2 NLE's to my own credit -- High Pointe [which may still return!], Beechtree, and Apache Stronghold which gets the 1/2 credit -- I can say that it's possible that you are projecting a bit more onto those courses than they deserve.  All three of mine were cool golf courses, or even very cool golf courses.  But none of them would have made the short list of the best courses in metropolitan NYC or California, for anybody except a real golf architecture junkie like ourselves.  You've probably listed a bunch of others in the same category.  I didn't know there were that many.

[Stephen Davis]

This was a great read Tommy! I am from the LA area and some of these courses were in my backyard and I didn't even know about them. It is interesting that you bring up the gate from The Royal Palms. I know the house that you speak of, but I never made that connection.

[Bill_McBride]

Tommy, I have played a lot at LaCumbre, starting in college 50 years ago.  Aren't there a number of holes at least in their original corridors?  Current 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 8  , 9, 10 (the original 1st down the mountain), 18?

[Garland Bayley]

The real reason is that there a not a bunch of well heeled, affluent, schmoozers like you Patrick that belong to the website out here on the left coast that can report on the old and renowned; and the best and new.



Now if you want to fund Emile in a fashion he would like to become accustomed to, he could be your reporter in the field in the Pacific northwest.

[Tommy Naccarato]

The real reason is that there a not a bunch of well heeled, affluent, schmoozers like you Patrick that belong to the website out here on the left coast that can report on the old and renowned; and the best and new.



Now if you want to fund Emile in a fashion he would like to become accustomed to, he could be your reporter in the field in the Pacific northwest.

Panhandle Bill,
The only corridors in use of the Thomas course at La Cumbre are as follows:

• Hole 1 Same corridor, different hole
• Hole 2 Same corridor, different hole
• Hole 3 Same corridor, different hole with added tee and an extra added island green (UGH!) Hoel is no longer the same length and used to play as either a one-shot or two shot hole, depending on which tee was used. (Thomas Hole with-in a Hole theory)
• Hole 4 Tee shot is same corridor, but instead of playing to a green next to the lake, it goes directly straight to a different green site.
• Hole 17 The famed 16th, only the barranca has been filled and the green enlarged and changed--an entirely different hole.
• Hole 18 Same corridor, different hole

[Tommy Naccarato]

Tommy:

That's a great list of courses, and I have really no sense of any of them.  It would be great if you could document one or two here and how good they really were.

As someone with 2 1/2 NLE's to my own credit -- High Pointe [which may still return!], Beechtree, and Apache Stronghold which gets the 1/2 credit -- I can say that it's possible that you are projecting a bit more onto those courses than they deserve.  All three of mine were cool golf courses, or even very cool golf courses.  But none of them would have made the short list of the best courses in metropolitan NYC or California, for anybody except a real golf architecture junkie like ourselves.  You've probably listed a bunch of others in the same category.  I didn't know there were that many.

Tom,
A very good point, and I will do so when I get some time.

Regarding Cool vs. Very Cool, I think its all very debatable to some extent.  In fact, I would go so far to say that the quirky natural feel of golf was being experienced out here at the next level, and this is why you saw courses like Riviera, LACC, Bel Air, El Cab, Wilshire, and of all, especially Lakeside garner the reputation they deserved. There were a lot more, and once LA84 finishes scanning the Country Club and Pacific Golf & Motor Magazine issues that they have, maybe it would be worth some time to peruse them, then visit what is remaining of the sites.

[Bill_McBride]

The real reason is that there a not a bunch of well heeled, affluent, schmoozers like you Patrick that belong to the website out here on the left coast that can report on the old and renowned; and the best and new.



Now if you want to fund Emile in a fashion he would like to become accustomed to, he could be your reporter in the field in the Pacific northwest.

Panhandle Bill,
The only corridors in use of the Thomas course at La Cumbre are as follows:

• Hole 1 Same corridor, different hole
• Hole 2 Same corridor, different hole
• Hole 3 Same corridor, different hole with added tee and an extra added island green (UGH!) Hoel is no longer the same length and used to play as either a one-shot or two shot hole, depending on which tee was used. (Thomas Hole with-in a Hole theory)
• Hole 4 Tee shot is same corridor, but instead of playing to a green next to the lake, it goes directly straight to a different green site.
• Hole 17 The famed 16th, only the barranca has been filled and the green enlarged and changed--an entirely different hole.
• Hole 18 Same corridor, different hole

That island green is truly a piece of shit, literally so as coots hang out there.  Now the 13th hole, it is also totally redundant as the original hole, a 200+ yard par 3 almost Redan around the lake, could be the best par 3 around. 

[RJ_Daley]

Well, I can stop scanning the background and spectators for a Tommy sighting, and just watch the golf... since he is posting on GCA.com at present!!!!